2012 NBA Draft

[Dat2U]

I still have Perry Jones III over Sullinger. By a lot. Jones played his first game Tuesday and looked real good scoring 27 on 10-14 albeit it was against weak competition. Still he had a couple of head turning moves including one where he attacked the rim on a delayed break against multiple defenders and looked like a 6-6 SF the way dribbled, planted, dipped his head, shielded the ball and exploded to the rim the finish.

He's a legit 6-10 and looks to be a solid 225/230.

Dude is a freak of nature and a matchup nightmare waiting to happen.

[Dat2U]

Wow, Ruz is agreeing with me! Let's go listen to the Allmans together to celebrate!

I loves listening to the Allman Bros. Yeah, I was skeptical about his ceiling, but every time I see him, he's better than he used to be. Look at Steve Nash. He's small, he's an average athlete... He's a freaking 2 time NBA MVP, because he's super-smart and has amazing instincts and self-confidence. Sullinger has those kind of intangibles.

When is the last time the Wizards had a super-smart player? Juwan might have pilfered shades but he did maximize his ability in a big way one season. Is Sullinger better than Howard? Yes, I do think he is.

Put me onboard for liking another round PF.

There are better players and I'm not as excited by him as a player like Faried, but Sullinger will succeed at the next level. Whoever said Zach Randolph, that's better than the Boozer comparison I was making before. Sullinger can be a Randolph at the next level. Zach was labeled a thug for his off court stuff, but if you saw this last playoffs, you witnessed a very smart, confident player in Randolph.

Zach has legit NBA length. Zach also seems lighter & quicker on his feet. Looking at Sully, man he is really a plodder. Although Sully has skill and smarts he doesn't have craftiness of a Randolph or Al Jefferson in the paint. Sully is efficient, hard working & smart as whip and there's no doubting that he'll help an NBA team in some capacity. But as a top 10 PF? That's really pushing beyond the edge of what I think he can do.

[fishercob]

Again, this is a great discussion and I'm grateful that we're having it.

I feel the need to say this every time I post about Sullinger: how he measures out will be pretty important.

That said, the Zach Randolph comparison is indeed an interesting one. Zach played a single year at Michigan State on a Final Four team with Jason Richardson, Charlie Bell, et al. He averaged close to 11 and 7 on 59% shooting (64% from the line) in just under 20 minutes a game. I couldn't find any advanced stats on him, but it's pretty clear that on a per minute basis his scoring and rebounding was pretty close to what Sully put up last year. The main difference of course is that Sullinger actually played those minutes (and not Andre Hutson or Aloysius Anagonye).

No one ever questioned Randolph's skill set. It was his genera immaturity that caused him to fall to 19th a pretty mediocre draft (especially in the late lotto and teens -- Kirk Haston, Michael Bradley and Jason Collins all went earlier) and play for four teams in ten years. He made a believer out of a lot of people in the playoffs, but one has to ask "what if he had a good head on his shoulders from the outset?" Remember this??

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh2fn01cngg[/youtube]

So back to Sullinger, we've got a guy who was similarly productive to Zach on a per minute basis, but plays a much bigger role. He's got a great head on his shoulders, loves and is a student of the game and is said to have a great work ethic. I do see Dat's point that Zach seems a little lighter on his feet. but that's now. My sense is it took Zach a long while to get into the condition he is now. Sully is going to have to continue to work on his body, but given the results and progress he's already shown, there's reason for optimism in that department.

[Rafael122]

The biggest difference to me is that Zach and Boozer can hit the 15 footer. Does Sullinger even have a jump shot? If he had a money J, I wouldn't have a problem taking him early in the draft.

[fishercob]

Check out the video on page 8 of this thread. The announcers allude to it, but word is that he indeed has a J, but Matta keeps him close to the hole for obvious reasons. He'll need to step away and hit that jumper at the next level.

[fishercob]

I didn't see the game, but it looks like Harrison Barnes had a good one last night on a bum ankle against a tough Wisconsin team.

If you go to the recap here, you can see a good highlight package including a nice Barnes montage. 14 second half points. He doesn't seem to do much off the dribble, which sort of reminds me of Caron.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=313340153

[pcbothwel]

Caron was 6'5.25 with a 6'11" wingspan at 222lbs with a 31' max vert. Barnes will be at least 2 inches taller, 2 inches longer at the same weight (no fat) and about 37 inch vert. So if you told me I could have a Caron butler offesive game(Barnes is a much better catch & shooter) with significantly higher BBIQ and defensive skills, I would ask where do I sign.

i've said all along that Barnes is a sleeping giant. He will quietly have a very strong year and allow the team to form cohesiveness. Then, when the big games come up and the 4th quarter comes around this kid is gonna explode on national television.

[nate33]

I thought Barnes looked pretty good in that Wisconsin game. He made some nice ball fakes and dribble drives to generate space for his pull up jumper. I'd like to see him take it all the way to the hole a lot more, but there's no doubt that he has a very good midrange game and 3-point shot. My biggest concern with him is that he still doesn't show a knack for getting to the free throw line. It's almost impossible to score with efficiency in the NBA unless you can draw fouls.

[fugop]

Agreed that Sullinger's future will be measurement driven. I think a better comparison for him might be Elton Brand, though -- he's got a similar build and college skillset, though it's not clear if he has Brand's long arms.

[Ruzious]

I thought Barnes looked pretty good in that Wisconsin game. He made some nice ball fakes and dribble drives to generate space for his pull up jumper. I'd like to see him take it all the way to the hole a lot more, but there's no doubt that he has a very good midrange game and 3-point shot. My biggest concern with him is that he still doesn't show a knack for getting to the free throw line. It's almost impossible to score with efficiency in the NBA unless you can draw fouls.

Yeah, I've watched a bunch of UNC games and have still yet to see him successfully drive all the way to the basket - and he looks awkward trying to drive. I'm not saying he can't improve on that, but the player he is right now is entirely dependent on teammates creating for him in half court sets. And that's why he suddenly improved dramatically when Larry Drew was replaced at PG. He cannot create for himself. I'll say what I've said several times - Henson is the best player on UNC and Henson's the best NBA prospect on UNC.

[Ruzious]

Caron was 6'5.25 with a 6'11" wingspan at 222lbs with a 31' max vert. Barnes will be at least 2 inches taller, 2 inches longer at the same weight (no fat) and about 37 inch vert. So if you told me I could have a Caron butler offesive game(Barnes is a much better catch & shooter) with significantly higher BBIQ and defensive skills, I would ask where do I sign.

i've said all along that Barnes is a sleeping giant. He will quietly have a very strong year and allow the team to form cohesiveness. Then, when the big games come up and the 4th quarter comes around this kid is gonna explode on national television.

That's Caron's height without shoes. He usually played with shoes. And the Caron that started out with the Wiz and was so successful because he actually did drive to the basket enough to keep defenses honest and passed very well. Later on - under Flip - he stopped the driving and stopped the passing and became a very inefficient player who hurt the team and was just brutal to watch.

And btw, Barnes has yet to show quality passing skills. Right now, that's another weakness in his game.

[pcbothwel]

I know thats Carons height w/o shoes. Barnes will be 2+ inches taller regardless of the fact of wearing shoes (im not sure of you point). Caron was a tough, hard-nosed player;however, he had physical limitations and average Bball IQ. Barnes has an off the charts IQ with good (not quite elite) athleticsm and NBA size/strength/legnth. None of the Soph. are in his class except for J. Lamb (P. Jones is too raw and not physical enough, maybe the light turns on though).

[fishercob]

I'd be excited to add Barnes. And that's the cool thing about this draft, provided the age limit stays the same. There are a number of guys I'd be excited to add. I'm not excited about Vesely. Intrigued? Sure, maybe. But Davis, Drummond, Barnes, Beal, Sullinger, Jones, Miller, Rivers, Lamb, Robinson, etc.?? We're going to get a very good player one way or the other.

[nate33]

I thought Barnes looked pretty good in that Wisconsin game. He made some nice ball fakes and dribble drives to generate space for his pull up jumper. I'd like to see him take it all the way to the hole a lot more, but there's no doubt that he has a very good midrange game and 3-point shot. My biggest concern with him is that he still doesn't show a knack for getting to the free throw line. It's almost impossible to score with efficiency in the NBA unless you can draw fouls.

Yeah, I've watched a bunch of UNC games and have still yet to see him successfully drive all the way to the basket - and he looks awkward trying to drive. I'm not saying he can't improve on that, but the player he is right now is entirely dependent on teammates creating for him in half court sets. And that's why he suddenly improved dramatically when Larry Drew was replaced at PG. He cannot create for himself. I'll say what I've said several times - Henson is the best player on UNC and Henson's the best NBA prospect on UNC.

I thought he showed some nice moves to create for himself out of the triple threat. He'll be able to get shots off in the NBA without help from a PG. The problem is, they'll be jump shots. His instinct is to pull up before he gets within 15 feet.

[Ruzious]

I thought Barnes looked pretty good in that Wisconsin game. He made some nice ball fakes and dribble drives to generate space for his pull up jumper. I'd like to see him take it all the way to the hole a lot more, but there's no doubt that he has a very good midrange game and 3-point shot. My biggest concern with him is that he still doesn't show a knack for getting to the free throw line. It's almost impossible to score with efficiency in the NBA unless you can draw fouls.

Yeah, I've watched a bunch of UNC games and have still yet to see him successfully drive all the way to the basket - and he looks awkward trying to drive. I'm not saying he can't improve on that, but the player he is right now is entirely dependent on teammates creating for him in half court sets. And that's why he suddenly improved dramatically when Larry Drew was replaced at PG. He cannot create for himself. I'll say what I've said several times - Henson is the best player on UNC and Henson's the best NBA prospect on UNC.

I thought he showed some nice moves to create for himself out of the triple threat. He'll be able to get shots off in the NBA without help from a PG. The problem is, they'll be jump shots. His instinct is to pull up before he gets within 15 feet.

I'm telling you, the triple threat doesn't work against good defenders if you don't have 1 of the threats - driving. We saw that with Caron Bultler. He used the triple threat over and over in his last year here - and when defenders saw that almost every time he was sure to shoot, he was extremely easy to defend and was awful. And right now, Barnes really doesn't have 2 of the threats, because he is not a good passer, either. Now, could he improve? Yes. Should we assume he'll improve? I don't know.

[Dat2U]

Harrison Barnes is too limited off the bounce to be a star at the next level. He also plays a bit stiff. I see a quality starting SF but more in the mold of Sean Elliott. Solid, high character knock down shooter who's best served being a 3rd or high quality fourth option.

Right now I have Barnes 6th or 7th on my board.

Sully is somewhere around 10-12.

[fishercob]

Dat, it's December 1. I think you should release your big board in the first of every month. Tell us what your board looks like today!

[7-Day Dray]

Barnes is a cross between Luol Deng & Danny Granger.

[Dat2U]

Dat, it's December 1. I think you should release your big board in the first of every month. Tell us what your board looks like today!

LOL. I haven't seen half the players yet. I feel comfortable about talking about Sully & Barnes and the upperclassmen b/c I've seen them. Not so much when it comes to the frosh although I love what I saw from Anthony Davis thus far.

1. Davis
2. Drummond
3. Jones III
4. Robinson
5. Henson
6. Miller
7. Beal
8. Barnes
9. Lamb
10. Gilchrist

[Rafael122]

Anthony Davis: 4 pts, 5 rebounds, 4 blocks. And we're only about 9 minutes into the game. Just a beast.

And Jones is hitting that outside jumper. Surprised Dat didn't put him in his top 10.