TUF 14 (FW/BW); Finale (Bisping vs. Miller) 12/3 on Spike TV

[REDDzone]

Herb Dean's terrible now.

I've been saying for awhile that there are no good mma refs in the business.

Looking more and more like I was wrong all along, but not for the reasons people stated (Big John and Herb Dean), but because of Josh Rosenthal. Can anyone think of any real bad stuff he's been involved with? I can't. At least not lately. So maybe he's always been competent. If not, maybe he is improving at the very least.

[Nemesis21]

Rosenthal is definitely the best ref.

If it were up to me Rosenthal, Dean, Goddard, Big John McCarthy, and Jason Herzog would be the only refs allowed near a cage.

I think Goddard is very good. By far the best of the Brit refs.

I'll agree with that part.

[Cammo101]

I think Herb Dean is a very good ref. He occasionally stops fights a bit too quick, but they are almost always the kind of fight where you go "that was an early stoppage, but I doubt it would have mattered".

[singh_shady]

I think Herb Dean is a very good ref. He occasionally stops fights a bit too quick, but they are almost always the kind of fight where you go "that was an early stoppage, but I doubt it would have mattered".

It's this exact attitude that is giving refs an excuse to do their job poorly.. It's BS in my opinion. Yeah, TJ was probably going to lose anyways but the fact is we don't know.. I'm not as down on Herb as some people here are, but if he was reffing the Shogun/Hendo match, we would have been robbed of an all time classic because he would have stopped that fight in the 3rd.. And we all know how the subsequent rounds played out. The Cung Le/Wandy fight was another recent example.

I know it's tough and refs like to err on the side of caution, but I don't like these early stoppages. It's one thing when a dude is just turtling up while getting battered but it's too early to stop a fight when a guy is going for a single or trying to change position.

All that said, there hasn't been an absolutely terrible stoppage in a little while right? Can't think of one off the top of my head. The reffing is gradually improving I think.

[REDDzone]

Great first point, singh.

I'd say the reffing has been better overall lately, although the event in October may have been the worst reffed event in history lol, so that is definitely one recent blemish. Not to mention, we are only pretty much talking ufc here. Unfortunately, smaller promotion mma reffing has a long, long way to go. And I'm not talking small town stuff, but for example I watched the Tachi Palace event this Friday night and some of the reffing there was just absurd. The refs we see in ufc occasionally ref these smaller promotions, but there are also refs in the smaller promotions that we don't really see in ufc.

[spykelee]

Don't forget that the first point of a ref is fighter safety... There supposed to get in there and prevent a guy from taking any unnescecary damage. This is a very difficult sport to officiate when you think of it like that.

There's enevitably going to be some bad stopages. I think Herb by and large has done a great job. In that Dillishaw fight, I'd have to re-watch it, but if Rogan is correct, in that TJ got up and was all wobbily, then I think it was a fine stoppage. You don't want a young guy like that taking 3-4-5 extra shots just because he "might" come back.

It's also somewhat fighter specific, a warrior and a veteran like Shogun and Hendo and Couture etc are going to get more benefit than an unproven guy. By and large, I think Big John, Rosenthal, and Herb probably bat around 80-85% and given the nature of the jobs in the sport there refering, I think that's about as good as it get's.

[CPT]

I still think the fact that it was Dodson played a part. I don't remember if Herb was the one who reffed the Dodson/Bedford fight on the show, but he obviously watched it. In that fight, Dodson got like 6 hard shots in on a defenseless Bedford. Herb may have jumped the gun to stop that from happening again.

It's not like Dillashaw sprung up and he was fine either. He was dazed, and if you don't want the ref to stop a fight, when there's a guy punching you in the head, try stopping him from doing that instead of clinging onto his leg for dear life.

Same thing with the Wandy/Cung Le stoppage a few weeks back.

[Cammo101]

Herb may have stopped that fight a bit early, but Dillashaw got up on rubber legs after the stoppage. He was not going to recover and turn the tide.

IMO there is a difference between a slightly early stoppage where a guy is seriously hurt and a bad stoppage where a guy is not seriously hurt. Herb has a few of the first, but I can't remember him having any of the second. Herb, like Rosenthal, knows MMA well and has saved a lot of fighters a lot of damage over the years by knowing when to stop a fight.

[singh_shady]

I'd have to re-watch it, but if Rogan is correct, in that TJ got up and was all wobbily, then I think it was a fine stoppage. You don't want a young guy like that taking 3-4-5 extra shots just because he "might" come back.

I still think the fact that it was Dodson played a part. I don't remember if Herb was the one who reffed the Dodson/Bedford fight on the show, but he obviously watched it. In that fight, Dodson got like 6 hard shots in on a defenseless Bedford. Herb may have jumped the gun to stop that from happening again.

IMO there is a difference between a slightly early stoppage where a guy is seriously hurt and a bad stoppage where a guy is not seriously hurt.

All good points, it's a tough thing for sure

[singh_shady]

I'd say the reffing has been better overall lately, although the event in October may have been the worst reffed event in history lol, so that is definitely one recent blemish. Not to mention, we are only pretty much talking ufc here. Unfortunately, smaller promotion mma reffing has a long, long way to go. And I'm not talking small town stuff, but for example I watched the Tachi Palace event this Friday night and some of the reffing there was just absurd. The refs we see in ufc occasionally ref these smaller promotions, but there are also refs in the smaller promotions that we don't really see in ufc.

Can't comment on the smaller promotions because I don't really have time to watch them, I guess that's just an issue with minor leagues in any sport. But yeah, if Mazzagatti is allowed to ref in Nevada for the UFC, I shudder to think about the reffing in smaller promotions..

Anyways, we can all agree that judging is a much bigger issue. Collectively, the refs as a whole are fantastic compared to the judges.

[Starkiller]

I've never had any issues with any matches I can remember Rosenthal reffing. IMO, he's the best.

[cowboyronnie]

re: smaller promotions...

http://www.thescore.com/mma/articles/17 ... k-mma-wrap

watch from 1:40 on, watch the referee's positioning. that kid might never be the same.

MMA can't have small events until there are enough referees. I'm reminded of that event that Couture's wife was in where she was held in a choke for 4-5 secs after being unconscious. somewhere in Alberta.

[SDM]

^ That was awful. How do these guys not know to check the fighter immediately after a slam? He's in the centre of the cage!

[Headliner]

Ya, that's terrible.
I'm sorry, but age limits need to be a thought as well. We're talking reaction time, and that ref in that video was sauntering half across the ring and didn't even react to a huge slam.
(and Robin Black should never be allowed in HD)


Here is another I watched.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pR36gmHeLQ[/youtube]


Watch from 23 seconds on for atrocious reffing. I could 7 shots on an unconscious guy. Most were body, but that is way beside the point.
(watch 10 seconds on for an awesome highlight).

[CPT]

Heard an excellent potential opponent for Miller's next fight...

Tom Lawlor.

Both guys are coming off fairly one sided losses, and their antics leading up to the fight could be epic. Most of all, it's probably the most competitive fight out there for Miller while maintaining some kind of name value.

[jTF2]

Here is another I watched.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pR36gmHeLQ[/youtube]


Watch from 23 seconds on for atrocious reffing. I could 7 shots on an unconscious guy. Most were body, but that is way beside the point.
(watch 10 seconds on for an awesome highlight).

not the greatest example IMO. If anything, I thought the ref did his job perfectly. The bomb body shots did not take him out although he was clearly woozy and that's why the ref didn't stop it at that moment. Two shots to the head later and the ref had seen enough as he went limp again.

[Nemesis21]

All TUF 14 Finale drug tests come back clean.

http://mmajunkie.com/news/26521/tuf-14- ... om+Feed%29