Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player

Brenice · Post #281 » by **Brenice** » Wed Dec 7, 2011 9:52 pm

No, you want it to be flawed. You win as a team and you lose as a team. Nash won and lost as part of the team. The problem is nobody adapted/altered did anything to make Phoenix win a championship. Isiah, no matter whether you want to acknowledge it or not, altered his game and led a 'any means necessary' mindset in Detroit. Or did that mindset not exist on the Bad Boys? He was a part of the solution.

Also, if you want it to look at his career as a whole, then yes, those other years he was part of his problem. But Nash was part of the problem his every year of his career, to date. If that's how you want to look at it.

Post #282 » by **rrravenred** » Wed Dec 7, 2011 11:46 pm

Sooo... Nash is at fault because he wasn't a coach and GM as well as a player? Does that make sense?

We've seen Isiah as a coach and as a GM, and the results weren't outstanding (FWIW, I think his status as a punching bag for Knicks fans is a bit unfair). Now you can argue that his situations in Detroit and NY were so blindingly different as to be not comparable or that Isiah has changed as a person so much since his playing days that once again it's not a comparable situation, but still, I'm really asking HOW he changed the game and whether or not Isiah was the key factor in the positive changes identified.

ronnymac2 · Post #283 » by **ronnymac2** » Wed Dec 7, 2011 11:58 pm

rrravenred wrote:We've seen Isiah as a coach and as a GM, and the results weren't outstanding (FWIW, I think his status as a punching bag for Knicks fans is a bit unfair).

He deserves everything Knicks fans dish out and more...

Rapcity_11 · Post #284 » by **Rapcity_11** » Thu Dec 8, 2011 12:26 am

Sacrificing your personal game, while a nice thing to do isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for an argument about who's the better player...

And this idea that anything other than a title is a failure for an individual is ridiculous.

Laimbeer · Post #285 » by **Laimbeer** » Thu Dec 8, 2011 1:00 am

JordansBulls wrote:So from 1987-1990 using Nash 2005-2008 in place of Isiah, how many titles do the Pistons win?

More fun, more points, less defense and attitude, no titles.

ahonui06 · Post #286 » by **ahonui06** » Thu Dec 8, 2011 1:43 am

Laimbeer wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:So from 1987-1990 using Nash 2005-2008 in place of Isiah, how many titles do the Pistons win?

More fun, more points, less defense and attitude, no titles.

Sounds like a good hypothesis.

Post #287 » by **Doctor MJ** » Thu Dec 8, 2011 3:42 am

Brenice wrote:But Nash supporters will include Nash in the above list. Then they want to look at the impact a Bird, Russell, Magic had coming into the league while dismissing the fact that Isiah's rookie team did not compare. Then, what was Steve Nash's impact when he came into the league?

Answers here are really not hard:

-Nash was an unknown drafted into a position where he couldn't possibly be expected to have impact.
-Nash's top skills are ones which cannot be seen to their full extent except by truly unleashing him and giving him creative freedom. The less obvious the talent, the more likely it will never get properly identified and utilized

Brenice wrote:Were they better players than Zeke? Yes, but inch for inch? No. Zeke was the greatest 6ft and under player to play ball. Notice, on your list you have nobody under 6'6".

Inch-for-inch comparisons are completely and utterly pointless. It's lovely that Muggsy Bogues did what he did at 5'3", but it doesn't make him any better of a player.

Also, people have this weird tendency to look at height as unearned but other talents earned and it's just wrong and annoying. If Isiah was taller, maybe he'd be better...and if Magic were quicker like a guy a foot shooter, maybe he'd be better. The reality is that neither can really help what they are, just like the rest of us, and Isiah's just really damn lucky to be born with the 1 in a million talent he does have.

The only thing is even debatably in a player's control is his decision making, and there it was Isiah's choice to playing scoring point guard when at that height the more valuable player is the one focused first and foremost on distribution.

I will also note that I consider Nash's offensive impact to really be in the ballpark with anyone who ever played despite him being shorter than 6'6" and having more fast twitch limitations than the majority of point guards out there.

Brenice wrote:Not Iverson, not, an Arenas, not a Parker. Could he have gunned like an Iverson his whole career, yes, but he didn't. He changed his game. He got the team involved.

I certainly rate Isiah above those other guys.

Brenice wrote:He instilled an aggressive, take no prisoners mentality to the team. And they won. Was he the best defender on Detroit. I have NEVER said he was. What I said was he was the fighter on that team. He was the heart and soul of that team. He was the leader. He did what was best for that team and they ended up winning.

I've understood all this before and hence why I said: You're talking about giving Isiah a huge boost into (near) Magic/Bird/Jordan levels based not on his ability to play basketball, but simply based on intangible leadership. I'm not saying I reject that outright, but you have to understand what an uphill battle you're running into not just with me but with people in general. Doesn't make you wrong, but you need to understand that it's not that everyone agrees with you, and we're a few outliers. A lot of people disagree with you because they don't share your faith in the magnitude of Isiah's intangibles, and you'll really need to work to change minds. If that's not something you'll enjoy, I suggest you live and let live.

Brenice wrote:Did that mean he had to sacrifice his scoring, yes. When he needed to score, he was more than capable of taking absolutely over, ala Jordan, ala Wade. Maybe not in the same 'above the rim' fashion, but he certainly did take over when necessary, and in late round playoff games too.

This though is delusional. Isiah had some wonderful games, but if he were capable of scoring 25 points in a quarter on a regular basis, he should have been doing it. There is no "sacrifice for the good of the team" that makes sense if a player is regularly that good.

Of course the reality is: No one is that good. Every player is capable of streaks, and those are lovely, but you can't let yourself get carried away with the idea that a player can turn it on as needed. This is the track Kobe supporter regularly fall into as well btw.

Brenice wrote:Here is a question for you, why did the Mailman savagely elbow Zeke? The answer is because Zeke torched Stocked, a better defender than Nash, for 40 points, in the previous game between the two teams.

Again, you need to think about this rationally. If Isiah were capable of regularly torching good defenders for 40+ points efficiently, he'd have been doing it. Doesn't mean Isiah doesn't deserve credit for what he did, but if you think Isiah was capable of Jordan-esque numbers regularly and he didn't because that wasn't in the best interest of the team you're just wrong. (it's not even like Isiah was doing this on great balanced offenses, Jordan's best team offenses were significantly more effective than Isiah's.)

Post #288 » by **Doctor MJ** » Thu Dec 8, 2011 3:45 am

Brenice wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Brenice wrote:we are comparing what Zeke did at age 20 to 30 that led ultimately to success to what Nash did in his 30's that led inevitably to failure.

No actually, what my side is doing is trying to explain to you that nothing is inevitable, and serial linkage of correlations toward assumed inevitable causation is the root problem with your thinking.

No. You play to win. The Pistons, led by Isiah, did what was best for them to put themselves into position to win. Guess what. It worked.

Again, if you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem. Zeke was a part of the solution. He changed his game and helped change the mentality of the Pistons. Why, because he knew what it took and his ego was not in the way.

Yes, circumstances can happen, like with the Suns, that derail your plans. But at some point, you run out of excuses. Nash looks like he will go down in lore like Ewing, Mailman, Stockton, Barkley, Reggie Miller, Dominique Wilkins, etc. Maybe he can get lucky like a Jason Kidd and join SOMEBODY ELSE's team and win.

Yeah we're not getting anywhere. You don't live in a rational world my friend. You want to believe that every player gets ample opportunity to win, and thus whoever wins with their team is the best player, but the reality is that by any objective standards team sports deals with small sample size mixed with a large dose of luck for individual players.

I turn to the great xkcd...

ElGee · Post #289 » by **ElGee** » Thu Dec 8, 2011 4:15 am

Give Brenice a break. He's busy replacing a bunch of electronics in his house. See, he couldn't get online earlier, so instead of checking his modem (to make it work), or his router, or his network settings, he simply decided everything was part of the problem and he's been at Best Buy for the last hour buying everything from a mouse to a new computer to brand spankin new ethernet cable.

Rapcity_11 · Post #290 » by **Rapcity_11** » Thu Dec 8, 2011 4:26 am

Haha, the last two posts were awesome.

Post #291 » by **Doctor MJ** » Thu Dec 8, 2011 4:26 am

ElGee wrote:Give Brenice a break. He's busy replacing a bunch of electronics in his house. See, he couldn't get online earlier, so instead of checking his modem (to make it work), or his router, or his network settings, he simply decided everything was part of the problem and he's been at Best Buy for the last hour buying everything from a mouse to a new computer to brand spankin new ethernet cable.

Oh but he didn't quite do that. See nothing truly matters except the CPU, so he's going to get a new CPU, and a new one after that, and continue until it works. Perhaps he'll take one in the shower with him and start slapping it. Man those people who say silly things like "Dude, your mouse and keyboard aren't plugged in" are just the type of whiners he's got to push past in order to get things done.

(Sorry Brenice, couldn't resist.)

Post #292 » by **rrravenred** » Thu Dec 8, 2011 6:33 am

To extend the metaphor, Brenice is convinced that it's his plucky little single-core processor that's allowing him to run Crysis (ignoring the four grand graphics card, massive cooling fan, extra RAM and an OS finely tuned to play one specific game).

easiestplayfts · Post #293 » by **easiestplayfts** » Thu Dec 8, 2011 7:38 am

Let's see 3 NBA finals, 2 championships and 1 finals MVP vs never even making an NBA finals appearance.
Ummm......I'll take Isiah Thomas.

Rapcity_11 · Post #294 » by **Rapcity_11** » Thu Dec 8, 2011 7:41 am

easiestplayfts wrote:Let's see 3 NBA finals, 2 championships and 1 finals MVP vs never even making an NBA finals appearance.
Ummm......I'll take Isiah Thomas.

3 NBA finals, 3 championships and 1 finals MVP vs. never even making an NBA finals appearance.
Ummm......I'll take Tony Parker.

Oh wait........

GodDamnRobin · Post #295 » by **GodDamnRobin** » Thu Dec 8, 2011 7:42 am

Oh, but it is the CPU. He just hasn't found one that is a winner yet. The rest of his computer is letting the CPU down. If he just upgrades the rest of his computer for parts that are twice as good, he'll have a good computer finally... The CPU knows how to will the new parts into working harder.

easiestplayfts · Post #296 » by **easiestplayfts** » Thu Dec 8, 2011 7:46 am

Rapcity_11 wrote:
easiestplayfts wrote:Let's see 3 NBA finals, 2 championships and 1 finals MVP vs never even making an NBA finals appearance.
Ummm......I'll take Isiah Thomas.

3 NBA finals, 3 championships and 1 finals MVP vs. never even making an NBA finals appearance.
Ummm......I'll take Tony Parker.

Oh wait........

I thought this thread was Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player.????

Rapcity_11 · Post #297 » by **Rapcity_11** » Thu Dec 8, 2011 7:47 am

easiestplayfts wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
easiestplayfts wrote:Let's see 3 NBA finals, 2 championships and 1 finals MVP vs never even making an NBA finals appearance.
Ummm......I'll take Isiah Thomas.

3 NBA finals, 3 championships and 1 finals MVP vs. never even making an NBA finals appearance.
Ummm......I'll take Tony Parker.

Oh wait........

I thought this thread was Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player.????

That doesn't mean it's okay to use stupid logic to draw conclusions.

I'm just exposing how weak that argument is.

GodDamnRobin · Post #298 » by **GodDamnRobin** » Thu Dec 8, 2011 7:49 am

easiestplayfts wrote:Let's see 3 NBA finals, 2 championships and 1 finals MVP vs never even making an NBA finals appearance.
Ummm......I'll take Isiah Thomas.

By that logic Dumars must have some equal claim to greatness as Isiah.

Post #299 » by **rrravenred** » Thu Dec 8, 2011 7:59 am

easiestplayfts wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
easiestplayfts wrote:Let's see 3 NBA finals, 2 championships and 1 finals MVP vs never even making an NBA finals appearance.
Ummm......I'll take Isiah Thomas.

3 NBA finals, 3 championships and 1 finals MVP vs. never even making an NBA finals appearance.
Ummm......I'll take Tony Parker.

Oh wait........

I thought this thread was Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player.????

So, asking an honest question, do you rate Tony Parker above Steve Nash?

easiestplayfts · Post #300 » by **easiestplayfts** » Thu Dec 8, 2011 8:07 am

^^^^Stupidity Rapcity_11 ..... is not being able to follow one train of thought (or thread topic). Anybody can make broad generalizations.
Topic: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player
For example some people might take Baron Davis, Deron Williams and Magic over Nash. And this could go on and on and on. And thats off topic...genuises.

On topic :I'll take Isiah over Nash