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Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong

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Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong 

Post#1 » by baulderdash77 » Thu Dec 8, 2011 4:05 am

This is going to be a long post so bear with me.

Kyle Drabek went from being our top prospect bar none to an afterthought in just one season. In my 25 years of watching baseball I've never seen a guy fall apart like that in a season. He went from being a great fastball/curveball pitcher who mixed in a developing cutter to a cutter pitcher who stopped throwing his curveball and was throwing fastballs upstairs and straight in a season.

Up until this season he never showed that he would have control problems and continually showed that he would be a dominant pitcher.

His first 3 MLB starts in 2010 were all quality starts. After his first 5 starts in 2011 he had a 3.30 ERA and we were all talking ROY. Then the Yankees ate him alive and he started to unwind. His next 5 starts he actually posted a 3.86 ERA but we were all getting worried because of the walks. June 1 rolled around and he turned into a garbage pitcher overnight and never got his mojo working again.

I think Drabek is going to take the off-season, get his head right and come back next season totally focused and we'll be surprised in a pleasant way.

Just remember this guy and keep in mind that he's still at least our #5 starter and could still be our #3 starter next year and he's not to be written off.

Last offseason's scouting report:
Drabek’s best pitch is his hard spike-curveball. He often throws his curve as hard as 85-86 mph, and generally keeps it in the 81-84 mph range. With the potential to be one of the better curveballs among American League starters, Drabek has used the pitch’s sharp break to rack up groundballs and strikeouts during his minor league career. His curveball has allowed him to neutralize right-handed power-hitters, and to keep the lefties from sitting on his four-seamer.

Drabek has developed a formidable trio of fastballs during the past two seasons. He throws a power four-seamer, a tailing two-seamer and a boring cutter. His four-seamer sits in the 92-94 mph range, rand can reach 96-97 mph. Although he throws the pitch with premium velocity, his 4-seam fastball often straightens out and makes him susceptible to home runs and deep flies.

Drabek’s massive platoon splits encouraged him to put more work in honing his cutter and two-seam fastball. In doing so he’s become a more complete starter and has done a better job dealing with left-handed batters. His two-seamer sits around 90-91 mph, and has nice ride to it. He commands the pitch fairly well to both sides of the plate– though he’ll let it sail when he’s tiring or out of sync. His cut-fastball is the newest addition to his arsenal, and he uses the boring action to jam left-handed batters. With more work the pitch could develop in to a weapon.
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Re: Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong 

Post#2 » by Kapono » Thu Dec 8, 2011 4:13 am

:(

I remember he got off to a great start to the season. Had a great season opener vs the Twins and then followed it up with a pretty good win over the Angels

:(
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Re: Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong 

Post#3 » by darth_federer » Thu Dec 8, 2011 4:57 am

Not sure how that was a long post and I hope for my generation that it isnt but yes Drabek had a breakdown. His walk rate was among the highest in the league and his emotions got the better of him. But he ll get better after the experience.
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Re: Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong 

Post#4 » by UN-Owen » Thu Dec 8, 2011 5:18 am

I was disappointed that he was the main piece coming back in the Halladay trade. I always thought Dominic Brown should've been included instead

Much like when Clemens was traded to the Yankees, the Jays settled for less than their top prospect. The asking price then should've been Soriano and Pettitte for Clemens

I wouldn't hesitate to include him in a deal
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Re: Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong 

Post#5 » by SharoneWright » Thu Dec 8, 2011 6:12 am

This thread topic is so critical to the Jays success. It wasn't that long ago he was top-end material... Now it comes down to whether Kyle has the ability to simply hold down a rotation spot and the domino effects that will surely have on other moves. It seems like he went from #1 prospect to unmitigated bust in about 8 seconds.... Job #1 is to get his head right.

I also do wish he was about 2 inches taller. Job #2 I guess....
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Re: Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong 

Post#6 » by wbbfan » Thu Dec 8, 2011 6:24 am

He isnt a premium pitcher, hes a premium prospect whose trending down a bit. Not all prospects blow into the MLB and are ROY type forces. Some guys have to ease in, and take several stabs. Roy halladay ended up back in High A after hitting mlb before he became a regular.
A guy like this though, you dont give up on easily. Ricky romero struggled with breaking into the mlb a bit too. Hope fully its just some adjustments and being more focused.
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Re: Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong 

Post#7 » by satyr9 » Thu Dec 8, 2011 12:39 pm

UN-Owen wrote:I was disappointed that he was the main piece coming back in the Halladay trade. I always thought Dominic Brown should've been included instead

Much like when Clemens was traded to the Yankees, the Jays settled for less than their top prospect. The asking price then should've been Soriano and Pettitte for Clemens

I wouldn't hesitate to include him in a deal


Imagine if we'd re-signed Soriano and Wells at the same time? It's not relevant, but that just flashed before my eyes and it might've broken me as a Jays fan.
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Re: Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong 

Post#8 » by LBJSeizedMyID » Thu Dec 8, 2011 1:40 pm

I was put in my place last year when I said I'd rather see him spend a full year in AAA, but most here said PCL pitchers are where "they go to die" and is better served developing with the big club. This is the kind of crap you have to deal with I guess when a guy gets called up too early.

Pitchers generally take longer to develop I find than hitters so hoping last year was more a mechanics issue than him being injured.
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Re: Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong 

Post#9 » by tecumseh18 » Thu Dec 8, 2011 1:44 pm

UN-Owen wrote:I was disappointed that he was the main piece coming back in the Halladay trade. I always thought Dominic Brown should've been included instead



Never forget that AA's hands were tied by the no-trade clause. He was in a high stakes poker hand with a pair of deuces.

But it is unbelievable that we still don't have a 24-man MLB roster guy in return giving away the best pitcher of his generation. Of course, we still have high hopes for D'Arnaud and Gose. But now we're switching to win-now mode and those guys are years away, and who the hell knows when Drabek will get his head together? Trading chips for Votto, I suppose.
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Re: Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong 

Post#10 » by Anatomize » Thu Dec 8, 2011 1:47 pm

You can't expect all prospects to come in sure-fire and dominate. Felix Hernandez had a 4.52 era in his first full season and a 1.34 whip. It took him 3 years to of having a high whip to finally get it down. MLB hitters are far too good and they see quality pitchers every day, a young coming up rookie will get blasted a few times, learn his lesson in the minors, and come back up more ready. Young pitchers throw mistake pitches and usually get behind in counts, they also don't have as much scouting information or experience facing specific hitters and lineups and have to rely on their teammates intel, this gives MLB hitters the advantage of capitalizing on mistake pitches.

I treated this situation with Drabek exactly the same, I don't know why anyone would think he's a bust in his first real go-around.

Baseball is probably the only sport where you may have to wait for a player to be in the age group between 27-30 before he has a breakout season; guys like Bautista, Ibanez, and Josh Hamilton attest to that.

The Jays farm system has been impeccable the past few years in turning average guys into quality arms, and helping studs learn their potential. This was the first season where I questioned our bullpen.
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Re: Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong 

Post#11 » by satyr9 » Thu Dec 8, 2011 2:26 pm

You know who else came up and impressed as a rookie (well kind of, numbers don't look that great now, but I remember being impressed), then absolutely bombed out his second season (and by bombing I mean 10.50+ ERA, 2.20 WHIP, and 40+BB in less than 70IP)? You do know it was Doc, so people shouldn't quite be ready to give up on Drabek yet. It took Halladay 3 years at least of trying to stick in the pro's before he started his dominance.

I'm not arguing Drabek is Halladay or close, but he lost the strikezone, lost his confidence, and lost a pitch or 2 all at the same time. I think there's at least a decent chance he can get that back. No absolutes of course, but I wouldn't be one bit surprised to see Drabek look like a AL East worthy #3 or #4 guy next year.

Also, the point about what we got back for Halladay, I think people have quickly forgotten where the franchise was a couple years ago. The Halladay trade was supposed to be step one of like a 5 year rebuild (at least that's what many thought it would take). We didn't want almost ready prospects, we wanted guys that were going to need time so we could draft and add pieces so when they matured we'd be ready. But AA plugged holes with vets who he flipped for fantastic returns, drafted out of his mind so the farm filled up 10x faster than one would expect, had Bautista emerge from nowhere (that year he started off as our lead-off hitter for chrissakes), and moved a 20+ contract that made a 100m payroll equal 80 in talent so there didn't seem to be much point in trying to spend it out.

This was a lightning fast full-on organizational rebuild from where the organization was when Halladay ran out of patience. That's also my biggest problem with the recent, "spend money naoh" attitude. 2 years ago pretty much every fan was where the majority of Raps fans are now, with a full tank and rebuild that would take time. Seriously, there were worries Drabek and Wallace would be too old for the window more than too young. It's been a fantastic rebirth, granted it's accelerated by a few things you shouldn't give AA entire credit for, but to me, you don't expect the fans to come, then increase payroll, but a smart GM does expect to build something that competes and then supplements with money to maximize his window. That means you behave like TEX or SF, you get there or get to the cusp (meaning you're in the middle of a pennant race), then you start adding on. That's how the 80's and early 90's Jays got and stayed good. They built it up, then kept it up with cash. Even the Yanks and Sox went that route. They were good before they started massively increasing their payrolls (granted with that Yankees that probably has very little bearing on where they are now as a franchise).
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Re: Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong 

Post#12 » by Lateral Quicks » Thu Dec 8, 2011 5:28 pm

An excellent post/topic. There will probably be at least one rotation spot up for grabs this spring, but he'll have to compete for it like everyone else.

He absolutely imploded last season. I can't think of a young pitcher going from so good to so bad so quickly. To me - and maybe I'm being too homerish - this means that wasn't the real Kyle Drabek we saw last season. It's far too early to write him off, and if he can do this season what he didn't last the team will be that much better.
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Re: Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong 

Post#13 » by Weems » Thu Dec 8, 2011 11:08 pm

I'd be surprised if he recovered and amounted to anything. I'd be very happy to trade him if his value's still decent.
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Re: Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong 

Post#14 » by flatjacket1 » Fri Dec 9, 2011 1:35 am

To me hes still a premium pitcher. Once he gets his control (Which he will), he will be a great groundball pitcher. He pitched 48.8% GB% in 2010 in the minors, and 47.8% last year in Vegas.

I don't think we trade him or give up on him. He should stay in the minors another season. People who are worrying about age, hes only 24, and to put that in contrast Chad Beck in 26. We have a lot of talk about him competing for a bullpen/starting role in spring training.

6.3 walks per 9 innings isn't acceptable. That's the only part of his game which is lacking. The Jays seem to be interested in pitchers who have BB problems, they must feel as though they can convert them into strike throwers.
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Re: Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong 

Post#15 » by Moxie » Fri Dec 9, 2011 1:41 am

satyr9 wrote:You know who else came up and impressed as a rookie (well kind of, numbers don't look that great now, but I remember being impressed), then absolutely bombed out his second season (and by bombing I mean 10.50+ ERA, 2.20 WHIP, and 40+BB in less than 70IP)? You do know it was Doc, so people shouldn't quite be ready to give up on Drabek yet. It took Halladay 3 years at least of trying to stick in the pro's before he started his dominance.

I'm not arguing Drabek is Halladay or close, but he lost the strikezone, lost his confidence, and lost a pitch or 2 all at the same time. I think there's at least a decent chance he can get that back. No absolutes of course, but I wouldn't be one bit surprised to see Drabek look like a AL East worthy #3 or #4 guy next year.

Also, the point about what we got back for Halladay, I think people have quickly forgotten where the franchise was a couple years ago. The Halladay trade was supposed to be step one of like a 5 year rebuild (at least that's what many thought it would take). We didn't want almost ready prospects, we wanted guys that were going to need time so we could draft and add pieces so when they matured we'd be ready. But AA plugged holes with vets who he flipped for fantastic returns, drafted out of his mind so the farm filled up 10x faster than one would expect, had Bautista emerge from nowhere (that year he started off as our lead-off hitter for chrissakes), and moved a 20+ contract that made a 100m payroll equal 80 in talent so there didn't seem to be much point in trying to spend it out.

This was a lightning fast full-on organizational rebuild from where the organization was when Halladay ran out of patience. That's also my biggest problem with the recent, "spend money naoh" attitude. 2 years ago pretty much every fan was where the majority of Raps fans are now, with a full tank and rebuild that would take time. Seriously, there were worries Drabek and Wallace would be too old for the window more than too young. It's been a fantastic rebirth, granted it's accelerated by a few things you shouldn't give AA entire credit for, but to me, you don't expect the fans to come, then increase payroll, but a smart GM does expect to build something that competes and then supplements with money to maximize his window. That means you behave like TEX or SF, you get there or get to the cusp (meaning you're in the middle of a pennant race), then you start adding on. That's how the 80's and early 90's Jays got and stayed good. They built it up, then kept it up with cash. Even the Yanks and Sox went that route. They were good before they started massively increasing their payrolls (granted with that Yankees that probably has very little bearing on where they are now as a franchise).


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Re: Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong 

Post#16 » by WpgPage » Fri Dec 9, 2011 1:51 am

Weems wrote:I'd be surprised if he recovered and amounted to anything. I'd be very happy to trade him if his value's still decent.


Out of Curiosity what makes you say that? I think he can still be a solid pitcher if they don't pick anyone else up I would like to see
Romero
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Alverez can go back to AA and work on his 3rd pitch a little more. Give at the All star break you can reevaluate where everyone is and move forward from there.

Edit: Also yes what an excellent post people for get that this team really did "Go for it" in 2008 and it didnt happen so they started to tear it down in 2009. I wasnt expecting a solid team until at least 2013 so the fact that they are at this point now is just amazing really.
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Re: Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong 

Post#17 » by flatjacket1 » Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:26 am

WpgPage wrote:
Weems wrote:I'd be surprised if he recovered and amounted to anything. I'd be very happy to trade him if his value's still decent.


Out of Curiosity what makes you say that? I think he can still be a solid pitcher if they don't pick anyone else up I would like to see
Romero
Morrow
Cecil
McGowan
Drabek

Alverez can go back to AA and work on his 3rd pitch a little more. Give at the All star break you can reevaluate where everyone is and move forward from there.

Edit: Also yes what an excellent post people for get that this team really did "Go for it" in 2008 and it didnt happen so they started to tear it down in 2009. I wasnt expecting a solid team until at least 2013 so the fact that they are at this point now is just amazing really.


Send down the guy who is handling his job in the MLB? He was one of our best pitchers in the few starts he made. That's like sending Lawrie down to work on his walks (both are 21 and performed well last year).
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Re: Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong 

Post#18 » by WpgPage » Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:35 am

Without a solid 3rd offering hes going to get figured out sooner rather than later, hes also the youngest and still needs to build up his innings. You could use him out of the BP I suppose but I think he would be best served to throw 80-100 innings in AA working heavily on his 3rd pitch. He will be back up before half of the season is over because I can say for sure that one of those bottom 3 will fail or someone will get hurt.
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Re: Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong 

Post#19 » by flatjacket1 » Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:38 am

WpgPage wrote:Without a solid 3rd offering hes going to get figured out sooner rather than later, hes also the youngest and still needs to build up his innings. You could use him out of the BP I suppose but I think he would be best served to throw 80-100 innings in AA working heavily on his 3rd pitch. He will be back up before half of the season is over because I can say for sure that one of those bottom 3 will fail or someone will get hurt.


Its not something that can be "figured out", he has a plus changeup and developed a plus fastball. He's not using deception to get batters out, he is overpowering them and getting them to chase pitches they can't hit. Developing a slide would just enable him to get more K's, it wouldn't affect his ground ball rate or his effectiveness.

Drabek still needs grooming. Even after being demoted to work on his control, he still walked an insane amount of batters. Its absolutely absurd to predict Drabek would be better suited in 2012 for the rotation than Alvarez.
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Re: Kyle Drabek- still a premium pitcher. What went wrong 

Post#20 » by Weems » Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:42 am

WpgPage wrote:
Weems wrote:I'd be surprised if he recovered and amounted to anything. I'd be very happy to trade him if his value's still decent.


Out of Curiosity what makes you say that? I think he can still be a solid pitcher if they don't pick anyone else up I would like to see
Romero
Morrow
Cecil
McGowan
Drabek

Alverez can go back to AA and work on his 3rd pitch a little more. Give at the All star break you can reevaluate where everyone is and move forward from there.


He hasn't thrived at any level. In his most impressive (and only impressive) minor league season, he only struck out 7.1 batters per 9 innings in 96.1 AA innings. He struggles mightily to throw strikes, and can not throw quality strikes. He was an overrated prospect to begin with.

I actually wouldn't oppose Alvarez going back to AA, but he succeeded in the majors and he's clearly more capable pitching in the majors than Drabek if 2011 was any indication. Drabek walked 6.29 batters per 9 innings... and walked more batters than he struck out.

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