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Discussing Other Teams' Moves

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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves 

Post#441 » by Ruzious » Fri Dec 9, 2011 1:21 pm

dangermouse wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
dangermouse wrote:That deal was friggin terrible for the Hornets. I cant believe someone would actually think it was good. They were taking on the Rockets and Lakers trash and giving up their superstar. Wheres the salary relief? Wheres the picks/prospects? If i was a Hornets fan i would have been outraged.

It was even more of a Laker-rape than the original Pau trade. At least the Grizz got Marc back in that deal, who granted many didnt think much of at the time, but he was a damn good C prospect who has now proved his worth.

The only other way the Lakers could have raped them any further would be if they left them alone in a hotel room in Colorado with Kobe Bryant, a six pack of champagne and a looped track of Patty Smyth's "Sometime's Love Just Ain't Enough".

People keep posting "OMG now CP3 will NEVA BE TRADERED!!!"

How about if the Lakers offered, you know, a good package? Lets start with Bynum + multiple picks, some of their younger players, take back or find a team for Okafor?

Young player(s)/Picks/Salary relief <--- I would say, when trading away a star player, a team would want back at least 2/3 of those.

That Lakers offer had NONE of those.

End rant.

DM, if the trade went through, the Hornets got several fairly valuable assets that they could have traded and essentially converted to several draft choices that they NEEDED. As things are, they might get NOTHING... for Paul, and they'll likely be an embarrasment to the NBA and turn away a franchise of fans.

"People keep posting "OMG now CP3 will NEVA BE TRADERED!!!""

Cripes DM. That's because it might be true. Ohh carrots!

Now Dan Gilbert can be happy that another small market team gets to suffer the same fate his Cavs did. And he does it under the guise of saying he's trying to protect them. Talk about a hypocrite.


They wouldnt have got much. Look on the trade board here and see the heated discussion over Pau, most wouldnt even trade Blatche for him. Only a select few teams would want someone like Scola at 8mil for the next 4 years, and i doubt they would be willing to give up much.

And whos going to want a depressed Lamar Odom after this?

It may be good managing to stockpile talent, but not if that talent is over the hill and being paid too much, with no guarantee that anyone wants them anyway.

Id rather take the sure thing, young players, picks, expirings... Let LAL do the groundwork finding other teams to take on the crap.

And can someone explain how Chris Paul can not be traded now? Not even if a better offer is put on the table (which is oviously the reason it was nixed)?

I'm not even going to go into the rumours on the Celtics board regarding CP3/his agency apparently saying he wouldnt turn up to camp if traded to Boston. If there is any truth to that though, that throws this whole thing into a new light and I lose more respect for him than I did for Deron. He'd be below LeBron, and thats bad...
___________________________________________________________________________________________

If i was a Rockets fan i would be pretty miffed though, as their offseason moves were hinging on this trade. Gasol/Nene would have been a pretty good front line, definitely better than what they may be stuck rolling with come season opener.

Are you serious - Read the trade board as evidence? And about Gasol - who didn't even go to the Hornets in the deal? Obviously they could get draft picks and/or young players for Martin, Odom, and Scola. There should be demand for those guys around the trade deadline. You only need 1 or 2 teams to have an interest. And if for some reason they couldn't, they'd at least have some decent NBA players to field a team. Now, they have a completely unmotivated Paul on rent and have probably lost their fan base. And you really think that's the best solution?
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves 

Post#442 » by Ruzious » Fri Dec 9, 2011 1:29 pm

no D in Hibachi wrote:
dangermouse wrote:

I'm not even going to go into the rumours on the Celtics board regarding CP3/his agency apparently saying he wouldnt turn up to camp if traded to Boston. If there israny truth to that though, that throws this whole thing into a new light and I lose more respect for him than I did for Deron. He'd be below LeBron, and thats bad...


This. There are many layers to this onion, but the CAA is right at the core. The lockout accomplished nothing and if i were a hardline owner i'd be beyond ticked with some of the rumblings.

Do you guys understand anything? The lockout was about money, and that's what the owners won - and won big. And if you read Gilbert's e-mail, blocking the trade was all about... guess what... money.

Cleveland lost Lebron for nothing. In this trade, the Hornets would have gotten something. One of the talking heads on ESPN even said they got more value than Paul. I wouldn't go that far, but they did get some value for him. Without a trade, they'll get nothing. It's not that complicated.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves 

Post#443 » by Ruzious » Fri Dec 9, 2011 1:30 pm

Rico's last post sums it up very well.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves 

Post#444 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:03 pm

I think most of the people who say a trade would have been horrible for New Orleans cannot even fathom why Memphis is in fine shape, having traded Pau years back. Same people don't realize Denver is better without Carmelo.

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_ ... proportion

With the Houston Rockets acting as middlemen, Demps landed for his league-owned franchise Lamar Odom, Luis Scola, Kevin Martin, Goran Dragic, and a 2012 first-round pick the Rockets had obtained from the Knicks, of all teams, for Tracy McGrady, of all people. (Former Knicks president Donnie Walsh long ago said of dealing that pick, "I'll second-guess myself forever on that.") Pau Gasol ended up in Houston.


Kevin Martin is POSSIBLY AS GOOD OR BETTER THAN RAY ALLEN WAS PRIOR TO GOING TO BOSTON.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ike02.html

#1 in Free Throws Made
# 8 in Free Throw Percentage
#3 in Three Point Field Goals Made
# 9 in Scoring (23.4 points per game)
TS% of .601 on a high volume of shots
PER of 21.9

Lamar Odom is perhaps best sixth man since Kevin McHale. He is for Kobe like Pippen was for MJ. He rebounds very well, finishes around the basket very well, defends well, and is a great passing big man.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... mla01.html

#7 in Effective Field Goal Percentage
#10 in Defense Rebounds (despite playing 32 minutes a game)
(2009-2010) #4 in Defensive Win Shares
PER of 19.4
Per-36 minute averages: 16.1 points, 9.7 rebounds, 3.4 assists

Luis Scola is an international star who scores and rebounds well. He is another unselfish passer.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... alu01.html

PER of 18.4 (NBA average is 15)
Per-36 averages: 20.2 points, 9.0 rebounds, 2.8 assists

Goran Dragic has looked terrific in limited opportunities to start. In 5 games as a starter (3 with Houston, 2 with Phoenix): Dragic averaged 13.4 points, 7.8 rebounds, 7.8 assists as a starter in 2011.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lits/2011/

Dragic's 2009-2010 Playoff PER 17.7

The Hornets keep an excellent defender and rebounder, Emeka Okafor. Add to that a first round pick, and this is a TREMENDOUS DEAL for New Orleans IMO.


(That was the basketball part. Skip the rest if I'm too long-winded for you. Read the rest if you care about my opinions on this.)




The same darned owners who overpay scrubs and people who don't understand why Memphis has a good core group don't see why this a tremendous deal.

Why is it tremendous? Kevin Martin is an elite scorer. Odom is a great defender at 6'10" playing SF. He is a top rebounder. His greatest skill set could be his facilitating. Scola is a scorer who can pass. Dragic is a great rebounder at PG and a very good passer, who is a streaky good scorer. Putting great passers and good scorers with a great scorer, while keeping defensive anchor, Okafor, makes New Orleans a competitive team. They get back a 1st round pick, too. The age of Odom and Scola is the bad part. Otherwise, this team makes the playoffs and is probaly better than the Paul/West team.

My overall conclusion is the deal was eliminated by Stern because certain owners and Stern are out of control. I think Stern vetoed the deal from a money standpoint and at the behest of owners like Dan Gilbert, and perhaps, Peter Holt; who Chris Paul had a run-in with.

They can't conclude the deal makes New Orleans non-competitive, as I and others did before looking at the specifics of the deal. Owners lose a lot of money signing bad deals that for years and years many of us on this sight could have saved them from signing. This OTOH is a deal where anybody who says it's bad for New Orleans IMO lacks insight.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves 

Post#445 » by TGW » Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:18 pm

I agree 100% with Dangermouse. Terrible deal by the Hornets and their GM. Who cares what the players think--they are professionals, and they need to understand they could get traded at any minute. No player is safe. And the trash they were getting....wow. Gasol is a good player, but he's how old? Odom is how old? They got no salary relief and no picks. If I was a GM for the other teams, I would have been pissed too. This would have been another move, supported by Stern, that shows that the NBA is a 5 team league, and the rest are just there to be a speedbump.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves 

Post#446 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:24 pm

TGW, read my post before yours and tell me why this is terrible for the Hornets.

I challenge you (or dangermouse or anybody else) to come up with one basketball reason aside from the age of Odom and Scola.

I know Paul is great, but the Hornets get back plenty team value. A team (the Mavericks) beat a few superstars last season. Paul is going to leave and NO OTHER SUPERSTAR is going to the Big Easy in place of him. With that in mind, tell me why the Hornets get a terrible deal without resorting to subjective opinions where you don't present a strong argument like I did above. Just ONE reason why this is terrible.

And if you say getting back picks would have been better for New Orleans, I will really come back with: The Hornets would be contracted IMO within 2 years if they traded Paul for expiring deals and picks. Paul said he wouldn't leave the city without talent in place of him. The vetoed deal got talent and a future 1st.

No this deal is NOT TERRIBLE AT ALL for the Hornets.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves 

Post#447 » by TGW » Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:47 pm

They traded the best player in the deal (by far) and got no salary relief, young building blocks, nor picks. No combination of Luis Scola, Kevin Martin, or Gasol can make up for that, CCJ.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves 

Post#448 » by dandridge 10 » Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:51 pm

I honestly don't see all the fuss. I don't care if the trade was lopsided or not. The league owns the Hornets. They can decide whether to approve the trade or not. Its no different than if Grunfeld worked out a similar trade and Leonsis nixed it. Leonsis calls the shots as the owner. Here, the league calls the shots because it is the owner. If the league doesn't like the deal for the Hornets, so be it.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves 

Post#449 » by no D in Hibachi » Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:59 pm

Ruzious wrote:
no D in Hibachi wrote:
dangermouse wrote:

I'm not even going to go into the rumours on the Celtics board regarding CP3/his agency apparently saying he wouldnt turn up to camp if traded to Boston. If there israny truth to that though, that throws this whole thing into a new light and I lose more respect for him than I did for Deron. He'd be below LeBron, and thats bad...


This. There are many layers to this onion, but the CAA is right at the core. The lockout accomplished nothing and if i were a hardline owner i'd be beyond ticked with some of the rumblings.

Do you guys understand anything? The lockout was about money, and that's what the owners won - and won big. And if you read Gilbert's e-mail, blocking the trade was all about... guess what... money.

Cleveland lost Lebron for nothing. In this trade, the Hornets would have gotten something. One of the talking heads on ESPN even said they got more value than Paul. I wouldn't go that far, but they did get some value for him. Without a trade, they'll get nothing. It's not that complicated.


The NBA lockout was about power, money is only an appendage of that:

The NBA lockout was as exclusively about money as it was exclusively about astrophysics...The lockout was nothing more than the headband rule writ large. It was an attempt to demonstrate who was in charge here. Stern saw the "perception" building that his players were less "dedicated to the game" than they were to their various "outside activities," and that the hired help was "out of control."


http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7290143/it-just-money
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves 

Post#450 » by Ruzious » Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:00 pm

TGW wrote:I agree 100% with Dangermouse. Terrible deal by the Hornets and their GM. Who cares what the players think--they are professionals, and they need to understand they could get traded at any minute. No player is safe. And the trash they were getting....wow. Gasol is a good player, but he's how old? Odom is how old? They got no salary relief and no picks. If I was a GM for the other teams, I would have been pissed too. This would have been another move, supported by Stern, that shows that the NBA is a 5 team league, and the rest are just there to be a speedbump.

Again with Gasol going to the Hornets... :banghead:
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves 

Post#451 » by fishercob » Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:01 pm

My quick takes, many regurgitation from commentaries on twitter:

1) Phil Jackson was right all along. This is what happens when the league owns franchises. Shame on them for not handling Shinn better and for their handling of this. First and foremost, the league looks pathetically awful.

2) I have no problem with the trade from a basketball standpoint and think it should be allowed. New Orleans got a really nice haul for someone who would leave anyway -- probably better than Denver got for Melo (and the Knicks had *actual* leverage because they had the cap room to sign Melo outright). Houston, if they had signed Nene -- which was their clear next move -- would have been really good. Statheads love Lowry, Lee and Budinger. And they'd still have Patterson, Marcus Morris, Motiejunas, Jordan Hill as assets.

3) Massive risk for the Lakers. Three issues: (a) Stat guys are already wondering how well Paul and Kobe co-exist. Spot up shooting isnt a Kobe strength. But let's give the benefit of the doubt and say they work it out. (b) Front court depth, as has been much discussed. It's Bynum and his long injury history and little else. (c) I haven't seen this discussed anywhere, but this is a MASSIVE risk for the Lakers. Paul is coming without an extension, because it makes much more financial sense for him to opt out after the season and re-sign. What happens if Kobe (he of 15 years and nearly 50,000 career minutes) pops an achilles or an ACL this year? What if the Lakers crash and burn, finish 7th in the West and go one and done? Why on earth would Paul re-sign?

4) Dan Gilbert is a f*cking ****. He and only he could turn Lebron James in to a sympathetic figure.

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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves 

Post#452 » by Ruzious » Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:03 pm

no D in Hibachi wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
no D in Hibachi wrote:This. There are many layers to this onion, but the CAA is right at the core. The lockout accomplished nothing and if i were a hardline owner i'd be beyond ticked with some of the rumblings.

Do you guys understand anything? The lockout was about money, and that's what the owners won - and won big. And if you read Gilbert's e-mail, blocking the trade was all about... guess what... money.

Cleveland lost Lebron for nothing. In this trade, the Hornets would have gotten something. One of the talking heads on ESPN even said they got more value than Paul. I wouldn't go that far, but they did get some value for him. Without a trade, they'll get nothing. It's not that complicated.


The NBA lockout was about power, money is only an appendage of that:

The NBA lockout was as exclusively about money as it was exclusively about astrophysics...The lockout was nothing more than the headband rule writ large. It was an attempt to demonstrate who was in charge here. Stern saw the "perception" building that his players were less "dedicated to the game" than they were to their various "outside activities," and that the hired help was "out of control."


http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7290143/it-just-money

What a bunch of BS. There were definitely attitude problems and various agendas involved, but the bottom line in the entire process was money. This really isn't rocket science.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves 

Post#453 » by TGW » Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:04 pm

^^^Fine....Scola, Gasol...same difference. It doesn't change the fact that neither player (or players) are anywhere close to being worth Paul. It was a junk package for the best point guard in the league.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves 

Post#454 » by Ruzious » Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:18 pm

fishercob wrote:4) Dan Gilbert is a f*cking ****. He and only he could turn Lebron James in to a sympathetic figure.

I'll hang up and listen to your answer. Thanks for taking my call.

Thank you caller. And just to reinforce the obvious on Gilbert, he got the numbers wrong on his e-mail to Stern.

johnhollinger John Hollinger
One other thing about Gilbert letter: He doesn't appear to understand the difference between revenue sharing and the luxury tax.
about an hour ago


kpeltonKevin Pelton

by johnhollinger



Dear Dan Gilbert: You can't both create a valuable trade exception and pay less in luxury tax. Those are mutually opposing things.

9 hours ago
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves 

Post#455 » by TGW » Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:32 pm

Now Brandon Roy is going to announce that he's retiring.

Wow.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves 

Post#456 » by montestewart » Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:38 pm

arguments both well reasoned and hysterical, sometimes in the same post. I love the drama. Great thread.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves 

Post#457 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:43 pm

TGW wrote:They traded the best player in the deal (by far) and got no salary relief, young building blocks, nor picks. No combination of Luis Scola, Kevin Martin, or Gasol can make up for that, CCJ.

See the Carmelo deal from Denver's perspective, post trade.

Your opinion has one paragraph and is quite subjective, TGW.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves 

Post#458 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:45 pm

fishercob wrote:My quick takes, many regurgitation from commentaries on twitter:

1) Phil Jackson was right all along. This is what happens when the league owns franchises. Shame on them for not handling Shinn better and for their handling of this. First and foremost, the league looks pathetically awful.

2) I have no problem with the trade from a basketball standpoint and think it should be allowed. New Orleans got a really nice haul for someone who would leave anyway -- probably better than Denver got for Melo (and the Knicks had *actual* leverage because they had the cap room to sign Melo outright). Houston, if they had signed Nene -- which was their clear next move -- would have been really good. Statheads love Lowry, Lee and Budinger. And they'd still have Patterson, Marcus Morris, Motiejunas, Jordan Hill as assets.

3) Massive risk for the Lakers. Three issues: (a) Stat guys are already wondering how well Paul and Kobe co-exist. Spot up shooting isnt a Kobe strength. But let's give the benefit of the doubt and say they work it out. (b) Front court depth, as has been much discussed. It's Bynum and his long injury history and little else. (c) I haven't seen this discussed anywhere, but this is a MASSIVE risk for the Lakers. Paul is coming without an extension, because it makes much more financial sense for him to opt out after the season and re-sign. What happens if Kobe (he of 15 years and nearly 50,000 career minutes) pops an achilles or an ACL this year? What if the Lakers crash and burn, finish 7th in the West and go one and done? Why on earth would Paul re-sign?

4) Dan Gilbert is a f*cking ****. He and only he could turn Lebron James in to a sympathetic figure.

I'll hang up and listen to your answer. Thanks for taking my call.


See what fishercob said in bold, TGW.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves 

Post#459 » by TGW » Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:50 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
TGW wrote:They traded the best player in the deal (by far) and got no salary relief, young building blocks, nor picks. No combination of Luis Scola, Kevin Martin, or Gasol can make up for that, CCJ.

See the Carmelo deal.

Your opinion has one paragraph and is quite subjective, TGW.


What about the Carmelo trade? They received Gallinari, Wilson Chandler, Mozgov, a first rounder, and cash. It wasn't a great return, but at least its what a rebuilding SHOULD get in return--picks and young players.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves 

Post#460 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:52 pm

dandridge 10 wrote:I honestly don't see all the fuss. I don't care if the trade was lopsided or not. The league owns the Hornets. They can decide whether to approve the trade or not. Its no different than if Grunfeld worked out a similar trade and Leonsis nixed it. Leonsis calls the shots as the owner. Here, the league calls the shots because it is the owner. If the league doesn't like the deal for the Hornets, so be it.


dandridge, there is no debating what you just said. The league had the power/right to veto what the league didn't like.

The debate is over Paul being allowed the opportunity to work where he wants to after several years and two contracts with one team. Should Stern and owners decide players cannot leave? Why is it that an Albert Pujols CAN leave or any other baseball player, but NBA players cannot? Why do football players have more freedom to leave their teams than NBA players. Why is it that NBA players trying to form super teams is bad for the game? Has a super team won the title other than the ones the league allowed to be formed for their own marketing reasons. The league didn't complain about the Lakers getting Gasol. This Paul trade is no more lopsided IMO because Paul is leaving regardless. The league didn't complain when Boston's GM Danny Ainge added Garnett and Ray Allen. No, it is okay for Stern to have a Lakers/Celtics rivalry. Owners have the power to trade and control players to stop the players from having ANY say in where they play. Just don't let players like Paul decide on their own where they should play, per the owners and Stern.

Any of those things I mentioned are debatable topics, particularly in light of all that went down during the lockout, dandridge.
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