Political Roundtable Quasar of Mayhem part III

[dobrojim]

one might ask what it will take for the GOP primary voters
to wake up, the earth is round!

Politics are important, or at least potentially so.
In the Bacevich vid he goes on at some length how we really
only have one party, the incumbent party. I think he is very
much on target when he talks about this. And it is one of
the strengths of the #OWS people, something that people
in either party can largely agree on.

one huge issue is the large number of low information voters,
people who believe facts that aren't facts.

[hands11]

one might ask what it will take for the GOP primary voters
to wake up, the earth is round!

Politics are important, or at least potentially so.
In the Bacevich vid he goes on at some length how we really
only have one party, the incumbent party. I think he is very
much on target when he talks about this. And it is one of
the strengths of the #OWS people, something that people
in either party can largely agree on.

one huge issue is the large number of low information voters,
people who believe facts that aren't facts.

Well that just leads me back to the system/organization that is the Republican party. They have a more focused agenda and money from the 1% and international corporations funds the propaganda that promotes that message. Mostly that is a profit and social/economic control.

As the party of the 1% and international corporations, they know how to organize and message very effectually . They don't even hide it anymore.

Then you have their pollsters, messaging and talking points. They are masters of marketing since they are corporate people. For that they don't even hide what they are doing. They have Frank Luntz. He tells the party what to say and how to say it to twist the truth to win people over. It's all political spin aimed at twisting people minds.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/repu ... 07949.html

Don’t say that the government ‘taxes the rich.’ Instead, tell them that the government ‘takes from the rich.’

Republicans should forget about winning the battle over the ‘middle class.’ Call them ‘hardworking taxpayers.’

Don't say 'government spending.' Call it 'waste.'

Out: 'Entrepreneur.' In: 'Job creator.'

Don't ever ask anyone to 'sacrifice.' ( this is so said that this is were we are )

Always blame Washington.

Then you have the free flow of money that pays for the messaging. I give you Citizens united and super packs which would never have passed with a more Dem in the supreme court. For organized money you have dirty tricks people like Turd Blossum Carl Rove's. And they swift boat people. You go right at someones strength and turn it upside down.

Then you have broadcasting the message. They started by creating their own news via AM radio with a entire line up of political mouth pieces who stoked up religious right and redneck America while they line their pockets. AM news used to be straight news and interviews with experts. Then starting with Rush, it became propaganda and disinformation entertainment. That grow to Gordan, Savage, etc. etc. This was the beginning of the great dumping down of America. People started to have their own version on news and their own facts. Then they started their own propaganda tabloid news channel (FOX) where by they hire political actors to peddle their agenda. It is a constant barrage of anti-facts that feeds into the master goal. Here you get your Sarah Palins, Trump, etc.

First they attacked the established news as biased then they replaced that news with their own. Call up down and down up and people will be so confused they won't know the difference. And by all means keep rolling out the hotties so guys will watch. The misinformed will start to think they are the informed. It used to be misinformed people know they didnt know and would listen to people who did. And people like FOX were smart enough to know they would get attacked because of how moderates viewed AM radio like Rush, so they marketed themselves preemptively as fair and balanced. It was brilliant. All the while attack PBS, NPR and smart people.

It's a very smart and well managed approach to controlling what millions of people thinks because that is what they need to do in order to get these people to elect them against their better interests. They needed more then the far right, they needed people to the left of that. Fear played a major part in this so they invent wars on the boogie man. Terrorists, Drug users, the poor is getting over on you ( the welfare queen). But they never point out how the mega rich are stealing them blind via the government coffers and raping environmental.

But after falling so far behind, the Dems, the moderates and the progressives started to get more organized and copied what was being done to them. They moved more to the middle and got tougher on defense. They started left wing progressive Air America but they didnt work. Now you have MSNBC as counter balance for the more serious issues and Comedy Central as the entertainment to counter the AM comedy radio of the Republicans. And progressives that want something like radio listen via the internet and podcasts. Dem progressives are more internet savvy.

The republicans had the Koch brother Dick Arms funded and organized Tea Party. Now the Dems have the grass roots world movement that is the 99% occupy movement.

Dems will never be as unified in their messaging because it is not a top down message but they do have more people on their side and the truth. In time, the truth and facts will overcome lies, greed and pure profit motives.

That is where we are now. Power and money is making on final push but the masses are fighting back. People are learning and they are waking up.

One can only hope that this is the beginning of the end of this 30 year top 1% movement that masks itself as a political party for the people.

[hands11]

dobrojim, thanks for posting that video. I wish we would get more people to do that.

After listening to that video which is very long, I finally got the to root of salience at the 49 min mark.

They were describing how masses of people are living by ideology instead of facts. I totally agree with that as a core problem today.

It was an interesting listen. I can't honestly say I agree with a ton of the conclusions though. For example, I think they stopped short when describing the error of our propensity to spread democracy as per-emptive protection.

Spreading democracy and freedom as a preemptive measure was not the problem, doing it by gun and bomb so easily was. I also disagree with how much they make it sound like the parties are the same. Yes, they both protect the system that makes it easier for them to be reelected. That is to be expected. Who doesn't want to keep their job. But what they fight for is very different outside of that. On that point, he seemed to really miss the mark. Also, people may not like Congress and the way it is run, that doesn't mean they don't like their own representative. There are 100s of people in the house and senate to dislike and the way do or dont do things collectively vs your own representatives. So congress having a low rating is easy to explain.

Also the point he made regarding JFK election as a turning point in politics, he seemed to fail to emphasize that TV politics was inevitable once there were TVs. For me it would have been better if they focused on what needed to happen to make that transition functional. There were very few solutions in this conversation. He mostly described the transition that happened. Actually, a lot of what he said makes me believe he is more of a historian then a policy person. He was very short on solutions. Even more so, he was short on politically viable solutions. But I did enjoy the history review.

Also in regards to the discussion on pre-emptively spreading democracy as a means of total protection, I think again the missed the underling issue. The core issue for us having a need to do this along with importance of fighting the cold war the way we did was not so much about the invention of the hydrogen/nuclear bomb, it was because someone actually dropped this device on people. Sadly that was us who did that. This highlights his unintended consequences view point which I agree with.

Reminds me of somethings I say.

It is the theft who is most afraid of being stolen from.
The liar who is most paranoid that they are being lied to.
The cheat that is most afraid and quick to accuse other of cheating on them.

You fear most that which you know is possible by your own actions and experiences.

We are most paranoid that someone would drop a nuke or dirty bomb on us simply because we know it is possible because we did it. We opened that can of warms.

Again, this fella defiantly strikes me as a smart person, but he seems to fall short on some on his explanations and solutions.

Just like at the 21 minute mark of this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&featu ... F4Y_BebfNI

He start to nail the politics regarding Obama and Afghanistan and then come up a solution that completely disregards politics. Obama had no choice but to follow through on his campaign plead to get out of Iraq and to send more troops in Afghanistan.

35 minutes was some good stuff. I would mostly agree with what he was saying there. But that only highlight how the two parties are actually different. The Dems wanted to fight terrorism as a global intel and policing operation. It was the Republicans who publically ridiculed them as fools and weak on defense for thinking they could do that. Winding down the wars in Iraq instead of quick full scale removal of troops does not make the parties the same. The Dems had to do it this way. The Republican have dictated that. But I have zero doubt that given the same situation of 9/11 happening with a Dem in office, there is no way we would have invaded Iraq, and the Afghanistan mission would have been over a long time ago.

[hands11]

Perry running an ad against gays and stating their is a war on Christmas.

Newt saying he would have Bolton as secretary of state.

Doubling down on dumb.

Ideology over facts.

They need a new play book. This isn't going to work.

It's embarrassing.

[hands11]

More up is down and down is up from the propaganda R machine, Carl Rove.

Carl's group is running an ad against Elizabeth Warren saying she in Wall Streets back pocket.

Like I said, they always go right at someones strength and try to tell a story that the opposite is true.

Propaganda. It's the dumping down of America.

I don't think it is going to work this time around though. Chalk up one more Dem senator. Can't wait for her to get there.

[Severn Hoos]

Propaganda. It's the dumping down of America.

Mission Accomplished.

[montestewart]

Propaganda. It's the dumping down of America.

Mission Accomplished.

I couldn't think of the right line.

[hands11]

Propaganda. It's the dumping down of America.

Mission Accomplished.

George Bush's most memorial moment. The president flies onto a hanger in full pilot gear.

Nice made for Hollywood politics. I can't believe he actually agreed to do that.

[montestewart]

Propaganda. It's the dumping down of America.

Mission Accomplished.

Nice Zinger but it is toothless and childish.

Make your point or counterpoint. Facts would help.

I thought he did all that.

[fishercob]

Just saw this Dylan Ratigan rant from August. Great stuff and gets at why I'm a registered independent. The system -- this two party system -- is broken.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4yDCUJJm_U&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/youtube]

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

That is the reason I consider myself apolitical, fishercob. Too much partisan politics.

I watched voting on C-Span one day and saw all the Dems went one way and all the Reps another and thought they are all bought and sold, influenced by their own special interests, and not at all representing constituencies.

The parties cloud the real issues.

People have so many resources today that a truly representative government of the people, by the people, and for the people shouldn't have a bunch of corrupt politicians and a broken system dictating all decisions through partisanship. People don't necessarily need representatives in their state capitols and Washington, IMO. They can Skype or vote online the same way they do fantasy sports deals, chat, and other social media. I'm no Twitter guy, but that media is powerful and government could utilize it if they actually wanted people to decide things more than politicians want power to influence and the monetary perks that come with it. If they keep people in the dark and out of the decision,making process, they can control them.

One thing about independents is they seek to go their own way. Everyone should be independent IMO. Then, let the democratic process, free of much of the handshake deals and politics as usual of partisan politics, take care of itself. The Constitution provides the framework for the greatest nation, ever.

The political parties with their posturing/sensationalism via the media is what screws things up, royally, IMO.

[hands11]

That was an awesome piece.

I think we are closer to that day coming them some my believe.

The people are taking to the street signaling they are ready to hear our president take it to the congress which he has been doing. Obama is out there talking it to the people. He is going around congress finally. He is actually doing what he wants, he just hasn't reached that level of freak out.

He has been pushing more and more over the last year. He tried working with congress for almost a year. If we can't even do the simple things, how are we going to do the bigger things. There is politics to this. Timing is important. Turning the ship of public opinion around wasn't going to happen over night. Now that ship is turning. People are learning. The old tricks are not working like they used to.

This is what I have been talking about in here for a while. The play book the R have been using for 25 years is getting really old. People are waking up. This will be an election for a new congress more then it will be an election for a new president.

People don't like the world the baby boomers have left behind and they want a change.

[montestewart]

People don't like the world the baby boomers have left behind and they want a change.

What makes you think I left it behind? It's still mine.

[hands11]

People don't like the world the baby boomers have left behind and they want a change.

What makes you think I left it behind? It's still mine.

Cute but pretty clueless comment. I would expect no better.

Left behind was in regards to actions that have already taken place. The mess that was already made. It had nothing to do with relinquishing control to cause future damage. That said, that is about to end as well and it isn't going to be choice.

[montestewart]

People don't like the world the baby boomers have left behind and they want a change.

What makes you think I left it behind? It's still mine.

Cute but pretty clueless comment. I would expect no better.

Left behind was in regards to actions that have already taken place. The mess that was already made. It had nothing to do with relinquishing control to cause future damage. That said, that is about to end as well and it isn't going to be choice.

Don't get me started, Mr. "I predicted all this countless times down to the finest point in my million page indecipherable manifesto, complete with grammar, usage, and formatting lessons."

If facetiousness is over your head, so be it. You missed a clear point about your continually insulting carelessness in making your own points. This time, you insulted baby boomers. All baby boomers. A shameful, callous, gutter smear.

[montestewart]

OK hands11, I admit, that was a little facetious as well, but...you know...

[hands11]

As a group. They have a lot to account for. Of course that does not include every individual. But that was obvious. You seem to be taking this personally.

As for you being obtuse and lashing out. It is what it is.

Look. Personally, I am not into the personal attack stuff and internet chest thumping. I guess I lash back sometimes but it is not my preference.

I would rather debate issues and have a laugh now and again.

After all, we are either Wiz fans or Americans. We are more family then enemy. Even if we have to fight over some differing views sometimes.

[DCZards]

Hey Hands, you might want to ease up on the Baby Boomers. They're not perfect (no group is) but the Boomers are due props for being at the forefront of significant and important movements, including the civil rights, the women's rights and the anti-war movements, all of which led to more equity and more freedom of speech/protest in this country. It also helped to diversify many of our nation's major institutions. Good liberal/progressive values that you appear to embrace....at least most of the time.

[montestewart]

Thank you, DCZards.

[hands11]

Hey Hands, you might want to ease up on the Baby Boomers. They're not perfect (no group is) but the Boomers are due props for being at the forefront of significant and important movements, including the civil rights, the women's rights and the anti-war movements, all of which led to more equity and more freedom of speech/protest in this country. It also helped to diversify many of our nation's major institutions. Good liberal/progressive values that you appear to embrace....at least most of the time.

I give mad props to them as 20 year old people. At least the ones that took to the streets, supported, spread the word and voted for those changes. That was the world I grow up in since am year 1 of the Gen X group. Most of the good stuff I got about life was built around what happened then. That was the best music ever created. It was a soulful time. The people had a voice and they raged against the machine. It was a great American doing tough meaningful things for equality and liberty. That is what is giving me hope about what I am seeing now. Occupy are the children of the Gen Xer who thought them about the 60s. It feels like this country is finding itself again. This is a country of and for the people, not for the top 1%, banks, bubbles and international business. The people are trying to take their government back.

But the Baby Boomers sold out for "things" as they got older. They wanted wanted wanted and they didn't pay for it. The Boomers as they grow up became the ME GENERATION.

Of course that is a generalization about Boomers but if there wasn't a majority of them acting this way, they wouldn't have been labeled as the ME GENERATION. They would have been labeled something else. Maybe the Greatest Generation. It doesn't mean everyone. But then again, everyone wasn't involved in the equal rights liberty moments you referenced so they should not get credit unless they were actively involved. Many of those people fought for he other side and still do today.

Thanks for chiming in. I usually enjoy what you add to the conversation.