RealGM Top 100 List #79

[lorak]

pen, you didn't count my vote and nomination: Connie and Eaton

[Doctor MJ]

Okay, letting the rest of y'all narrow down my choice:

Nominate: Larry Nance

The comparison with Marion is interesting. Marion's a bit better rebounder, Nance a better shot blocker, both great defenders, and when Marion was in Phoenix, both were efficient scorers that helped fill in the gaps. Marion though pushed his way out of Phoenix toward journeyman status and inefficiency, while Nance continued in his role.

Hagan btw, is tempting but I'm not quite ready to go there. A 1950s player who never made All-NBA 1st team? Hmm.

I'll also note that the fact that I'm even talking about Marion on my list like he's close to the guy I'm picking is something. I've been reluctant to champion Elton Brand as my nominee for fear that I'll be stuck nominating him for the rest of the project, but I may start doing it regardless.

[bastillon]

Sheed wasn't a great offensive performer either, but at least he could contribute offensively in the playoffs and was never getting dominated by anybody like Marion was in 06 against Lamar Odom, Elton Brand and Dirk Nowitzki in three consecutive series. I know Marion all-out because I watched every Suns game back in the day. his real value is 01-03. a very good player, but not all-NBA type of guy.

Marion in those 3 series averaged 20.4/11.7 on .561ts% . . . if that's a guy who can't produce offensively in the playoffs I'm not sure what you are looking for.

And the crippled up Suns won two of those series too before losing to a clearly more talented Dallas team.

long story short, that's the reason why I consider Nash top3 PG of all time.
wanna see Marion producing offensively without Steve Nash ?

00 - rookie Marion goes for 9 ppg on 41% in 31 mpg
01 - soph Marion goes for 15 ppg on 37% in 35 mpg
03 - peak Marion goes for 18 ppg on 37% in 47 mpg
10 - 31y old Marion goes for 9 ppg on 41% in 25 mpg
11 - 32y old Marion goes for 12 ppg on 47% in 32 mpg

this is not a guy who you can count on to produce a lot offensively in the playoffs unless you create easy opportunities for him. you should focus less on raw stats and think about how those differences occured - why Marion was able to perform well with Nash but couldn't do anything useful without him. obviously that's because he's not particularly good at creating shots for himself, but is a great finisher to pass to.

but Marion without Nash isn't as good as Rasheed offensively. he's an inefficient SF who's mostly helping you on defense and on the glass. but Sheed is better defensively as well, because he's able to guard the painted area effectively. after all he was a major part of possibly the GOAT defense.

[Doctor MJ]

Also, someone not really brought up: Thoughts on Dan Issel? Never been a huge fan, but I'd kind of expect him to be in the conversation. I actually don't really see what Dolph Schayes has over him.

[Dr Positivity]

What do you guys think about Paul Westphal? He only has a 5 year prime but it's a good one w/ a handful of 20-21ppg seasons and two 24-25ppg ones - and 5-7apg, which is more impressive than it sounds because of lower apg numbers in those years - he made the top 10 in apg from 77-79 even while playing 31-32mpg. Westphal is also in the Manu zone for eye popping per 36 stats because of his lower minutes - in 78 his per 36 is 29pts, 6 assists, 2 rebs, 2 stls 51%+! (and on that note, I didn't realize how massive Walter Davis' scoring per 36 was for such a long time, though it looks like he was closer to the FGA jacking zone to get it after the first few years)

He's a winning guy and the Suns do pretty well, making the Finals and racking up a handful of other 50 W seasons in the mid late 70s. Makes 3x 1st team All-NBA and 6th in MVP in 78. I think being a top 10-15 guy in his prime for 5ish years and being a really solid fit lineup wise with a lot of teams if he's not the superstar, which gives him a resume not far off from a Price or Deron Williams

I feel like there's a lot of guys yet to be nominated who I like (Sikma, Gus Williams, Deron, Hagan, Debusschere, etc.) but Westphal is another one to think about

[therealbig3]

Okay, letting the rest of y'all narrow down my choice:

Nominate: Larry Nance

The comparison with Marion is interesting. Marion's a bit better rebounder, Nance a better shot blocker, both great defenders, and when Marion was in Phoenix, both were efficient scorers that helped fill in the gaps. Marion though pushed his way out of Phoenix toward journeyman status and inefficiency, while Nance continued in his role.

Hagan btw, is tempting but I'm not quite ready to go there. A 1950s player who never made All-NBA 1st team? Hmm.

I'll also note that the fact that I'm even talking about Marion on my list like he's close to the guy I'm picking is something. I've been reluctant to champion Elton Brand as my nominee for fear that I'll be stuck nominating him for the rest of the project, but I may start doing it regardless.

I'm nominating Brand next, right after Nance, and I actually wonder if Brand should go ahead of Nance.

And ronnymac2, why Deron over Brand? Longevity favors Brand pretty easily, and it's not like Brand wasn't a legitimate PF...very underrated, although he was a top 5 PF behind Duncan, KG, and Dirk, and maybe Webber (although I don't agree) from 00-07. His 06 season was statistically better than Duncan's and KG's, although nobody would rank him ahead of them that year, because that would be considered heretical. And he followed up that up with a dominant playoffs (although he faced a couple of depleted front courts).

I like Deron a lot, but I don't see him here yet, he's got Paul's longevity without Paul's peak, so I don't really see him ahead of Tim Hardaway, for example.

[Dr Positivity]

I don't know about longevity favoring Brand. In Chicago he's inefficient and they have 17 and 15 W seasons - that's Brook Lopez esque impact to me. Brand would be one of many players who's impact is far below their prime's until their 3rd year, for some reason that's always the leap

02-07 is 6 years. I have 4 years for Deron where he's a legitimate all-star and 07 where he's very good and goes off in the playoffs. I still have the better player in Deron in that case. But if it was up to me Brand would probably already be nominated over Dantley, Billups, Lucas, Sharman

[therealbig3]

I think I'd take Rasheed over Debusschere though, and I think Pressey should also get some attention too, bastillon made a great thread about him before (numbers show that he was more important than Moncrief on defense).

And bastillon, you're not high on Ben Wallace at this point, but do you feel he goes ahead of Jerry Lucas? I'm not seeing many positive for Jerry Lucas, your previous posts about him were pretty convincing that he wasn't that good of a player.

[Doctor MJ]

Okay, letting the rest of y'all narrow down my choice:

Nominate: Larry Nance

The comparison with Marion is interesting. Marion's a bit better rebounder, Nance a better shot blocker, both great defenders, and when Marion was in Phoenix, both were efficient scorers that helped fill in the gaps. Marion though pushed his way out of Phoenix toward journeyman status and inefficiency, while Nance continued in his role.

Hagan btw, is tempting but I'm not quite ready to go there. A 1950s player who never made All-NBA 1st team? Hmm.

I'll also note that the fact that I'm even talking about Marion on my list like he's close to the guy I'm picking is something. I've been reluctant to champion Elton Brand as my nominee for fear that I'll be stuck nominating him for the rest of the project, but I may start doing it regardless.

I'm nominating Brand next, right after Nance, and I actually wonder if Brand should go ahead of Nance.

And ronnymac2, why Deron over Brand? Longevity favors Brand pretty easily, and it's not like Brand wasn't a legitimate PF...very underrated, although he was a top 5 PF behind Duncan, KG, and Dirk, and maybe Webber (although I don't agree) from 00-07. His 06 season was statistically better than Duncan's and KG's, although nobody would rank him ahead of them that year, because that would be considered heretical. And he followed up that up with a dominant playoffs (although he faced a couple of depleted front courts).

I like Deron a lot, but I don't see him here yet, he's got Paul's longevity without Paul's peak, so I don't really see him ahead of Tim Hardaway, for example.

Okay, you and I are clearly on a similar page.

[therealbig3]

Brand was still above league average TS% in his first two seasons, and he was a legitimate 20/10 post player every year from 00-07 (or close enough in some of those years). He also played very good defense. It's not hard to build around a guy like that, but the Clippers proved that they're a very special front office.

And Chicago was just pathetic from 99-04, not just when Brand was there.

In addition to those 6 really good seasons from Brand, I like his first two years and see them as All-Star caliber seasons, similar to Deron in 07. Deron is the better player, but Brand I think has clearly better longevity on his side. Durability too: Brand has 2 seasons out of 8 in which he played less than 70 games. Deron has 2 through 5 seasons.

[penbeast0]

I have Nance and Marion roughly even; since there seems to be movement toward Nance, switching my nomination to The Thin Man.

Westphal is interesting, I always saw him as a slightly superior Drazen Petrovic type -- all offense but very good at it.

[bastillon]

I think I'd take Rasheed over Debusschere though, and I think Pressey should also get some attention too, bastillon made a great thread about him before (numbers show that he was more important than Moncrief on defense).

And bastillon, you're not high on Ben Wallace at this point, but do you feel he goes ahead of Jerry Lucas? I'm not seeing many positive for Jerry Lucas, your previous posts about him were pretty convincing that he wasn't that good of a player.

I've posted a quote recently from an observer of Jerry Lucas in '71 saying that Oscar must have dragged him to all-star teams on his back if he played like this in Cincinatti. they began saying Lucas was the only retired player still active - that's how bad he was on defense. I also remember quote from Wayne Embry complaining about how he made him boxout every player because he wanted to just get the rebound. hell, I remember quote from Lucas himself saying he would sometimes grab rebounds from his OWN TEAMMATES because that's all he cared about. I'll post those quotes in a week when I get back to my hometown.

Ben Wallace's impact is too diminished by his offensive qualities. Jerry Lucas is not an impact player at all. he's an extremely poor defensive big who only cared about his rebounding stats. I said it once and I'll say it again. if we all agree that bigs are responsible for team's performance on defense, then if you're playing 45 mpg as a big man, and your team is failing to rise from the bottom of the league defensveily, you should be blamed accordingly.

Lucas 1970 (22g) -1.1 to -4.7
Lucas 1965 (13g) -2 to 2

according to Elgee's findings Lucas might have been a negative overall... that's what happens when you're too concerned about getting your stats.

I can't see Lucas as being nearly as good as Terry Cummings. in his prime basically 23/8 big with very good defense and 1st option on 5 SRS Bucks in 85-89. Terry Cummings looks dominant next to Parish in their playoff battles in 86 and 87. Pressey is a good one, great impact player, not a great boxscore guy but huge intangibles, sort of like Walton though obviously a lot worse. still, 5 years of high impact play deserves some consideration.

[penbeast0]

Price or Hawkins . . . I just don't see Mark Price as that much of a difference maker so despite huge reservations, I will switch my vote to Connie Hawkins so that we can move on.

VOTE

Kemp – JordansBulls

Price – Dr Mufasa, therealbig3, drza

Hawkins – Doctor MJ, ronnymac2, DavidStern, penbeast0

Lucas -- Laimbeer


NOMINATE

Daugherty – JordansBulls

Deron – Dr Mufasa, ronnymac2

Nance – therealbig3, DoctorMJ, penbeast0

Daniels – Laimbeer

Hagan – drza

Eaton -- DavidStern