Wiz acquire Ronny Turiaf, NY '13 2nd, DAL '12 2nd

[Ruzious]

Btw, for those who think the Wiz significantly upgraded the front court depth vs last season, Turiaf's PER last season wasn't just lower than Yi's; it was lower than Hilton Armstrong's. He may be the world's best cheerleader, but I think it's a stretch to even call him servicable on the court.

Turiaf's is a defensive role player. His impact on the court is better than his stats. Yi's stats were awful and his in-game impact was even worse than his numbers. I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say he's a better player than Yi. (Damning with faint praise, to be sure.)

I agree that Turiaf might not be much better than Armstrong. I actually thought Armstrong was a halfway decent end-of-the-bench role player for us. He's the kind of guy you're pretty happy to get for the vet minimum.

Nate, he is physically overmatched as a defensive player. He can't cover any quality center. He's small and he's lacking athletically. He's also a lousy rebounder.

And Armstrong's play was generally cringe-worthy.

[Nivek]

Turiaf shows up as a net positive in adjusted plus-minus last season with the Knicks, and the preceding season with Golden State, which lends some statistical support to his defensive impact. Of course, the year before that, he showed up as slightly negative defensively for GSW in APM. With the Lakers in 07-08, the APM numbers suggest the Lakers were worse defensively when Turiaf was on the floor.

That said, I don't think anyone should look at Turiaf as anything more than a big body and a good person to have in the locker room for this season.

[Ruzious]

Turiaf shows up as a net positive in adjusted plus-minus last season with the Knicks, and the preceding season with Golden State, which lends some statistical support to his defensive impact. Of course, the year before that, he showed up as slightly negative defensively for GSW in APM. With the Lakers in 07-08, the APM numbers suggest the Lakers were worse defensively when Turiaf was on the floor.

That said, I don't think anyone should look at Turiaf as anything more than a big body and a good person to have in the locker room for this season.

A bunch of people said he's an improvement over the bench players we had last season. I disagree - because he's not good at anything on the court.

[doclinkin]

stuff

stuff

And gave rise to the Religion and Philosophy thread. Might as well give it a try.

[fishercob]

I hope that Ted hasn't over-learned the hockey lesson. The NBA is different. In hockey, the best player is on the ice about a third of the time (unless he's the goalie, but you get my point). In the NBA, the best player is on the court 80-85% of the time.

In hockey, the best players get what? 4-5 shots on goal per game? In the NBA, the best players will use 25-30% of their teams' possessions.

In hockey, depth is much more important because you need 3-4 good lines. In the NBA, a 9-10 man rotation is sufficient for the regular season -- 7-8 man for the playoffs. Hence the 23-man roster in hockey vs. 15 in basketball (12 active). In hockey, though -- everyone on the active roster plays except for maybe the backup goalie.

I agree that I'd rather have a Stockton-Malone type thing than a 3-4 year run of being a contender followed by more sucking. But I don't think Ted's hockey experience teaches how to build an NBA team. At least not how it's been articulated by Ted.

I'm not worried about it, and in terms of how to build a genuine winner/contender, it's even that much more important to stink, because generally, unless you're a glitzy city with great marketing opportunities, and perhaps a nice NBA history and rep, you aren't getting any of the big 5-10 NBA superstars as free agents ever (unless they're broken down shells of what they were), so sucking big time, and landing a great draft pick is really the only legit opportunity to get a truly special talent, the only other way to win is the spurs model, which for all of the team first talk, was still entirely dependent upon two massive pieces of luck in a 10 year stretch for the franchise in drafts featuring HOF big men.

And that's exactly the model that Leonsis espoused. Suck big time, get elite difference making talent via the draft, and then build an attractive, hungry, young cohesive team around himthat can win, and attract players that can help it win. The team is rapidly on its way to becoming that. They are young, they are athletic, they are fast, and they are beginning to even add a little bit of defense too.

Nice of the poster above you to get the reference , Tom Hagen was my hero , one interesting side note in a bizarre caps season. They managed to thieve a tremendous asset last summer when they were supposed to be dealing from a position of weakness, and dealt their cranky goalie Varlamov for a colorado draft pick in a fantastic draft. Well, Colorado has begun to crater, the pick is sitting at top 5 after more than a quarter of the season, in a draft featuring top heavy blue chip superstars. Awesome. Even better, 18 months ago the caps snagged a russian forward that slipped to 23 or 24 because of concerns with the transfer agreement with Russia, that player was considered the best junior player in the world at the World Junior championships last winer, and looks like a superstar in waiting, will probably debut with the caps in the fall of '12, or '13 at the latest. Awesome. His name is Evegeny Kuznetsov. Keep an eye out for him.

Good points on Varly and Kusnetsov (who Ted hyped today on his blog). It provides lessons on hoarding picks and on thinking long term. If you go into every (or most) drafts with more than the allotted picks, you can afford to swing for the fences more, stash guys overseas, etc. As an aside, it's why I was hoping the Wiz took Nikola Mirotic or Davis Bertans -- but I'm just going off what I've read; I've never seen either play). Sooner or later, you're going to hit on a few guys who drastically out-produce their draft position. Maybe they dropped for character concerns (Josh Smith), medical (Dajuan Blair), etc.

As to thinking long term, it's the main reason why I was pushing to deal Nick Young to Chicago before the deadline last year for the future Charlotte pick, and why I would have (pre-Rip) S&T'd Nick to Chicago to get that pick back. Here are the pick details:

Charlotte's own 2012 1st round draft pick to Chicago (top-14 protected in the 2012 Draft, top-12 protected in 2013, top-10 protected in 2014, top-8 protected in 2015 and unprotected in the 2016 Draft.)

The Bobcats suck and I believe they will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Six years ago the Wolves traded Sam Cassell and a future first for Marko Jaric and Lionel Chalmers . That pick is now close to helping them acquire Chris effing Paul. So while waiting until as late as the 2016 draft might not be appealing to some people, it's important to keep in mind how valuable high picks can be, as well as to remember that Wiz ownership is in this for the long haul.

[Dat2U]

Turiaf shows up as a net positive in adjusted plus-minus last season with the Knicks, and the preceding season with Golden State, which lends some statistical support to his defensive impact. Of course, the year before that, he showed up as slightly negative defensively for GSW in APM. With the Lakers in 07-08, the APM numbers suggest the Lakers were worse defensively when Turiaf was on the floor.

That said, I don't think anyone should look at Turiaf as anything more than a big body and a good person to have in the locker room for this season.

A bunch of people said he's an improvement over the bench players we had last season. I disagree - because he's not good at anything on the court.

He is an improvement. But it's definitely faint praise. Personally I think Turiaf is fine as a limited rotation player getting 10-15 minutes a night. Bottom line, he won't kill you unless your asking him to start against other legit centers or playing him long minutes.

Yi & Armstrong weren't rotation quality players and it honestly didn't matter who you played them against, in any scenario they were embarrasingly overmatched.

I'd compare Turiaf to Etan while he was in DC in terms of performance. Etan was more offensive minded but Turiaf is a better team defender.

[Dat2U]

Prior to new ownership, the Nets played in Newark, NJ.

Nate, the bottom line is there isn't a move Ernie can make -- short of turning a gun on himself -- that will be anything but slammed by closg00 and his band of haters. Dat and Kevin are right that the Turiaf trade is a low impact move, but it's extremely low risk with little downside.

Who's slamming this move? My angst is with the unadultered praise being heaped on EG for a move that basically amounts to a teardrop in a rain bucket.

[Dat2U]

Dat, I rarely disagree with you but on this one I see the deal as potentially very beneficial.

--When Ernie Grunfeld traded Gil to go to the Magic, even before I knew the financials of the deal favoring the Wizards; I thought it was a good karma (coming from a Christian, I will explain I believe you often get what you give) to allow Gil to play for Otis Smith on a team with a chance to win. Made me not remember Ernie's role in gun gate and able to move on. Turns out the Wizards won out financially in a big way financially. In the locker room Rashard has been a class act. He even might have gotten Lebron James a bit distracted. The deal helped more than Gil be free in the end.

--Ernie Grunfeld traded Jamison to Cleveland in a good faith move that did nothing but create a wave of good things. Jamison for Thornton and a pick was mostly letting Jamison go with a chance to win.

--Sending Caron Butler, DeShawn Stevenson, and Brendan Haywood gave the Mavericks depth that allowed them to weather injuries and guys with playoff toughness and angst for Lebron who helped the Mavs win the title.

--Now, Grunfeld frees cap space for the Knicks and gives them just who they need at C when NY otherwise could not have acquired Chandler. It accommodates the player, and also the Dallas Mavericks, who got a trade exception. The way I see it, the second round picks could either one turn out to be the next Gilbert Arenas, or Manu Ginobili, or Carlos Boozer. Add to that cash.

As far as it being a 1 out of 10 impact deal this season, I would say if Turiaf can simply communicate with Seraphin and N'Diaye things that make them more knowledgeable or game-ready, that would be enough. If he's good for morale, that would be a good contribution.

I think the biggest overall impact of the deal, Dat, is that good will can be expected to come back in future deals with New York or Dallas. Dallas has Dominique Jones, while New York has Toney Douglas and Landry Fields who I like. The Wizards have put themselves in place to receive a favor back, or just get ancillary good like they did in the Kirk Hinrich to ATL trade.

I think Grunfeld is definitely doing a good job now, post-Ted becoming full owner.

It's funny that the Jamison trade basically sealed LeBron's fate in Cleveland. If anything, EG stuck the knife in the Cavs back and twisted the handle when he made that deal.

The Butler, Haywood & Stevenson trade was laughably bad. Keep in mind we only dumped Haywood (and our best trade asset) to rid ourselves of one year of DeBrick for a little over $4 million. Only to go out and take Yi off the Nets hands for free. Really?

I don't how much karma plays in basketball. Sure, you want to treat players fairly and do the right thing by your guys. Nothing wrong with that, but making moves to benefit other teams moreso than your own is not building karma. It's just plain stupid.

I remember doc mentioning a few years back about how EG helping Memphis might benefit us down the road, lol. Personally, I don't think the NBA is an environment where if you scratch someone elses back, their going to automatically stratch yours back. I think it's much more cutthroat than we make it out to be. With the Lakers, Knicks, Heat, etc its about leveraging your situation to take advantage of weaker franchises. In the NBA, I think the nice guys or more likely to finish last than anything else.

[doclinkin]

I remember doc mentioning a few years back about how EG helping Memphis might benefit us down the road,

To be specific this had to do with the relationship between Jerry West and GMEG. West had lent a number of comments on Grunfeld's behalf after he got canned by NYC -- or after he was getting panned in Milwaukee following the owner's directions, I forget. Something to the effect that he'll always pick up a phone call from GMEG since he knows that Ernie prefers to make trades where both parties leave the deal thinking they got what they wanted and won't suggest stupid trades nor waste your time pestering you with impossibilities. I'm paraphrasing.

Now, in the cut-throat game that is NBA front-office dealings, maybe you want a snake-oil salesman who is willing to bottle piss and call it holy water. I'm not defending Ernie here on that score. I will say what Ernie is is a guy who has become very competent at trying to follow the direction given him by his employer. In NY he was more brash and pushy and creative in remaking a roster to serve his own vision -- and got shxtcanned and drummed out of town, after a consistent record of high accomplishment that lasted with the re-made roster he left behind. Now Ernie takes few risks, follows the blueprint.

In this case that means ultimately Ted calls the shots, sets the strategy. Ted has been very transparent about what he expects this team to doa nd when and for how long. No mystery. He trusts the draft, a low overhead, growing your own players within your own system, keeping those players when their contract becomes due, trading always with an eye to the future as well as now (a prospect and a pick) and only using the free agency to add role-players not overpaying for primary talent.

Following that model Ernie has been a capable employee. A team manager more than a visionary.

[E86]

Wrong board.

[CKamm1]

They don't have the rest of the clip where after that he limps off and misses the next two games.

[iDunk]

I'm gonna miss him a lot, no lie.

[JonathanJoseph]

Wherever my earlier post saying this was like found money need look no further than Kwame Brown getting $7M this year. $7M is the going rate for a servicable backup post player.

Turiaf at $4M and no long term cap issues is like free money, as I said.

[WizarDynasty]

Outstanding to boost our bigman basketball iq off the bench. Turiaf is just what we needed.