RealGM Top 100 #81

[penbeast0]

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days -- Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Brad Daugherty

1x NBA 3rd Team
5x All-Star


Larry Nance

1x NBA All-Def 1st team
2x NBA All-Def 2nd team
3x All-Star


Bill Sharman

Hall of Fame 1976
4x All-NBA 1st team
3x All-NBA 2nd team
4x NBA Champion
8x All-Star


Ben Wallace

3x All-NBA 2nd team
2x All-NBA 3rd team
NBA Champion 2004
4x Defensive Player of the Year
5x All-Defense 1st team
1x All-Defense 2nd team
4x All-Star


Jerry Lucas

3x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
1 NBA Championship 1973
Rookie of the Year 1964
7x All-Star



Shawn Kemp

3x All-NBA 2nd team
6x All-Star


Adrian Dantley

Hall of Fame 2008
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
Rookie of the Year 1977
6x All-Star


Chauncey Billups

1x ALL-NBA 2nd
2x ALL-NBA 3rd
2x All-Defense 2nd
Finals MVP 1987
NBA CHampion
5x All-STar

[penbeast0]

VOTE:

Brad Daugherty, Ben Wallace, Larry Nance, Shawn Kemp and Jerry Lucas were bigs with high efficiency (except Wallace). Daugherty was a below average defender and average rebounder who shot well and passed extremely well. On the other hand, Wallace was great defensively but one of the worst offensive players ever. Nance was a great shotblocker and dunker though he was rail thin -- he's been called the most underrated player in NBA history so often he's in danger of being overrated. Kemp was athletic and active defensively although foul prone and immature; Lucas was a great rebounder with outstanding shooting range who the voters of his day put into the HOF over Willis Reed among others; not strong defensively and numbers obsessed.

Adrian Dantley was one of the greatest scorers ever. High volume at efficiency only approached by the Charles Barkley/Reggie Miller's of the world. That's it though, as his defense and team ethos were frequently questioned.

At guard, Bill Sharman was the prototype spot up shooter, Chauncey Billups one of the most efficient guards of the last decade with his 3 point shooting, ability to draw fouls, and extremely low turnover rates.


Best numbers is Adrian Dantley who carries his own baggage . . . Daugherty, Wallace, Kemp, and Lucas all had major drawbacks . . . . Nance, Sharman, and Billups were super solid but not dominators. I rate Kemp over Daugherty, Wallace, and Nance; Billups over Sharman and Billups over Kemp for his intelligence and the finals win over that superstar laden Lakers squad.

Actually Billups v. Mark Price is very interesting. Statistically they are almost identical -- they score around the same amount of points, have virtually identical assist/turnover ratios, similar playoff numbers too though Billups has a slight edge, he also has a longevity edge. But, the key difference is that Billups was a good defender; Price was not.

VOTE: Chauncey Billups

[penbeast0]

Point Guards -- not seeing these guys yet, the other positions are stronger
Tim Hardaway
Lenny Wilkens
Dennis Johnson
Tony Parker?
Gus Williams?
Norm Van Lier?

Shooting Guards -- some solid choices here
Joe Dumars
Earl Monroe
Chris Mullin
Mitch Richmond
Paul Westphal?
Walter Davis?

Shooting Forward -- Probably the deepest spot left:
Shawn Marion
Cliff Hagan
Carmelo Anthony
Bob Dandridge
Jamaal Wilkes?
Willie Wise?

Power Forward -- Not sure how much to value Paul Silas/BuckWilliams/Bill Bridges types
Terry Cummings
Elton Brand
Amare Stoudamire
Paul Silas/Dave DeBusschere/Maurice Lucas/Buck Williams -- the bangers

Centers: see no real argument for Brad Daugherty over Daniels, Sikma, Johnston, or even Bellamy
Mel Daniels
Jack Sikma
Neil Johnston
Walt Bellamy
Yao Ming

Looking at the candidates -- Marion gives the best combination of longevity and superb 2-way play. For peak, Mel Daniels won TWO MVP's and 3 championships in the ABA -- yes it was an inferior league and his career wasn't that long but it was better ball than the NBA in the 50s and he was basically Alonzo Mourning as a player with better rebounding but less shotblocking -- similar offense and attitude. He'd be a stud even today though probably not a 20ppg scorer.

Love to see more analysis of THardaway v. Wilkens, GWilliams v. DJohnson, Dumars v. Monroe, Mullins v. Richmond, Hagan v. Dandridge, Marion v. Carmelo, Silas v. DeBusschere, TCummings v. EBrand, MDaniels v. N.Johnston.


Some Peak year comps:

Hagan 1959 37.5min 10.9reb 3.4ast 23.7pts .516ts% (9th in MVP) -- league 108.2pts on .457ts%
Dandridge 1979 33.7min 5.7reb 4.7ast 20.4pts .553ts% (5th in MVP) -- league 110.3pts on .530ts%
Hagan looks like the better offensive player, Dandridge the better defender though it is closer

Nance 1987 37.2min 8.7reb 3.4ast 22.5pts .591ts% (no MVP votes) -- league 109.9pts on .538ts%
Marion 2006 40.3min 11.8reb 1.8ast 21.8pts .607ts% (.001 MVP votes) -- league 97.0pts on .537ts%
I'm tempted to use 01 or 03 for Marion since they are nearly as good and without Nash but 06 was the year he carried the team with Amare injured. Marion is clearly better this year.

Cummings 1985 34.5min 9.1reb 2.9ast 23.6pts .536ts% (5th in MVP) -- league 110.8pts on .543ts%
E. Brand 2006 39.4min 10.0reb 2.6ast 24.7pts on .580ts% (7th in MVP) -- league 97.0pts on .537ts%
Brand looks better here but Cummings peak was longer.

I go back and forth among several candidates -- Dumars, Marion, and Daniels being the top of my list. For now, I will tentatively go for Mel Daniels -- a two time MVP (admittedly ABA) with a physical power game. If the Hawk is in and Brad Daugherty is nominated, it's time for Mel Daniels although ready to switch back to Marion or over to Dumars or even Terry Cummings if there is traction.

NOMINATE Mel Daniels

[lorak]

vote: Big Ben
nominate: DeBusschere

[bastillon]

vote: still Shawn Kemp. other players have significant flaws. Big Ben is a liability on offense, Lucas doesn't play defense, Dantley doesn't well either, Sharman was at his best in the 50s, Daugherty wasn't a comparable defender, Nance lacked offensive game.

nominate: still Rasheed (might change this for DeBusschere). great longetivity, valuable on both ends of the court, was THIS-CLOSE to win a title as team's 1st option while dominating game 7 vs Lakers. weak boxscore stats though.

[penbeast0]

Nance scored as much and as efficiently as Shawn Kemp . . . with much better passing out of the post. And he played better help defense (though Kemp was good), didn't have the foul problems, and was a classy human being who was a pleasure to coach from everything I've heard. Kemp's advantage to my mind, was his rebounding and ability to hold position against post up bigs -- and superior postseason results I think though I haven't checked.

[drza]

Vote: Ben Wallace
Nominate: Elton Brand

[Dr Positivity]

Vote: Ben Wallace

Nominate: Deron Williams

[therealbig3]

Vote: Kemp
Nominate: Brand

Not seeing why Ben Wallace should go ahead of Brand, let alone get voted in before Brand is even nominated.

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Shawn Kemp
Nominate: Mitch Richmond

[bastillon]

what's the case for Ben Wallace ? lasted from 2002 to 2007, all time defender but also one of the worst players to ever play the game on offense. I really don't see why he would go ahead of Sheed. Sheed has twice as long longetivity and he's not a big liability on offense.

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Adrian Dantley

Nominate: Deron Williams

Deron Williams needs to be nominated now. I've been a DeBusschere advocate and I like Brand, but Williams is a level above both of them. He's an anchor. Perhaps he can only co-anchor a title team, but it's better than what Brand can do.

I don't mind the Brand pick because of longevity reasons I guess. DeBusschere over Deron is too "Horry over Ewing" to me.

[therealbig3]

Vote: Adrian Dantley

Nominate: Deron Williams

Deron Williams needs to be nominated now. I've been a DeBusschere advocate and I like Brand, but Williams is a level above both of them. He's an anchor. Perhaps he can only co-anchor a title team, but it's better than what Brand can do.

I don't mind the Brand pick because of longevity reasons I guess. DeBusschere over Deron is too "Horry over Ewing" to me.

Well what do you have to say about the APM numbers which say that Williams isn't as big impact as his box score stats suggest?

[bastillon]

I don't think Ronny's a big in/out guy considering he's voting for Dantley. I disagree with him in general because he has his own methodology which gives him different results but I can't say he's inconsistent and as long as Ronny is fair to everyone and applies the same criteria to every player, I'll be impressed by his objectivity.

I don't know guys. at this point I think longetivity is far more important than peak. there's rarely a case where player would be a superstar. usually guys were in all-NBA 3rd/all-star category for the most part and they didn't leave that area in their career. that's why I'm very reluctant to vote for Brand, Hawk or Ben Wallace. when their prime lasted for 5 years it's hard to think they were more valuable long-term pieces than a guy who was playing at all-star level for 10 years.

but if I was to vote for a short prime guy it would definitely be Paul Pressey. 14/7/5/56% TS/2/1 with DPOY defense (finished 3rd in '85, all-defensive 1st in 85 and 86) and amazing team impact. I just can't envision Brand going to mediocre team and make them legit contenders under any circumstances. fit or not, Pressey's impact is really hard to deny. it's getting particularly frustrating because Moncrief was voted way too early and the gap between Pressey and Moncrief couldn't have been that big as it will be on this list.

but that's two of the reasons why I'm not voting for Deron despite the fact that I like his skillset. his prime has been really short so far and there's question whether his stats translated to team success as much as they suggest.

[Laimbeer]

Vote- Wallace
Nominate - Daniels

[Dr Positivity]

I agree about players with 10 year careers having the extra value (which is why I was nominating Sikma until it became obvious it was a lost cause), but in this case I'm with ronnymac that Deron can legitimately be the lone all-star on an elite team which is a BIG deal. If I'm building around Deron and I have eg. what he might have next year in Nene, Brook Lopez, Anthony Morrow shooting 3s and then 10-15 mil of bench depth like the Bulls spent last summer - I'm feeling pretty good about my chances to put up a 50-55 W+ caliber season. I don't know if there's 50 players in NBA history whom at their peak I feel I can put together a 55 W team without other all-stars/with attainable supporting pieces. Some may disagree with my estimation of that plausible Nets team, but again, look at the Jazz success as right underneath that with a similar Deron + frontcourt setup w/ 54 and 53 W seasons with the Boozer and Okur combo. And I think Nene/Lopez would clearly be better than Boozer and Okur. Hell, in 09 the Jazz played at a 56 W pace in the games Boozer missed (he was inefficient with his usual bad d in the games he played). To me Deron guarantees me a smoothly running perimeter. Give him a couple shooters and I'm feeling very good about the combination of his driving/power and playmaking and their shooting giving me most of what I want out of a perimeter offense, and then add that to a high end frontcourt and depth and you might have one of the best teams in the league.

Frankly I could see Deron going down as this generation's Paul Pierce - never freakishly dominant but his rep is understated for that reason, when you look at the rarity of a 20 pt, 10 assist PG who's competent defensively and is one of the great PG fits with other star players w/ his shooting - his eventual case for the top 50 in 5 years may jump out at us, in the same way by the time we got to the late 30s it became obvious there were no more wings better than Pierce

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Adrian Dantley

Nominate: Deron Williams

Deron Williams needs to be nominated now. I've been a DeBusschere advocate and I like Brand, but Williams is a level above both of them. He's an anchor. Perhaps he can only co-anchor a title team, but it's better than what Brand can do.

I don't mind the Brand pick because of longevity reasons I guess. DeBusschere over Deron is too "Horry over Ewing" to me.

Well what do you have to say about the APM numbers which say that Williams isn't as big impact as his box score stats suggest?

His 2010 RAPM looks just fine for a superstar to me, and the two previous years don't look too damning either. Either way, as long as APM numbers don't say something extremely contrarian to what everything else says, I won't be worried. As Bast noted, it doesn't seem like I strictly follow those stats for anybody, does it?

I don't mean to imply they aren't useful, because they definitely are. They have value. I just think the value of APM-like numbers is equally tied to analysis of how teams are constructed as they are in evaluating individual players and their abilities/roles/skill sets/value to team.

APM doesn't make me step back from my Deron nomination.

[Doctor MJ]

Well, definitely:

Nominate: Elton Brand

Once again. Now, by no means would I say that Brand had the best peak of any of the current players who are not yet nominate. However, this is a guy with an unquestionable Top 10 peak, who to my mind was a clear all-star level player for 6 straight seasons, and did so with a fantastic attitude along the lines of Duncan. Like Pau Gasol, he missed out on all-star status because you have to be a superstar to be an all-star lock on a crappy franchise (which is why he eventually took the opportunity to go).

To those who say "6 years isn't great longevity", well let's not overreact. Brand's got a 29 K minute career with an average PER of 21.5.

For perspective, there are 43 players in the career 25 K & 20 PER in history. The only one besides Brand not already voted in is Dantley, and all but 6 of the others by my count are in our Top 50 (exceptions KJ, Schayes, Lanier, McAdoo, Carter, Webber). And incidentally, if we rank those players by PER, Brand is 30th.

So this is not a guy with a tiny career. He's a guy with a very solid career with fine longevity, who shines in offensive stats while being a good defender and a good locker room guy.

[Doctor MJ]

As far as the vote, I'm disturbed at the fact that it appears Ben Wallace may leapfrong teammate Chauncey Billups without any conversation. If there was ever a late-project time where debate was begging to be had, it would be between the two most prominent Pistons of the past decade.

I have to say I've sided with Billups for quite a while. I do consider Ben to be the most important factor i the championship, but it's truly an ensemble cast, and after that Billups got better while Ben regressed.

I also think it just has to be important that the Pistons had their single best SRS year in '07-08, which was after Ben was already gone. Of course they traded Billups the next year, immediately fell apart, and have stunk ever since. I won't claim that Billups was the only factor there, but it does seem quite clear that while the '00s Pistons may have been built around Ben, they were capable of sustaining that attitude pretty well without him, but that guys like Hamilton, Prince, etc really did need a solid offensive alpha to stir the drink.

At this point, I'm inclined to vote for Billups in this spot.

[lorak]

I'm changing my nomination: Deron Williams