Can Jeff Green Be Traded Without His Consent?

[Curmudgeon]

The Celtics extended a $5.9M qualifying offer to Jeff Green under the old CBA. My understanding was that when a player accepted a QO, he could not be traded without his consent. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Have the rules changed under the new CBA?

However, instead of accepting the QO, Green and the Celtics negotiated a one-year deal, reportedly for $9M. Does this mean that Green can now be traded without his consent?

[DBoys]

(Unless a rules change was slipped into the new CBA without being mentioned so far)
He cannot be traded to anyone for 3 months, and then only with his permission.

[wiLQ]

However, instead of accepting the QO, Green and the Celtics negotiated a one-year deal, reportedly for $9M. Does this mean that Green can now be traded without his consent?

https://webfiles.uci.edu/lcoon/cbafaq/salarycap.htm#Q83

"In addition, if the player is playing under a one-year contract and will have Larry Bird or Early Bird rights at the end of the contract, he can't be traded without his consent. If consent is granted and the player is traded, then he loses his Larry Bird or Early Bird rights, and enters free agency as a Non-Bird free agent."

IMHO it had nothing to do with a potential trade, Celtics wanted to preserve cap space for 2012 so they basically bribed Green not to seek long-term contract.

[Curmudgeon]

Thanks very much for your responses.

[mysticbb]

https://webfiles.uci.edu/lcoon/cbafaq/salarycap.htm#Q83

"In addition, if the player is playing under a one-year contract and will have Larry Bird or Early Bird rights at the end of the contract, he can't be traded without his consent. If consent is granted and the player is traded, then he loses his Larry Bird or Early Bird rights, and enters free agency as a Non-Bird free agent."

IMHO it had nothing to do with a potential trade, Celtics wanted to preserve cap space for 2012 so they basically bribed Green not to seek long-term contract.

The passage you cited has nothing to do with the Green situation. Green will not lose his status as qualifying veteran, if he is traded anyway. He reached that status after the 2009/10 season and will maintain that unless he signs a contract with a new team as free agent.
The rule you cited applies only to players who signed as FA with a new team. In such a case the players have to gain the status as Early-Qualifiying or Qualifying veteran again with their new team. For that they have to stay with that team for at least two respectively three seasons without getting traded or waived.

[DBoys]

"In addition, if the player is playing under a one-year contract and will have Larry Bird or Early Bird rights at the end of the contract, he can't be traded without his consent. If consent is granted and the player is traded, then he loses his Larry Bird or Early Bird rights, and enters free agency as a Non-Bird free agent."

This quote is correct. I'm not sure what mystic is thinking, but he's off base this time. The restriction is the rule that allowed Devean George to refuse to go to NJ in the Kidd trade to Dallas, which almost derailed that mega-deal.

The rule can be made complex to understand, but it's really a simple one. A free agent who signs a one-year deal with his old team can't be traded without permission. Period. If he gives it, his clock starts over on Bird rights at the point of the trade.

[mysticbb]

"In addition, if the player is playing under a one-year contract and will have Larry Bird or Early Bird rights at the end of the contract, he can't be traded without his consent. If consent is granted and the player is traded, then he loses his Larry Bird or Early Bird rights, and enters free agency as a Non-Bird free agent."

This quote is correct. I'm not sure what mystic is thinking

Where exactly did I say that this quote is not correct? That quote is correct, but it does NOT apply to Jeff Green at all. It doesn't matter, if Green has a 1yr contract only, he will NOT lose his status as Qualifying veteran, if he is traded. Green reached the status of a Qualifying Veteran before he was traded to the Celtics. His Bird rights were traded with him, that's why the Celtics could sign him to whatever amount of money they liked. Green still is a Qualifying veteran.
That rule only applies to players who have signed as FA with a new team and would lose the ability to get Early Qualifying or Qualifying veteran status due to a trade.

but he's off base this time.

I doubt that. ;)

The restriction is the rule that allowed Devean George to refuse to go to NJ in the Kidd trade to Dallas, which almost derailed that mega-deal.

Correct, Devean George was able to block a trade due to this rule, but Devean George signed a contract as a FA with the Mavericks in 2006 by using the Bi-Annual exception. He was in his 2nd year with Dallas when the trade should have happened, that means he would have not be able to gain the status as Early Qualifying veteran like he got by staying with the Mavericks. That is a complete different scenario than a Jeff Green trade would be.

[DBoys]

It's a simple rule. Jeff Green was a Celtic free agent. He signed a one year deal. As a result, he cannot be traded without his permission, and his Bird clock will restart if he agrees.

Contrary to what you say, this rule NEVER applies to a player who signs with a new team. It's a rule about when a player signs a one year deal with the old team, and that's what Green has done.

[DBoys]

I don't have time to dig out the CBA passage at the moment, but maybe Larry Coon will suffice to persuade you.

https://webfiles.uci.edu/lcoon/cbafaq/salarycap.htm#Q88

[mysticbb]

It's a simple rule. Jeff Green was a Celtic free agent. He signed a one year deal. As a result, he cannot be traded without his permission, and his Bird clock will restart if he agrees.

Article VII Section 8 (b)

A player with a one-year Contract (excluding any Option Year) who would be a Qualifying Veteran Free Agent or an Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agent upon completing the playing services called for under his Contract cannot be traded without the player’s consent.
Should the player consent and be traded, then, for purposes of determining whether the player is
a Qualifying Veteran Free Agent, Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agent or Non-Qualifying
Veteran Free Agent at the conclusion of the Contract or any subsequent Contract between the player and the assignee Team, the player shall be considered as having changed Teams by means of signing a Contract with the assignee Team as a Free Agent (and not by means of trade).

That rules applies only to players who would lose their status as Early Qualifiying or Qualifiying veterans, if they are traded. The "Bird rights" are traded with the player in case like Green, whether he is in his final year or not. Devean George was in his last year of a two year contract and by trading him he would have lost the chance to gain Early Qualifiying veteran status. Here applies this rule and George couldn't be traded without his consent.

Contrary to what you say, this rule NEVER applies to a player who signs with a new team. It's a rule about when a player signs a one year deal with the old team, and that's what Green has done.

Great, how can it be that it applied to Devean George? He signed as a FA with the Mavericks in 2006, a two year deal for the Bi-Annual, George played for the Lakers before that. How can it apply to Devean George, if that rule "NEVER applies to a player who signs with a new team"? ;)

I doubt that Larry Coon is correct. Article VII Section 8 states the trade rules, and there is nothing in that section saying anything about that at all.

[DBoys]

Article VII Section 8 (b)

A player with a one-year Contract (excluding any Option Year) who would be a Qualifying Veteran Free Agent or an Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agent upon completing the playing services called for under his Contract cannot be traded without the player’s consent.

Should the player consent and be traded, then, for purposes of determining whether the player is a Qualifying Veteran Free Agent, Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agent or Non-Qualifying Veteran Free Agent at the conclusion of the Contract or any subsequent Contract between the player and the assignee Team, the player shall be considered as having changed Teams by means of signing a Contract with the assignee Team as a Free Agent (and not by means of trade).

Mystic, maybe you're talking about something completely different than we were discussing here ... but the rule you cited above, completely agrees with what Coon said, as well as myself.

That rule covers Green's current situation. As it says, he can't be traded without his permission, and if he does so, his Bird clock restarts. Or, in the rule's terminology, as a result of the trade "the player shall be considered as having changed Teams by means of signing a Contract with the assignee Team as a Free Agent (and not by means of trade)."

[mysticbb]

That rule covers Green's current situation.

I guess that is the point of the discussion. I say the rule does not apply to Green's situation, because he kept his status as Qualifying veteran when he signed with the Celtics. That status will not change, if he is traded.

The rule states that it applies to players "gaining" the status of Early Qualifying or Qualifying veteran upon completion of that final year. That's why George was able to block the proposed trade, because George by getting traded would have lost the chance of getting Early Qualifying veteran status for his upcoming free agency.

The clock for Green wouldn't start new, at least I can't find something in the CBA saying that. He signed a contract as a Qualifying veteran with his prior team (the Celtics). Signing this contract didn't restart his clock at all. He is still a Qualifying veteran when the contract runs out. If that is wrong, can you please point out the Article and Section in the CBA, because, as I stated, I can't find that under trade rules what Coon is saying. It also doesn't seem to be in agreement with the explanation in Article I what a Qualifying veteran is.

[DBoys]

You're apparently confused, with much of what you are saying as accurate, plus some of it as either not understanding the reading of the rule or not realizing that it is the exact rule that governs Green's situation.

When Green got to the summer, he had full Bird rights. Those came with him in trade. Then his contract expired.

When he signed again with Boston for one year, they used that Bird exception to fit him on Boston's cap. And at the end of the year, when his contract expires again with Boston, he'll again have full Bird rights.

Except ...

For a player who signs in EXACTLY this sort of setup, where he signs a one-year deal and will have Bird rights at the end, he can't be traded without permission. And if he gives permission, the trade will erase all his Bird rights that have accumulated - in the same way that signing a contract with a new team erases Bird rights up to that point.

When you say you "can't find something in the CBA saying that," the problem is, you're looking right at it. The first paragraph (see below) defines the situation (which Green is in) and then describes the "no trade without permission" aspect. The second paragraph tells the consequences of giving permission - the loss of Bird rights, in technical language.

"A player with a one-year Contract (excluding any Option Year) who would be a Qualifying Veteran Free Agent or an Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agent upon completing the playing services called for under his Contract cannot be traded without the player’s consent.

"Should the player consent and be traded, then, for purposes of determining whether the player is a Qualifying Veteran Free Agent, Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agent or Non-Qualifying Veteran Free Agent at the conclusion of the Contract or any subsequent Contract between the player and the assignee Team, the player shall be considered as having changed Teams by means of signing a Contract with the assignee Team as a Free Agent (and not by means of trade)."

[mysticbb]

DBoys, what you want/ed to say is easy to understand, there is no confusion at all about your view here. I understand that you think that this rule would be applied to Green's situation. I dispute that and I tried to explain it multiple times why I think so. The only thing I want to see from you is that players signed with the Bird exception are losing the Bird rights when traded. Where can I find that in the CBA? That is my question, everything else would fall in place, if you can show me that.

[DBoys]

Mystic, it says it in the passage I have quoted several times. When I put it right in front of you and say "there" and then you tell me you can't find it, I'm not sure what else to tell you. But I'll do it again:

V THERE V

"Should the player consent and be traded, then, for purposes of determining whether the player is a Qualifying Veteran Free Agent, Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agent or Non-Qualifying Veteran Free Agent at the conclusion of the Contract or any subsequent Contract between the player and the assignee Team, the player shall be considered as having changed Teams by means of signing a Contract with the assignee Team as a Free Agent (and not by means of trade)."

^ THERE ^

Maybe you don't understand that if you change teams by signing a Contract, your Bird rights start over?

And this situation clearly is where Green is at the moment - so when you say you "don't agree" that Green is in that circumstance, I'm not sure what you're missing. What do you think doesn't fit?

[DBoys]

PS When you say "The only thing I want to see from you is that players signed with the Bird exception are losing the Bird rights when traded" - you need to be aware that I am not saying that a player loses their Bird rights in every trade of every sort. In the usual situation, a trade allows Bird rights to continue. But it's different in this one specific type of situation, and it's outlined within its own special rule which includes wording saying that Bird rights are handled in this type of trade not like they are handled in other trades, but rather in the way that Bird rights are handled in a free agent signing.

[chakdaddy]

Not to dredge up an old post, but isn't the rule to stop this sort of cap circumvention:

Miami wants Jeff Green but is over the cap.

Boston re-signs Green to an easily tradeable 1 year minimum contract.

After 3 months Green is traded to Miami for a cheap rookie + picks.

Then, if the Bird rights carried over, Miami could then re-sign him to a multiyear Chris Dudley contract at the end of the year.

In other words, I think the rule is designed to keep teams from re-signing players to cheap but Bird-rights-preserving 1 year contracts and then trading them to capped out teams that want to do Dudley style wink-wink deals.

[Dunkenstein]

The rule states that it applies to players "gaining" the status of Early Qualifying or Qualifying veteran upon completion of that final year. That's why George was able to block the proposed trade, because George by getting traded would have lost the chance of getting Early Qualifying veteran status for his upcoming free agency.

The clock for Green wouldn't start new, at least I can't find something in the CBA saying that. He signed a contract as a Qualifying veteran with his prior team (the Celtics). Signing this contract didn't restart his clock at all. He is still a Qualifying veteran when the contract runs out. If that is wrong, can you please point out the Article and Section in the CBA, because, as I stated, I can't find that under trade rules what Coon is saying. It also doesn't seem to be in agreement with the explanation in Article I what a Qualifying veteran is.

The rule in Article VII, Section 8(b) does not discuss "gaining" the status of Early Qualifying or Qualifying veteran upon completion of a one-year contract. It deals with a player who will "be" a Qualifying Veteran Free Agent or an Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agent upon completing the playing services called for under his Contract. This applies both to players who signed as few as two one-year contracts with a new team, or to full Bird players like Green who signed a one-year contract upon completion of his rookie contract which was assigned to the Celtics via trade.

You are correct that Green's Bird clock did not reset when he signed the one-year contract. And if he completes this contract with the Celtics, he will continue to be a Qualifying Veteran Free Agent.

However, the rule clearly states that if a player on a one-year contract, regardless of whether he was a non-Bird, early Bird or full Bird free agent when he signed the one-year contract, agrees to be traded to another team, "the player shall be considered as having changed Teams by means of signing a Contract with the assignee Team as a Free Agent (and not by means of trade)." In other words the trade is treated as a free agent signing which results in the resetting of his Bird clock with his new team, and he loses what ever Bird status he would have had if he had completed his one-year contract with his original team.

[Dunkenstein]

While all the foregoing was an interesting academic exercise, it was all based on an incorrect premise. ESPN wrote today:

If and when Jeff Green returns to the NBA -- and the encouraging news heading into his heart surgery next week is that he likely will -- he will have plenty of choices as to his next employer. That's because the Boston Celtics, in a move that was not made public, withdrew Green's qualifying offer in mid-December, right around the time he failed his physical and had his one-year, $9 million contract voided. The move means Green is now an unrestricted free agent.

[FGump]

What's the premise that was incorrect? The idea that Green had a one-year contract? His contract being voided apparently had not yet happened when the original discussion in this thread about his one year contract took place.