OT - Concussions

[whysoserious]

What are peoples thoughts on what's going on? It's obviously become a bigger topic over the past week with so many guys out, Crosby back out and Pronger. I don't seem to hear a lot of people with solutions that are legit.

What do you guys think?

One thing I think that a lot of people fail to mention is something that Don Cherry has mentioned several times over the years. The fact that a lot of the protection these guys wear, is now actually like a suit of armour and a weapon. Especially the elbow and shoulder pads. Before they were soft but now with plastic/fiberglass they are rock solid which means your head, even with a helmet is being hit by something solid and if it's against the boards it's between two solid objects.

[YogiStewart]

players are taller, players are stronger.
skating is stronger, skates are better, lighter and better blades.

Momentum: Mass x velocity.
You have larger players moving faster. this means that each impact has more momentum.

so what do you do?
one idea i had is changing the skates, thereby slowing players down. lots of ways to cheat, though.
perhaps eliminating solid body checks that have intent to injure (keep in mind that the original goal of checking wasn't to plaster a player to the boards).
perhaps designing a helmet that has a water bed-like cushion to act more like a shock absorber? not sure.
people have talked about a bigger rink. my worry? more space means more velocity, so you haven't solved the problem.

One thing I think that a lot of people fail to mention is something that Don Cherry has mentioned several times over the years. The fact that a lot of the protection these guys wear, is now actually like a suit of armour and a weapon. Especially the elbow and shoulder pads. Before they were soft but now with plastic/fiberglass they are rock solid which means your head, even with a helmet is being hit by something solid and if it's against the boards it's between two solid objects.

Cherry's an idiot. he has a bit of a point about the pads being rock hard, but unless you replace with with impact-absorbing material, you still have players that weigh up to 100 lbs more than players did 20 years ago, and travelling 50% (or more) faster than players did 20 years ago. therefore you still have lots of momentum.

[J-Roc]

Irony is that one of the solutions presented is a helmet with even more protection. It's a big dome style I believe. But if that came about these guys would feel more comfortable hitting harder.

The real issue is that we know more about concussions that before. Is Crosby out because he's throwing up every night? Is Pronger out because he has nosebleeds? Probably not. More like they just have headaches two days in a row or something. Not to say they're not concussions, but the issue is that almost everyone in these hard hitting sports will get concussed at some point.

These days they're finding out kids playing soccer are getting concussions from heading the ball!! The solution?? No one wants to face it, but the solution is that certain sports have worn out their welcome. Hockey, football, boxing.... They say a concussion can take 10yrs off your life. Therefore a concussion is almost like dying early. Therefore these are sports where part of the goal is to beat each other up to death. It's over for those sports....

[whysoserious]

players are taller, players are stronger.
skating is stronger, skates are better, lighter and better blades.

Momentum: Mass x velocity.
You have larger players moving faster. this means that each impact has more momentum.

so what do you do?
one idea i had is changing the skates, thereby slowing players down. lots of ways to cheat, though.
perhaps eliminating solid body checks that have intent to injure (keep in mind that the original goal of checking wasn't to plaster a player to the boards).
perhaps designing a helmet that has a water bed-like cushion to act more like a shock absorber? not sure.
people have talked about a bigger rink. my worry? more space means more velocity, so you haven't solved the problem.

One thing I think that a lot of people fail to mention is something that Don Cherry has mentioned several times over the years. The fact that a lot of the protection these guys wear, is now actually like a suit of armour and a weapon. Especially the elbow and shoulder pads. Before they were soft but now with plastic/fiberglass they are rock solid which means your head, even with a helmet is being hit by something solid and if it's against the boards it's between two solid objects.

Cherry's an idiot. he has a bit of a point about the pads being rock hard, but unless you replace with with impact-absorbing material, you still have players that weigh up to 100 lbs more than players did 20 years ago, and travelling 50% (or more) faster than players did 20 years ago. therefore you still have lots of momentum.

Cherry is a bit of an idiot sometimes, but sometimes he does have valid points. While I never meant to say that the equipment was the main reasons for concussions and severe injuries, it's one that gets very little attention. The knee on knee hits with hard knee pads, the elbows to the face and what not. It is a contributing factor that no one seems to talk about much.

[YogiStewart]

eliminate elbows to the face and then you don't worry about how hard equipment is.
that's pretty logical to me.

i played hockey on Thursday. beer league.
i was playing D and took a slapshot from the point off my left bicep. i'm not playing with rock solid shoulder pads, but i can't imagine how that would feel if i was playing with softer equipment.

also, google images of Crosby or Pronger. note where their chin straps sit. pronger's would hang to his adam's apple. the helmet's nothing more than a decoration if its not strapped in properly. now, it wouldn't have done anything to stop the concussion from the stick he got to the eye, but it may have stopped others.

NHL neanderthals will learn the hard way that the sport's evolved. checking to rub a player off the puck is fine. but checking with intent to smoke a guy out of the rink? that should be a 2 game suspension. eliminate the big hits. fans may get pissed, but big hits don't necessarily win games. guys with talent win games.

[LLJ]

As Yogi said, players these days are HUUUUGE and mobile.

And there's rumblings that steroids in the NHL is just waiting to become a top news story. It's big, maybe worse than the NFL even.

[J-Roc]

Just saw CBC do a little highlight package showing some of the best recent hits. It was something like "players giving out presents" to each other. Anyway, one of the great hits was Lucic taking out Ryan Miller. They had more than enough other legal hits to show on the package, but they had to stick that one in. Goon mentality even in the hockey media.

[YogiStewart]

don't get me started about hockey mentality. there's this hockey code they talk about which is absolutely ridiculous. the best way to get revenge on a team or player is by scoring, not by checking or fighting. plain and simple.
the GMs are neanderthals. the analysts and colour guys are neanderthals.
the game would be significantly better if size and strength wasn't given such a high priority. its the smaller, skilled guys that make the game fun.

[J-Roc]

Too simplistic to say it's all about the small players. Problem is that contact is a legit way to stop a player from advancing. So even if all the players were small, they'd have to same pressure to lay a guy out to slow him down.

And I don't think the Olympics are a good example. Players aren't playing for jobs in the Olympics. It's a one-off and most games are blowouts and the close games are played by players who play on the same teams in the NHL.

[UN-Owen]

Just saw CBC do a little highlight package showing some of the best recent hits. It was something like "players giving out presents" to each other. Anyway, one of the great hits was Lucic taking out Ryan Miller. They had more than enough other legal hits to show on the package, but they had to stick that one in. Goon mentality even in the hockey media.

I'm 100% against fighting in hockey. If I want to see fights I'll tune into the UFC

But I saw nothing wrong with Lucic's hit on Miller

When goalies leave their crease to play the puck then they're fair game

[J-Roc]

Just saw CBC do a little highlight package showing some of the best recent hits. It was something like "players giving out presents" to each other. Anyway, one of the great hits was Lucic taking out Ryan Miller. They had more than enough other legal hits to show on the package, but they had to stick that one in. Goon mentality even in the hockey media.

I'm 100% against fighting in hockey. If I want to see fights I'll tune into the UFC

But I saw nothing wrong with Lucic's hit on Miller

When goalies leave their crease to play the puck then they're fair game

I can see a bit of that, like when a goalie turns his body to shield the offensive player from the puck. But with that Lucic hit, that was obviously Lucic going the extra mile to hurt the other team's goalie. Unnecessary shenanigans.

[YogiStewart]

name another sport that has "fair game"?

its 2012 (just around the corner). enough with this mentality that you need to kill someone.
the NFL now protects its quarterbacks. just wait until concussions are discussed more in the NFL. it will be a game changer.

hockey needs to change and evolve. just like Bobby Orr re-defined a defenceman, concussions will re-define how the game needs to be played.
allow hitting to move a player off the puck. eliminate open-ice hits or violent hits. i love a big check, but no more. it ruins the game.

[J-Roc]

^^
So how would you deal with the situation of a goalie turning his body to protect the puck out of the crease? Does that mean he's "home free" and the offensive player has to skate off? Should they just eliminate all hitting? Should the whistle blow as soon as the goalie gets close to the puck?

The NFL tries to protect its QB's, but if a QB just turns his body to try to protect the ball, he can get belted legally.

[YogiStewart]

and, sure enough, here comes a lawsuit against the NFL:

http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/4-forme ... 67844.html

J-Roc: i play beer league hockey. somehow, we play well enough without nailing goalies. the goalie plays the puck and you either block the boards or you try to poke it off his stick. goalie sticks are big and clumsy. you catch a goalie out of the net and its game over for him. if he freezes the puck against the boards? delay of game penalty.

[Crowned]

I've said this elsewhere somewhere on here, goalies have never been fair game to anyone. Over the past few weeks, we've seen a bunch of idiots run goalies intentionally. Goaltenders are not trained to receive a hit when out of the crease. It's too difficult to do.

It's a mutual respect amongst players that you don't hit each other's goalies, otherwise it'd be a free for all, and you'll see teams call up goalies from the ECHL due to injuries.

[UN-Owen]

Just saw CBC do a little highlight package showing some of the best recent hits. It was something like "players giving out presents" to each other. Anyway, one of the great hits was Lucic taking out Ryan Miller. They had more than enough other legal hits to show on the package, but they had to stick that one in. Goon mentality even in the hockey media.

I'm 100% against fighting in hockey. If I want to see fights I'll tune into the UFC

But I saw nothing wrong with Lucic's hit on Miller

When goalies leave their crease to play the puck then they're fair game

I can see a bit of that, like when a goalie turns his body to shield the offensive player from the puck. But with that Lucic hit, that was obviously Lucic going the extra mile to hurt the other team's goalie. Unnecessary shenanigans.

I saw it as a bodycheck, not an attempt to injure

[UN-Owen]

I've said this elsewhere somewhere on here, goalies have never been fair game to anyone. Over the past few weeks, we've seen a bunch of idiots run goalies intentionally. Goaltenders are not trained to receive a hit when out of the crease. It's too difficult to do.

It's a mutual respect amongst players that you don't hit each other's goalies, otherwise it'd be a free for all, and you'll see teams call up goalies from the ECHL due to injuries.

Then they should stay in their crease

[YogiStewart]

I've said this elsewhere somewhere on here, goalies have never been fair game to anyone. Over the past few weeks, we've seen a bunch of idiots run goalies intentionally. Goaltenders are not trained to receive a hit when out of the crease. It's too difficult to do.

It's a mutual respect amongst players that you don't hit each other's goalies, otherwise it'd be a free for all, and you'll see teams call up goalies from the ECHL due to injuries.

Then they should stay in their crease

and forwards should stay on the bench so they don't get hit?
not sure what you're saying.

goalies are off limits. end of story. doesn't matter where they are on the ice.

[UN-Owen]

I've said this elsewhere somewhere on here, goalies have never been fair game to anyone. Over the past few weeks, we've seen a bunch of idiots run goalies intentionally. Goaltenders are not trained to receive a hit when out of the crease. It's too difficult to do.

It's a mutual respect amongst players that you don't hit each other's goalies, otherwise it'd be a free for all, and you'll see teams call up goalies from the ECHL due to injuries.

Then they should stay in their crease

and forwards should stay on the bench so they don't get hit?
not sure what you're saying.

goalies are off limits. end of story. doesn't matter where they are on the ice.

After looking at the rules at NHL.com, I must admit I was wrong

I thought goalies were treated as skaters if they played the puck outside the crease