Official Speculation & Free Agency Thread (Part IX)

[rcklsscognition]

So for the trade Dwight for picks people here, give us your presentations. What picks would we get, who would we choose, and how would they develop within our organization. 2 year forecast, 4 year, 7 year?

[arkknight1988]

is hedo still in the starting lineup? if so i am worried

[MagicMan89]

So for the trade Dwight for picks people here, give us your presentations. What picks would we get, who would we choose, and how would they develop within our organization. 2 year forecast, 4 year, 7 year?

You can take a role player and ship them out for a pick. Look at San Antonio just last draft turned Hill into thier SF of the future. Why cant we do the same with Anderson?
The Dwight trade is the one you wait on. We have to take whatever offer has the most value in terms of picks/tradable assets/cap flexability.
As far as the future of the picks, nobody knows. The higher the pick the more of a selection you have to get your guy. We have always been able to get free agents with our cap room, so I dont see how it hurts to blow up the team and rebuild. Kevin Love would look good in a Magic uniform. This team is starting to have the T-Mac era feel, complete with early exit, finger pointing, and a star the has mentally checked out. I do not believe those players in the Magic locker room think they can win it all.

[MagicFan41]

Just saw Dwight's shooting coach, Ed Snuffaluffagopolis/Telekinesis/Talksalotalis out at bar downtown. He told the bartender friend of mine "there is no move the Magic can make to keep him, he is gone to either Nets or Lakers." I know this guy seems to like to talk a lot so he gets himself in the media and such.....seems to like himself heard......but more and more signs are just pointing this way. If THAT is the case though.....if we do somehow bring another piece in and he still says he is gone, SOMEBODY better be holding me back when he returns...

[MagicFan41]

That being said....until all the facts are out/he is traded etc etc.....we better (even reluctantly like myself) cheer him on. For the betterment of the team. Just like we are imo acting all friendly with NJ at the moment to increase our possible trade leverage....with should (even fakely) cheer Dwight on. Booing will only cause distractions to our team etc. IF he does end up bolting/getting traded.....UNLEASH LIVING HELL UPON HIM. I'm simply going to act at every step in the best interest of the Magic. That's where my loyalties lie, and will ALWAYS lie. I love it how somehow....he can be committed to the Magic for 7 years and then just out of the blue want out, but THAT's ok and we should still love him, but we can't do the same (be committed to him for 7 yrs, but after he abandons us, we can't want "out" from Dwight)?? Typical rich, uneducated celebrity hypocrisy.

[D12orl]

Just saw Dwight's shooting coach, Ed Snuffaluffagopolis/Telekinesis/Talksalotalis out at bar downtown. He told the bartender friend of mine "there is no move the Magic can make to keep him, he is gone to either Nets or Lakers." I know this guy seems to like to talk a lot so he gets himself in the media and such.....seems to like himself heard......but more and more signs are just pointing this way. If THAT is the case though.....if we do somehow bring another piece in and he still says he is gone, SOMEBODY better be holding me back when he returns...

same... this dude better not lead us on like a bad date, if so he is just gonna lebron himself.

[MagicFan41]

So for the trade Dwight for picks people here, give us your presentations. What picks would we get, who would we choose, and how would they develop within our organization. 2 year forecast, 4 year, 7 year?

You can take a role player and ship them out for a pick. Look at San Antonio just last draft turned Hill into thier SF of the future. Why cant we do the same with Anderson?
The Dwight trade is the one you wait on. We have to take whatever offer has the most value in terms of picks/tradable assets/cap flexability.
As far as the future of the picks, nobody knows. The higher the pick the more of a selection you have to get your guy. We have always been able to get free agents with our cap room, so I dont see how it hurts to blow up the team and rebuild. Kevin Love would look good in a Magic uniform. This team is starting to have the T-Mac era feel, complete with early exit, finger pointing, and a star the has mentally checked out. I do not believe those players in the Magic locker room think they can win it all.

Everybody....please learn the meaning of RESTRICTED FREE AGENT. And then name me, please, one player who WON'T get matched (especially now with extreme salary floors) who we will sign in the next 3 years? This mentality of clearing cap-space and loading up on picks is so damn shortsighted. Oooooo, here's an idea! Let's tank for years.....draft/sign a superstar.....groom them in their primes so we almost get there....and then......................let's have them demand out/walk a year or two later. Only happened a few times here. That sounds like a genius plan. Not to mention, we've never really done ANYTHING draft-wise without a top 10 pick basically (which the majority of all these supposed picks we want, certainly won't be). PLUS....RDV wants to win, and win now, and I don't blame him. We have committed to going over the cap/luxury tax. We now have a little bit of that leverage (tradeability with almost every team - hell could theoretically even take on somebody like Kobe's contract, which very few teams in the league could realistically...which is why I actually think, among MANY reasons, amnestying Gil NOW, not ever, was completely dumb). Rebuilding in the future of the NBA is going to be VERY different than in the past given the new CBA rules/culture of superteams.

BTW, did anybody check out the GSW game tonight....Monta completely dominated....some insane passing. How surprising.....all of you who claim he is overrated....I can't wait for you to quiet down this year. Scola in Houston tonight also looked fantastic.

This whole idea of loading up on picks to one day HOPEFULLY get an all-star on the team is ASININE. Why wouldn't you want to trade for 1-2 allstars + possibly 1-2 potential allstar level players ALREADY?? What is this hard-on thing with having to groom them and wait 3-5 years in HOPES they turn into an allstar? WTF? I've proposed about 10 different trades that I think, if we can get Bynum+Gasol, make us a better team RIGHT AWAY than we already have now. We could very likely have (Kevin Martin+Scola)+(Monta+Wright)/Jsmoov/Iggy all available at our fingertips in the immediate future. This foolishness about that not being competitive is simply ridiculous. Instead, lets hope that we can maybe one day luck into another Dwight? Genius...

[eyriq]

You build around top ten talent and outside of maybe Gasol I don't see a trade of Dwight netting us another franchise guy (and I don't think Gasol is a franchise guy anyway, so that point is moot). So lets say you trade him for the Martins, Montas, Iggys, Smiths of the world, good job, you are the Hawks or the Trailblazers or the Rockets, etc. Lets say we even go so far as to keep Bynum and flip Gasol into one of those other guys, GREAT, but still not contending. We've built a solid team up from the ground floor via free agency with the Mcgrady and Hill signings, so it can be done in Orlando, and twice now we've built contenders up from the draft, so we know that can work here too. Unfortunately all three times we've been bitten by bad luck or fickle super stars. Try and try again, but thinking we can build a contender by trading Howard for immediate contending pieces flies in the face of the NBA history of trading super stars; teams that trade their stars do not contend. We'd try to, naively, and instead relegate ourselves to the periphery, neither good enough to contend for a title, or bad enough to contend for a lottery stud. No thanks. I'll take cap space for free agency and picks for drafting EVERY TIME.

Edit: Otis needs to follow the blueprint set out by Oklahoma City if we have to rebuild, not by the Isiah Thomas Knicks.

[aggo]

Knicks fan here, hope Dwight stays!

Could you guys please pop into this thread and tell Knicks fan how Gilbert played last year? thx!
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1145310&start=45

[MagicFan41]

You build around top ten talent and outside of maybe Gasol I don't see a trade of Dwight netting us another franchise guy (and I don't think Gasol is a franchise guy anyway, so that point is moot). So lets say you trade him for the Martins, Montas, Iggys, Smiths of the world, good job, you are the Hawks or the Trailblazers or the Rockets, etc. Lets say we even go so far as to keep Bynum and flip Gasol into one of those other guys, GREAT, but still not contending. We've built a solid team up from the ground floor via free agency with the Mcgrady and Hill signings, so it can be done in Orlando, and twice now we've built contenders up from the draft, so we know that can work here too. Unfortunately all three times we've been bitten by bad luck or fickle super stars. Try and try again, but thinking we can build a contender by trading Howard for immediate contending pieces flies in the face of the NBA history of trading super stars; teams that trade their stars do not contend. We'd try to, naively, and instead relegate ourselves to the periphery, neither good enough to contend for a title, or bad enough to contend for a lottery stud. No thanks. I'll take cap space for free agency and picks for drafting EVERY TIME.

Edit: Otis needs to follow the blueprint set out by Oklahoma City if we have to rebuild, not by the Isiah Thomas Knicks.

First of all.....superstars in the past DIDN'T just bolt all the time.....so there's not a huge sample size to really base that off of. Shaq walked, Orlando got nothing. Bosh walked, Toronto got nothing. Lebron walked, Cleveland got nothing. Outside of that, how many superstars in the past honestly bolted in their primes where the team they were on traded them for pieces? I've said it before, I'll say it again, name ONE team in the past 20 yrs who won a championship without at least one established veteran of close to 30+ who played an integral part in that championship? Not one. In 20 years. OKC and Memphis are great young case-studies, but they are also extreme instances. MANY teams have tried to "rebuild" and failed miserably. I wouldn't exactly say that our team with Hill/Mcgrady was a "solid" team. How many playoff series did they win again? (yes, I know that Hill's injury was an ENORMOUS part of that....but again, for the 10th time....please name me at least 2 free agents in the next 3 years who we are going to go after that will somehow make us better than a team with Bynum (or flipped pieces like Monta + Wright) and Gasol (or flipped pieces like Scola+Martin), along with the already pretty deep team that we have (yes, Jameer+Jrich+Ryan+BBD+etc etc is a deep team along with those pieces....very deep). I LOVE how people forget that we made it to the Finals 2 years ago, the ECF 1 yr ago, and then ran into injuries and a horrible matchup where everyone went cold and still barely lost that series this year. It's not like this team sucks. It doesn't. As I've said....unless some new super-talent emerges who want to then forego their Bird right opportunity at the earlier stage in their career (not always likely) when they haven't made money yet....and then MULTIPLE of those guys want to come here....this is a shortsighted strategy. Not saying it can't occur, but I think you take your chances with established all-star caliber guys, and a few of them....and make a run with that. If that doesn't work, then they will basically all be off of the books in 3 years or so, and then you can try your FA experiment with all the caproom in the world. Until somebody presents me with a real plan (names, years, $$$s etc) and not the all-too-cliche current idea (build up picks and caproom), I'm not buying into it. Everybody looks at OKC and then just acts like this is so easy to do. LOL! Right because there are SO many OKCs out there (hell you could argue this is the exact same philosophy Minnesota has been following post-Garnett, and we all know what a POWERHOUSE Minnesota has been over the past 5 years with that caproom and tons of high picks - same with the Clippers up until about 1 year ago.)

Back to the original counterpoint though....can you name me one time, literally ONE time where a superstar bolted and a team was able to get back the caliber of talent of Bynum+Gasol (or the potential flipped talent of something like Martin+Dragic+Scola+Monta+Wright+top Houston draft pick)? I just want to know what basis you have to say that a team that gets that sort of talent back for basically one guy (along with another guy nobody wants on the team evidently in Turk) can't compete?

[MagicFan41]

I also think it's really funny that Dwight wants to go to a team like the Lakers "because we can't win with this team in Orlando" who got SWEPT in the 2nd round (so essentially really didn't do much better than we did).....WITH the pieces of Kobe+Odom+Gasol+Bynum. Odom is now gone, Gasol+Bynum might very well be gone after the trade.....and now you are going to a MUCH less deep team with a year-older Kobe, a team that would then have like 80% of its cap going to two players in Kobe and Dwight, with very little cap maneuverability for years to come?

[MagicFan41]

Let's also not forget, many times that process is a crapshoot -

WE were one coin-flip decision away from taking Okafor instead and becoming the Bobcats.
OKC was one coin-flip decision (on Blazers' part) away from getting Oden instead of Durant and becoming the Blazers - and the same with the other way around.
Clippers have had tons of #1 picks/high picks, didn't do ANYTHING until Blake
MN has had tons of high picks, still haven't really done anything.

It's nice to look back in hindsight and act like every team can simply build instant contenders through the draft, but the reality is, it almost never happens.

In fact, it was about 8 months ago when everyone was still laughing their asses (many still are) off about the Pau-Memphis trade before Marc emerged and got a max deal this summer and those same people were talking nonstop smack about how overrated Z-Bo was (yup, I remember right before the trade deadline when I suggested we try to go after him how everyone said how AWFUL he was). Hindsight is beautiful sometimes huh? Now all of a sudden, Memphis is such an amazing team and we should model ourselves after something like them? Pick your stance and stick with it (not you specifically - i don't know your views on those things, just many people who comment).


And I may be wrong....but I'm willing to bet that New Orleans (after that eventual trade that got everybody on this board to all wet themselves with excitement) is completely irrelevant for the next 5+ years.

[RickB-Orlando]

Maybe I'm being overly skeptical but these highlights don't impress me at all. It's easy to filter out all the bad stuff and string together a clip of highlights to make a guy look good but while I'm looking at this video I'm seeing Wafer:

- Take a ton of really bad, well-contested shots.
- Drive to the right and ALWAYS go up for a weak lay-up
- Take a jumper every time he's going to his left
- Not get a lot of lift on his layups

Basically just a lot of moves that make him look good against inferior players that wouldn't work in the NBA. Most of those layups would get blocked either by his defender or weak-side help.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDPUN8ktnOM[/youtube]

Now these highlights impress me....The thing is i don't know where Stan will put him in the Rotation...Will he go Loyalty over Talent? As much as i love JJ he didn't really impress me in the practice of course it's only first impression....To be honest neither did J-Rich...Let me wait until the game tomorrow to make further judgement

The biggest barrier to success for Von Wafer has always been Von Wafer.
The guy has always been a bit of a head case.

If he has straightened himself out, then great, maybe a year with Doc and the Celtic vets helped him get his head on straight. I hope so, otherwise he's likely to be just another great talent that goes unrealized.

[Darth Magic]

I LOVE how people forget that we made it to the Finals 2 years ago, the ECF 1 yr ago, and then ran into injuries and a horrible matchup where everyone went cold and still barely lost that series this year. It's not like this team sucks. It doesn't. As I've said....unless some new super-talent emerges who want to then forego their Bird right opportunity at the earlier stage in their career (not always likely) when they haven't made money yet....and then MULTIPLE of those guys want to come here....this is a shortsighted strategy. Not saying it can't occur, but I think you take your chances with established all-star caliber guys, and a few of them....and make a run with that. If that doesn't work, then they will basically all be off of the books in 3 years or so, and then you can try your FA experiment with all the caproom in the world. Until somebody presents me with a real plan (names, years, $$$s etc) and not the all-too-cliche current idea (build up picks and caproom), I'm not buying into it. Everybody looks at OKC and then just acts like this is so easy to do. LOL! Right because there are SO many OKCs out there (hell you could argue this is the exact same philosophy Minnesota has been following post-Garnett, and we all know what a POWERHOUSE Minnesota has been over the past 5 years with that caproom and tons of high picks - same with the Clippers up until about 1 year ago.)

Back to the original counterpoint though....can you name me one time, literally ONE time where a superstar bolted and a team was able to get back the caliber of talent of Bynum+Gasol (or the potential flipped talent of something like Martin+Dragic+Scola+Monta+Wright+top Houston draft pick)? I just want to know what basis you have to say that a team that gets that sort of talent back for basically one guy (along with another guy nobody wants on the team evidently in Turk) can't compete?

Beautiful post Magicfan41.

[tiderulz]

That being said....until all the facts are out/he is traded etc etc.....we better (even reluctantly like myself) cheer him on. For the betterment of the team. Just like we are imo acting all friendly with NJ at the moment to increase our possible trade leverage....with should (even fakely) cheer Dwight on. Booing will only cause distractions to our team etc. IF he does end up bolting/getting traded.....UNLEASH LIVING HELL UPON HIM. I'm simply going to act at every step in the best interest of the Magic. That's where my loyalties lie, and will ALWAYS lie. I love it how somehow....he can be committed to the Magic for 7 years and then just out of the blue want out, but THAT's ok and we should still love him, but we can't do the same (be committed to him for 7 yrs, but after he abandons us, we can't want "out" from Dwight)?? Typical rich, uneducated celebrity hypocrisy.

thats the thing. To hear it, it isnt out of the blue, but Otis hasnt been doing anything he wants. No scrappy players, no defenders. Im sure Dwight is a bit tired of completely carrying the team.

[Darth Magic]

That being said....until all the facts are out/he is traded etc etc.....we better (even reluctantly like myself) cheer him on. For the betterment of the team. Just like we are imo acting all friendly with NJ at the moment to increase our possible trade leverage....with should (even fakely) cheer Dwight on. Booing will only cause distractions to our team etc. IF he does end up bolting/getting traded.....UNLEASH LIVING HELL UPON HIM. I'm simply going to act at every step in the best interest of the Magic. That's where my loyalties lie, and will ALWAYS lie. I love it how somehow....he can be committed to the Magic for 7 years and then just out of the blue want out, but THAT's ok and we should still love him, but we can't do the same (be committed to him for 7 yrs, but after he abandons us, we can't want "out" from Dwight)?? Typical rich, uneducated celebrity hypocrisy.

thats the thing. To hear it, it isnt out of the blue, but Otis hasnt been doing anything he wants. No scrappy players, no defenders. Im sure Dwight is a bit tired of completely carrying the team.

Lets see, we had Anthony Johnson, Mikael Pietrus, Q-Richardson, Matt Barnes, Rafer Alston, over the past three years. Forget that during our finals run two years ago we were being labeled a dirty team. But no, Otis hasn't brought in a single defender and scrappy player. Not at all

[MagicStarwipe]

That being said....until all the facts are out/he is traded etc etc.....we better (even reluctantly like myself) cheer him on. For the betterment of the team. Just like we are imo acting all friendly with NJ at the moment to increase our possible trade leverage....with should (even fakely) cheer Dwight on. Booing will only cause distractions to our team etc. IF he does end up bolting/getting traded.....UNLEASH LIVING HELL UPON HIM. I'm simply going to act at every step in the best interest of the Magic. That's where my loyalties lie, and will ALWAYS lie. I love it how somehow....he can be committed to the Magic for 7 years and then just out of the blue want out, but THAT's ok and we should still love him, but we can't do the same (be committed to him for 7 yrs, but after he abandons us, we can't want "out" from Dwight)?? Typical rich, uneducated celebrity hypocrisy.

thats the thing. To hear it, it isnt out of the blue, but Otis hasnt been doing anything he wants. No scrappy players, no defenders. Im sure Dwight is a bit tired of completely carrying the team.

Lets see, we had Anthony Johnson, Mikael Pietrus, Q-Richardson, Matt Barnes, Rafer Alston, over the past three years. Forget that during our finals run two years ago we were being labeled a dirty team. But no, Otis hasn't brought in a single defender and scrappy player. Not at all

Anthony Johnson was horrible. You serious? Pietrus just checked step back fadeaway 3's and stepped out of bounds every other play. Was really a pretty lazy player. Q-Rich was useless last season. Matt Barnes I'll give you. He lasted a season. Alston I'll give you. He lasted a season. We weren't being labelled a dirty team. Dwight was being labeled a dirty player.

[Darth Magic]

Anthony Johnson was horrible. You serious? Pietrus just checked step back fadeaway 3's and stepped out of bounds every other play. Was really a pretty lazy player. Q-Rich was useless last season. Matt Barnes I'll give you. He lasted a season. Alston I'll give you. He lasted a season. We weren't being labelled a dirty team. Dwight was being labeled a dirty player.

You know, am really getting sick and tired of the revisionist history of Magic fans. Thank God for the internet.


Anthony Johnson was terrible? You mean the guy who stepped up and played big for us in the play offs? That Anthony Johnson?

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports ... hnson.html

Praise: Stuck behind Jameer Nelson and Jason Williams on the Magic’s depth chart, Johnson didn’t receive the playing time he wanted. But like a true professional, Johnson never complained publicly. Johnson made his biggest impact when a left-knee injury forced Nelson to miss 16 games from mid-November to mid-December. Johnson’s best moment of the 2009-10 season came on Thanksgiving night, when he led the Magic to a 93-76 comeback victory over the Atlanta Hawks in Atlanta. Johnson scored 17 points, dished out three assists and didn’t have a turnover in the win. At 35 years old, Johnson was the oldest player to appear in a game for Orlando during the season, but he seems to get along well even with his youngest teammates.

You're bad mouthing Peaches now? The same guy who out scored the Cavaliers bench by himself, and also played very good defense on Lebron? That guy?

You could blame the entire Cavs bench, which was single-handedly outscored by Mickael Pietrus.

Read more: http://www.askmen.com/sports/fanatic_25 ... z1gtQvBxhx


Q-Rich may have been subpar last season, but that doesn't mean he's not a defender or has played good defense in the past?

against the Orlando Magic, Carmelo Anthony scored 25 points, but that isn’t an indicator of how well he played. Anthony struggled with his shot all game needing 24 of them to get his points. Anthony especially struggled late, not hitting a field goal in the 4th quarter, scoring just 4 points in the frame.

A lot of this had to do with the defense being played on him by Quentin Richardson. Instead of letting Anthony beat him up (something he does to most players who try to defend him), Richardson was very physical with Anthony, but in a smart way so he wouldn’t pick up too many fouls. In addition to being physical, Richardson also played very high up on Anthony, knowing that if he gets beat, he has Dwight Howard behind him to clean up his mess. This strategy was very effective:

http://nbaplaybook.com/2011/03/02/quent ... o-anthony/


So we weren't considered a dirty team huh?


http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/11783395

Another day, another playoff series, another Magic player committing a dirty play.
The Magic have earned a 2-1 series lead because they've out-hustled and out-played the Cavaliers but overall the team isn't marching to the Finals with exactly a lot of class.

No, the Magic aren't nearly as bad the Bad Boys from the 1980s or the Oakland Raiders from, well, whenever, or any other team from any other sport with a reputation for nefariousness. Nevertheless, this team is starting to cross the line from gritty to dirty. If you can't see that then you're either Dwight Howard's cousin, a Magic fan or you don't know basketball.

What else you got?

[J_Magic]

There is an opportunity here to get Jeff Green for cheap. Perhaps we can work something out for him to suit up for us next season.

He'll become an unrestricted free agent next season and is currently restricted. He has a heart condition which is no big thing, but if doctors say that he'll just have to miss 1 season...then I doubt it'll effect his ability on the court.

[Orlando Dawg]

ESPN reporting this is Arenas wish list to play this year.
• Lakers ...

• Heat ...

• Knicks ...

• Or whichever team trades for Dwight Howard.

If Gilbert goes to the heat, RDV should fire Otis. Not only did the move place what looks like the final wedge between the FO and D12, but he would help them while making 20 million per year from us.

LOL if Arenas goes to the Heat, Otis should get an extension.

NOT having Arenas on the Magic this year is going to instantly make them better.

If he goes to the Heat, it would be like the Trojan Horse. He would pop out and be like "hey what's up guys? I'm making more money than any of you, hey lets start planking! When the chips are down, put me in. I can jack up some shots! .. just don't expect me to be able to jump .. or pass while running. Or get any calls. Hey, where are all the good night clubs at? Who's with me?"