Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player

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Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player

Isiah Thomas
45
41%
Steve Nash
64
59%
 
Total votes: 109

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Re: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player 

Post#581 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:13 am

easiestplayfts wrote: What.....2 things:
1. Micheal Jordon was a SG.....And Isiah and Nash were PGs. I don't see how MJ is irrelevant to this thread? There's a huge difference between the role of a SG and a PG.

2. PG's role is to make his teammates better...which Isiah did. He had the PG position thru 3 finals and 2 championships. Nash suprisingly had 3 top regular season NBA teams that couldn't even get to the finals.

BTW, Jordan and Isiah were in the same conference...how do you think Nash would have done against Jordans Bulls?


Um, so it's only point guards whose presence determines whether or not their team wins the championship and so the fact that Jordan was on the other side of the ball when Isiah's team won has no bearing on whether the best player's team won? Right, c'mon dude, don't make this out to be something more complicated than it is. Basketball is a team game. The best individual doesn't always win.

Re: How would Nash do against Jordan's Bulls. I'll admit it, he'd do terrible, he couldn't beat the Bulls one-on-five like Isiah could simply by showing up and flexing his muscles. :wink:

As far as how the Suns would have done? Well, like the Pistons, they'd have beaten the Bulls until the Bulls got good, and then the Bulls would turn the tables.
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Re: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player 

Post#582 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:15 am

rrravenred wrote:
easiestplayfts wrote: Isiah is a basketball icon that rises above mere stats and irrelevant individual accolades.


This is the attitude that really sticks in my craw. It's an unsupportable and unanswerable statement, and to use it as a foundation for an argument (which some posters are), is like a politician in the middle of heated debate throwing up their hands and saying "God moves in mysterious ways" as if that ends the argument. If it were being added as a bit of color or an obvious and acknowledged bit of homerism then I'd really be fine with it, but some people (not necessarily you) seem to consider it a central pillar, without acknowledging that it's the fan talking, not the analyst.


Yup.

For god's sake. "Irrelevant accolades" = "The opinions of contemporary experts which are irrelevant because they were wrong and biased and not completely objective like me."
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Re: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player 

Post#583 » by easiestplayfts » Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:28 am

rrravenred wrote:
easiestplayfts wrote: Isiah is a basketball icon that rises above mere stats and irrelevant individual accolades.


This is the attitude that really sticks in my craw. It's an unsupportable and unanswerable statement, and to use it as a foundation for an argument (which some posters are), is like a politician in the middle of heated debate throwing up their hands and saying "God moves in mysterious ways" as if that ends the argument. If it were being added as a bit of color or an obvious and acknowledged bit of homerism then I'd really be fine with it, but some people (not necessarily you) seem to consider it a central pillar, without acknowledging that it's the fan talking, not the analyst.

To all Nash supporters on this thread ( and not necessarily you).
Here's are the facts:
Nash is the only regular season NBA MVP (in recorded NBA HISTORY) who has not lead their team to a finals..ever. The Suns had the best record 3-4 years in the 2000s, not one final appearence? SMDH
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Re: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player 

Post#584 » by easiestplayfts » Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:50 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
easiestplayfts wrote: What.....2 things:
1. Micheal Jordon was a SG.....And Isiah and Nash were PGs. I don't see how MJ is irrelevant to this thread? There's a huge difference between the role of a SG and a PG.

2. PG's role is to make his teammates better...which Isiah did. He had the PG position thru 3 finals and 2 championships. Nash suprisingly had 3 top regular season NBA teams that couldn't even get to the finals.

BTW, Jordan and Isiah were in the same conference...how do you think Nash would have done against Jordans Bulls?


Um, so it's only point guards whose presence determines whether or not their team wins the championship and so the fact that Jordan was on the other side of the ball when Isiah's team won has no bearing on whether the best player's team won? Right, c'mon dude, don't make this out to be something more complicated than it is. Basketball is a team game. The best individual doesn't always win.

Re: How would Nash do against Jordan's Bulls. I'll admit it, he'd do terrible, he couldn't beat the Bulls one-on-five like Isiah could simply by showing up and flexing his muscles. :wink:

As far as how the Suns would have done? Well, like the Pistons, they'd have beaten the Bulls until the Bulls got good, and then the Bulls would turn the tables.

First of all he brought up Jordan....I didn't. I just thought this thread was about point guards Nash and Isiah....because actually Joe Dumars and Jordan was the match-up, I would think.

Secondly, would love to see a thread.... current NY Knicks, Celtics, Maimi Heat, Dallas Mavericks, Kobe's lakers, 2007 Suns vs the Jordan's Bulls. But he got :offtopic:
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Re: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player 

Post#585 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:32 am

easiestplayfts wrote:
First of all he brought up Jordan....I didn't. I just thought this thread was about point guards Nash and Isiah....because actually Joe Dumars and Jordan was the match-up, I would think.

Secondly, would love to see a thread.... current NY Knicks, Celtics, Maimi Heat, Dallas Mavericks, Kobe's lakers, 2007 Suns vs the Jordan's Bulls. But he got :offtopic:


My point was that the bringing up of Jordan was a 100% legit thing to do.
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Re: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player 

Post#586 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:49 am

easiestplayfts wrote:To all Nash supporters on this thread ( and not necessarily you).
Here's are the facts:
Nash is the only regular season NBA MVP (in recorded NBA HISTORY) who has not lead their team to a finals..ever. The Suns had the best record 3-4 years in the 2000s, not one final appearence? SMDH


Nash was on a #1 seed in the West exactly one time in his entire career. In that year, they had the #2 seed until the Spurs lost Tim Duncan to injury in March, and they proceeded to lose to that same Spurs team in the WCF when the team had Duncan back again. The Spurs, of course, went on to win the title.

This notion that the Suns were regularly the best regular season team around and always managed to lose is simply false.

Re: "Only MVP who...". This would be something that might conceivably be relevant in a discussion with someone who actually won an MVP. One of the major problems with the Isiah camp seems to be that they think he did the equivalent of winning the MVP simply because he was the star of a title winner, when in reality fellow Detroit star and title winner Chauncey Billups came closer to winning an MVP.
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Re: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player 

Post#587 » by easiestplayfts » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:50 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
easiestplayfts wrote:
First of all he brought up Jordan....I didn't. I just thought this thread was about point guards Nash and Isiah....because actually Joe Dumars and Jordan was the match-up, I would think.

Secondly, would love to see a thread.... current NY Knicks, Celtics, Maimi Heat, Dallas Mavericks, Kobe's lakers, 2007 Suns vs the Jordan's Bulls. But he got :offtopic:


My point was that the bringing up of Jordan was a 100% legit thing to do.


ElGee bought up Michael Jordan on an Isiah vs Nash thread?
Just out of curiosity..... why is it 100% legit?
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Re: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player 

Post#588 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:46 am

easiestplayfts wrote:ElGee bought up Michael Jordan on an Isiah vs Nash thread?
Just out of curiosity..... why is it 100% legit?


1. The Pistons beat the Bulls.
2. Michael Jordan was on the Bulls.
3. Michael Jordan was better than anyone on the Pistons.
4. Therefore the best player's team doesn't always win.
5. Therefore any argument simply based on the fact that one player's team won and another's didn't is fundamentally unsound.

I think I can speak for most of the people reading this thread when I say this is just so obviously true, I didn't expect there to be any disagreement about it. We all assumed rebuttals would come by explaining why that wasn't what they were doing despite appearances, so for you to come back with "Jordan is a shooting guard so none of this applies to them" is concerning. It suggests that you really aren't used to debating abstract concepts in English which will make it hard for us to get anywhere.
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Re: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player 

Post#589 » by sheba021 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:21 am

Doctor MJ wrote:For god's sake. "Irrelevant accolades" = "The opinions of contemporary experts which are irrelevant because they were wrong and biased and not completely objective like me."

No, "Irrelevant accolades" because:
1) Doesn't really prove, show or mean anything since it's a mere popularity contest much like ESPY or the Oscars
2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
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Re: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player 

Post#590 » by ElGee » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:43 am

easiestplayfts wrote:
rrravenred wrote:
easiestplayfts wrote: Isiah is a basketball icon that rises above mere stats and irrelevant individual accolades.


This is the attitude that really sticks in my craw. It's an unsupportable and unanswerable statement, and to use it as a foundation for an argument (which some posters are), is like a politician in the middle of heated debate throwing up their hands and saying "God moves in mysterious ways" as if that ends the argument. If it were being added as a bit of color or an obvious and acknowledged bit of homerism then I'd really be fine with it, but some people (not necessarily you) seem to consider it a central pillar, without acknowledging that it's the fan talking, not the analyst.

To all Nash supporters on this thread ( and not necessarily you).
Here's are the facts:
Nash is the only regular season NBA MVP (in recorded NBA HISTORY) who has not lead their team to a finals..ever. The Suns had the best record 3-4 years in the 2000s, not one final appearence? SMDH


Doctor MJ answered your question about Michael Jordan, and he enumerated nicely which was more than I was going to do.

As for your other "SMDH" point...what on earth does that have to do with anything? Steve Nash didn't make the NBA FInals in the two seasons he won the MVP...which makes him exactly like 25 other MVP seasons. Indeed, the NBA MVP has been handed out 56 times and 27 times -- 48.2% of the time -- the winner hasn't played in the Finals. I don't really know what that has to do with anything, or why it make you shake your head in incredulity, but if you're asking why the TWO (not 4) Suns teams that were legit contenders didn't make it through the West, the answer is patently obvious: The San Antonio Spurs were better.

That you let the fact that they play in the same conference impact your view of *an individual* is deeply concerning. It makes me think you'd take the 16-seed in an NCAA Tournament over the NIT champ. It makes me really want to gamble with you actually.

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Re: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player 

Post#591 » by bastillon » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:17 am

I'd like people to consider how good those Spurs teams were:
http://bkref.com/tiny/nsMXF

2007 Spurs were 18th all time in SRS, 2005 Spurs were 31st (despite Duncan's injury). quite probably the best Spurs teams ever. teams Suns lost to weren't random, they were all-timers by any measure. now Suns weren't given a fair chance against the Spurs because both times there were circumstances that made the series uneven:

in 2005 Suns had Marion playing injured after Mavs series and JJ not playing in the first 2 games. Suns lost the first two games, then they split games in San Antonio after JJ returned and lost at home in game 5. all of the games were close in the 4th quarter. Suns lacked a secondary offensive option with Nash/Amare pick and roll being trapped. who would say JJ's absence didn't make impact considering this situation ?

now Nash opponents are saying that it's somehow a knock on Nash ? that he led his team into WCFs despite injury to key player down the stretch in game 2 of WCSFs ? Nash played one of the most amazing postseasons ever that year. he put up performances almost unmatched in NBA's history, like 48 pts on 26 shots or almost two strong triple-doubles in a row. he ultimately lost to the best Spurs team ever, in a tight series during each game, because of lack of interior defense. somebody tell me with a straight face what he should've done that year more ?

in 2007 the series was even less fairly played. consider how Spurs won their games:

game 1 - close finish, Nash's nosebleed
game 2 - blowout, Suns win
game 3 - Donaghy (admittedly) screwed up that game, you can watch that game - late whistles phantom calls, terrible fouls for Nash and Amare etc, non calls when Suns were fouled. I mean dude himself admitted to gambling on that particular game, I don't know how you could overlook that.
game 4 - blowout for the Suns, Horry tackles Nash when the game wasn't close anymore
game 5 - Suns play 6 man rotation, everyone is too tired to do anything, but they still come close as they lead most of the 4th quarter. lack of energy certainly hurt them in this game and this is where suspensions had the most impact. not the lone fact Amare didn't play, but without 2 big men, Suns simply didn't have enough bodies to play in that game.
game 6 - Suns too tired to do anything and come out very slow. Spurs dominate in the 1st half, but Nash makes a comeback singlehandedly in the 4th quarter (with the famous crossover on Bowen that put him on his face)

I don't think most of you remember this but there were also talks of suspending Bowen at the time because he kicked Amare in the achilles in game 2, I think. Suns fans were outrageous about that play - Amare just went back from microfracture surgery and now dirty-ass Bowen is kicking him in the achilles. if it wasn't enough Bowen came back in the next game and clearly intentionally kicked Nash in his balls. majority of NBA community thought Bowen well-deserved his ejection at this point and yet NBA decided to leave him in. IIRC also Spurs players got off the bench during one game when there was an altercation and Duncan and someone else should've been suspended.

despite all of the Suns shortcomings on the glass, I still think that team was the best in the NBA in 2007. I remember at the time I had no doubt whatsoever they'd win the title and was mad as hell after NBA made that series just lopsided in Spurs favor. lack of suspension for Bowen, Donaghy gambling his money on game 3 which he officiated, suspensions for Amare and Diaw, but not for Duncan... and despite all of that Suns still outscored the Spurs in that series. that's how much Spurs were overwhelmed in the 2 remaining games.
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Re: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player 

Post#592 » by G35 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:49 pm

ElGee wrote:Do the people voting for Isiah understand that the best player on the court doesn't always win? That there is a wide range of teams from -10 MOV teams to +10 MOV teams and that factor is PRIMARILY dependent on how many rings an individual finishes with?

It's a spectacularly simple concept that I believe they are trying not to grasp in order to protect their stance of Isiah > Nash because they have nothing else to argue.



Unfortunately for Nash when can you say that he was the best player on the court and lost. It's not like when the Lakers almost upset the Suns and Kobe was the best player on the court and lost. It's debateable whether Nash was the best player on his own team every year the Suns lost.

So yes it is spectacularly simple. Nash fans answer the question: When was Steve the best player and lost in the playoff's?
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Re: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player 

Post#593 » by G35 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:54 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:This notion that defense back then was so tough is not backed up by the objective evidence. Defense in the early 00s was FAR more effective. If you want to say that defense was a bit tougher in Isiah's time than in the mid-to-late 00s that's fine, but Nash first played in the teeth of a "defense is killing this game" era and did quite well.

Re: "This thread means Isiah's greater than Nash." Um, Isiah basically doesn't show up on the PC board normally. Meanwhile controversial Nash threads with Stockton, Kidd, whoever are around all the time. This thread thus only exists because Nash is a lightning rod for controversy on a level that very few other players are...and that probably won't ever change because there are lots of people who think him getting MVPs is a horrible injustic and a good amount of us who will remain ready to pwn those people for the forseeable future.


I'm sorry Doc you just have a different standard for ranking and rating players. I will never be "pwned" by someone defending a player that can't even make the finals and is living off of stats. Nash is overrated. No one begrudges his MVP's. Imo it's that when he won them he didn't show he was any more valuable than other players. Nash's value has a lower ceiling than others imo....
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Re: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player 

Post#594 » by G35 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:58 pm

ElGee wrote:As for your other "SMDH" point...what on earth does that have to do with anything? Steve Nash didn't make the NBA FInals in the two seasons he won the MVP...which makes him exactly like 25 other MVP seasons. Indeed, the NBA MVP has been handed out 56 times and 27 times -- 48.2% of the time -- the winner hasn't played in the Finals. I don't really know what that has to do with anything, or why it make you shake your head in incredulity, but if you're asking why the TWO (not 4) Suns teams that were legit contenders didn't make it through the West, the answer is patently obvious: The San Antonio Spurs were better.

That you let the fact that they play in the same conference impact your view of *an individual* is deeply concerning. It makes me think you'd take the 16-seed in an NCAA Tournament over the NIT champ. It makes me really want to gamble with you actually.

[And yes, arguing against winning bias is exactly like arguing against religion. I believe, even in the anonymity of the Internet, most people are uncomfortable with the notion "I was wrong."]




Can you post the percentages of one time MVP's that have never reached the finals? And also the percentages of two-time MVP's that have never reached the finals?

Why is that relevant?....perhaps Nash's value is (I know this is crazy talk because the numbers say differently but let's not be sheep) SLIGHTLY overrated.....
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Re: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player 

Post#595 » by Brenice » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:10 pm

ElGee wrote:Do the people voting for Isiah understand that the best player on the court doesn't always win? That there is a wide range of teams from -10 MOV teams to +10 MOV teams and that factor is PRIMARILY dependent on how many rings an individual finishes with?

It's a spectacularly simple concept that I believe they are trying not to grasp in order to protect their stance of Isiah > Nash because they have nothing else to argue.



How many years did it take Nash to accomplish what Zeke did in 13? Come on, give me the excuses. How many more years will it take for Nash to lead his team to the Finals?

I know it ain't about stats. I know it ain't about rings. What it is about, for captains of the team, not only captains, but captains who happen to play the "Lead" guard position(AKA Point guard)(AKA "1" position). Your job is to lead your team, somewhere. Maybe, just maybe, Nash needs to change something in his game(leadership). What is the definition of insanity? What is the definition of pride, as in too much pride?

Nash fans want to throw out they had to play the "Big Bad Wolf" San Antonio. That's why they lost. Zeke had to LEAD his team thru Bird in Beantown, Showtime Lakers, and Jordans Bulls. Nash fans will say the Celtics and Lakers were too old, and Bulls, too young or not ready or Michael needed help. But that went the same for Zeke. Bird, Magic, Jordan were Isiah's contemporaries and each led dynasties(not Zeke). Hell, Jordan was a rival. Magic and Zeke were 'kissing cousins'. The strength of the Lakers, Celtics, and Pistons were all within the same age range when considering Bird, Magic, Worthy, Isiah, Worthy, Rodman, McHale. Laimbeer was similar in age to a Parish.

To say Zeke's team didn't age with the Lakers and Celtics is ridiculous. They all had stacked squads.
You win some, you lose some. Better to have won at all then to have never won at all.

Who had the better early years? Zeke easily. Who had the better latter years? Rings or MVP's. Which do you prefer? The Mailman, Stockton, Barkley, etc. have been known to say they would give up all their individual accoloades for 1 ring. Zeke gave up his individual accolades for 2 rings and another Finals appearance. Leadership.

Nash is 15 seasons in now. Tick, Tick, Tick....Almost Midnight.
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Re: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player 

Post#596 » by G35 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:22 pm

bastillon wrote:I'd like people to consider how good those Spurs teams were:
http://bkref.com/tiny/nsMXF

2007 Spurs were 18th all time in SRS, 2005 Spurs were 31st (despite Duncan's injury). quite probably the best Spurs teams ever. teams Suns lost to weren't random, they were all-timers by any measure. now Suns weren't given a fair chance against the Spurs because both times there were circumstances that made the series uneven:

in 2005 Suns had Marion playing injured after Mavs series and JJ not playing in the first 2 games. Suns lost the first two games, then they split games in San Antonio after JJ returned and lost at home in game 5. all of the games were close in the 4th quarter. Suns lacked a secondary offensive option with Nash/Amare pick and roll being trapped. who would say JJ's absence didn't make impact considering this situation ?

despite all of the Suns shortcomings on the glass, I still think that team was the best in the NBA in 2007. I remember at the time I had no doubt whatsoever they'd win the title and was mad as hell after NBA made that series just lopsided in Spurs favor. lack of suspension for Bowen, Donaghy gambling his money on game 3 which he officiated, suspensions for Amare and Diaw, but not for Duncan... and despite all of that Suns still outscored the Spurs in that series. that's how much Spurs were overwhelmed in the 2 remaining games.


Wow that was a very in depth analysis for why someone lost. It really puts things into perspective about why the Suns came up short. There are some valid reasons to why the Suns did lose against the Spurs.

I would note that you said the 2007 Spurs SRS was 18th all time, and you state they may be the best Spurs team ever. So what were the Suns SRS during those years? Do the stats suggest the Suns should have beaten the Spurs?

What I think Nash fans don't want to accept is that there unforseen/unpredictable that is prevalent in sports. We celebrate those players that can overcome those factors and make excuses for those that can't.

I think the Patriots dynasty is a sham. I think it's all built around one play. I am an Oakland Raider fan. The Tuck Rule Call is one of the worst calls in Sports History. Eveeryone on the field, at the game and watching the game thought that was a fumble. I still think it's a fumble. The ref made the call and stuck to it. The Raiders still had an opportunity to win the game but lost in OT. I think they would have won the game.

But nobody cares. The Patriots went on to win and the rest is excuses for what could have been.....
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Re: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player 

Post#597 » by magicman1978 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:26 pm

Those Pistons were the definition of "team". Worm, Joe D, Lambs, Buddha, Spider, Aguirre, Microwave. Chuck Daly was also an excellent coach. This wasn't a case of Isiah willing his team to championships. In his championships seasons, he wasn't even a top 3 point guard in the NBA - he didn't even make any all-NBA teams. Was Isiah a great player, a great leader, a fierce competitor? Yes, to all. But don't give him undue credit and diminish that Pistons team just to prop him up.
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Re: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player 

Post#598 » by Brenice » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:26 pm

magicman1978 wrote:Those Pistons were the definition of "team". Worm, Joe D, Lambs, Buddha, Spider, Aguirre, Microwave. Chuck Daly was also an excellent coach. This wasn't a case of Isiah willing his team to championships. In his championships seasons, he wasn't even a top 3 point guard in the NBA - he didn't even make any all-NBA teams. Was Isiah a great player, a great leader, a fierce competitor? Yes, to all. But don't give him undue credit and diminish that Pistons team just to prop him up.


True. Before the Pistons competed in the finals, Zeke was getting the individual awards. That was from 1982-1987, age 21-26, while on lesser talented Piston teams(compared to the Celtics and Sixers of the 80s. 3-time first team all nba, 2-time 2nd team all nba. As the team improved to compete with the celtics, sixers, lakers, zeke had to put aside those individual things, for the team(88,89,90).

It worked. That is a full career. Balanced with individual and team awards/goals.
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Re: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player 

Post#599 » by Rapcity_11 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:28 pm

Brenice wrote:
True. Before the Pistons competed in the finals, Zeke was getting the individual awards. That was from 1982-1987, age 21-26, while on lesser talented Piston teams(compared to the Celtics and Sixers of the 80s. 3-time first team all nba, 2-time 2nd team all nba.


Zeke was a loser then, right?

Right?
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Re: Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player 

Post#600 » by sheba021 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:59 pm

Rapcity_11 wrote:
sheba021 wrote:He did the similar thing 2 years later and won. So no, he isn't.


We're talking about 88, when Isiah was a loser by definition.

1988 wasn't the only time he had outstanding playoff performances. Time to let go of the straw.
Rapcity_11 wrote:
sheba021 wrote:
Except when it matters the most, right?


No, Nash has been outstanding in the playoffs on a consistent basis.

As were English and Gervin, who cares? That is not what the argument was.
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