Derrick Rose should've never gotten a 3 point shot

[CablexDeadpool]

to be an elite slashing player you do need a respectable three point shot. nobody knocks wade for shooting sub 30% from three most times

otherwise you're demar derozan

because Wade gets to the line 8 to 10 times a game and he doesn't take 5 3s a game.


he's not a chucker of the 3 ball.


and you don't need a 3 point shot to be a respectable slasher, MJ didn't have a 3 ball.

Scottie didn't have a 3 ball. Vincent Carter in his early years didn't have a 3 ball.

DWade doesn't have a 3 ball and he's the best slasher in the game.

[Sunk Cost]

He also took 217 more free throws, so that's the equivalent of about 100 FGA that are even more efficient than two point shots. I'm sure a Bulls poster could give a more accurate estimate, but I'll say about 40 of the 3PA are from beyond half court at the buzzer. He really shows no discretion at taking those...several have missed the basket entirely

[alucryts]

I agree and it sucks watching him play like this. I've been disappointed with his play post all star break of last season. Dude midrange game was deadly, but he'd rather just launch three's all game. Pisses me off. smh

I don't mean to repeat myself, but the last 25% of 10-11 regular season he was putting up epic numbers; he was insane after a temporary lull post all star game. That was the best stretch of his career up until turning his ankle in the playoffs and turning into a three point mega chucker.

[darth_federer]

Rose has never been a very efficient scorer in the NBA. Even last year his TS% was at the league average. And if you factor in the usage and the volume of shots he took he was 16/37.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _by=ts_pct

[CablexDeadpool]

09-10: 1373 FGA (including 3PA) for 1619 points (1.17 points per shot). 7.8 Assists per 48. 4.9 rebounds per 48. 76% on 338 FTs

10-11: 1579 shots (including 3PA) for 2026 points (1.28 points per shot). 9.9 Assists per 48. 5.2 rebounds per 48. 86% on 555 FTs

..how was he better or more efficient in 09?

His Assist to Turnover rate was the exact same both seasons, so don't bring up turnovers.

he was taking 3s, of course he would have more points per shot and I been said, he improved ft shooting, and he improved assists.

and i pointed out how he averaged more points.

i said he was better because he wasn't chucking up the 3. he was more of a midrange shooter than 3 point shooter, only thing he needed to improve on from 09 was getting to the line.

he now has a bad habit of every time the team was down he has to chuck the 3.

you see it in the regular season and you seen it in the playoffs and you seen it last night.

here are his numbers from 2009 - 2010 from 16 - 23, 3 fgm - 6.8 fga for 44 percent

compare that to 2010 - 2011 from 16 - 23, 1.7 fgm - 4.5 fga for 37 percent

he totally eliminated his midrange game last year for an inefficient 3ball.

so besides getting to the line more and increasing his assist per game and increasing his court vision, was he really that much better? I don't think so, I think he installed some really bad habits last year.

There's a problem when slashers start getting a 3 ball, because they start relying on it.

Overall I agree except on calling his three point shot inefficient. That shot is efficient in itself, but his mid range game went through the floor from abandoning it. 4-5 threes a night plus 8-10 FTA a night is ideal for Rose. Without the FTA his whole game collapses when it comes to efficient scoring. The only jump shot in basketball that is efficient is the three point shot......shooting 50% from any mid range area is considered among the best in the game yet it is inefficient.

No, that's not what I am saying.

I am saying is this, Rose is an inefficient scorer, because he rather shoot the 3, than get to the line. He rather shoot the 3 than slash, he rather shoot the 3 than shoot midrange.

Derrick Rose isn't a shooter, he's not a shooter, his game is slashing and in the paint correct?

So for him, taking 3s, is inefficient, because his most efficient game is from the rim to 18 feet.

Derrick Rose took 5 threes a game and only made 1.5. That is bad 3 point shooting.

For shooters, yes, taking the 3 is a good shot. Off the fastbreak the three is a very good shot. From kickouts, the 3 is a very good shot.

But when you are Derrick Rose, Lebron James, D Wade, very good rim players, the 3 is terrible.

[alucryts]

He also took 217 more free throws, so that's the equivalent of about 100 FGA that are even more efficient than two point shots. I'm sure a Bulls poster could give a more accurate estimate, but I'll say about 40 of the 3PA are from beyond half court at the buzzer. He really shows no discretion at taking those...several have missed the basket entirely

He took 32 half court buzzer beaters according to Synergy and made one. If you remove those 32, last year he shot 4.4 3PA per game for 36%. That is perfect for him.

[alucryts]

No, that's not what I am saying.

I am saying is this, Rose is an inefficient scorer, because he rather shoot the 3, than get to the line. He rather shoot the 3 than slash, he rather shoot the 3 than shoot midrange.

Derrick Rose isn't a shooter, he's not a shooter, his game is slashing and in the paint correct?

So for him, taking 3s, is inefficient, because his most efficient game is from the rim to 18 feet.

Derrick Rose took 5 threes a game and only made 1.5. That is bad 3 point shooting.

For shooters, yes, taking the 3 is a good shot. Off the fastbreak the three is a very good shot. From kickouts, the 3 is a very good shot.

But when you are Derrick Rose, Lebron James, D Wade, very good rim players, the 3 is terrible.

Oh ok I get your point now. I think 4-5 threes a game for Rose is good as long as he is getting to the line 8+ times a night. If all he is doing is shooting 4-5 threes a game and not even trying to get to the line, he is a poor scorer.

[Sebastian]

09-10: 1373 FGA (including 3PA) for 1619 points (1.17 points per shot). 7.8 Assists per 48. 4.9 rebounds per 48. 76% on 338 FTs

10-11: 1579 shots (including 3PA) for 2026 points (1.28 points per shot). 9.9 Assists per 48. 5.2 rebounds per 48. 86% on 555 FTs

..how was he better or more efficient in 09?

His Assist to Turnover rate was the exact same both seasons, so don't bring up turnovers.

he was taking 3s, of course he would have more points per shot and I been said, he improved ft shooting, and he improved assists.

and i pointed out how he averaged more points.

i said he was better because he wasn't chucking up the 3. he was more of a midrange shooter than 3 point shooter, only thing he needed to improve on from 09 was getting to the line.

he now has a bad habit of every time the team was down he has to chuck the 3.

you see it in the regular season and you seen it in the playoffs and you seen it last night.

here are his numbers from 2009 - 2010 from 16 - 23, 3 fgm - 6.8 fga for 44 percent

compare that to 2010 - 2011 from 16 - 23, 1.7 fgm - 4.5 fga for 37 percent

he totally eliminated his midrange game last year for an inefficient 3ball.

While I agree with you in principle about Rose's shot selection, the argument regarding his efficiency doesn't make much sense. 33% on threes (edit: or more accurately 36% if you discount the buzzer-beating heaves) is still better than 44% on mid-range twos.

It's way too early to indict him for not learning his lesson from last year about taking too many threes per game. Let's see where he's at at the end of January.

[CablexDeadpool]

[quote="Sunk Cost"]He also took 217 more free throws, so that's the equivalent of about 100 FGA that are even more efficient than two point shots. I'm sure a Bulls poster could give a more accurate estimate, but I'll say about 40 of the 3PA are from beyond half court at the buzzer. He really shows no discretion at taking those...several have missed the basket entirely[/quote]

Which is what I said, I said getting to the line is good.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

The one problem I've always had with TS% when it comes to explaining away 3-point shooting is that a guy shooting 10/30 from 3 is technically just as efficient as 10/20 from 2.

But there are negatives from 3's that you don't always get from 2's, such as long rebounds which lead to opponent fastbreaks, and a less reliable offensive player.

It's all about taking the right kinds of 3's. Even a midrange jumper that one normally shoots at around 40% can be better than a 3-point shot, so long as the midrange jumper is open and in the flow of the offense.

Rose should never have a possession where he dribbles around the 3-point line, doesn't pass, and then shoots a 3. That happened a few times last night, and that's something a guy like Baron Davis does. Its just not a good habit.

[peja drobnjak]

i'd wager long rebounds lead to offensive rebounds more often than opponent fast breaks

agreed that i hate those chauncey billups pullup threes at the top of the key though

[Sunk Cost]

[quote="Sunk Cost"]He also took 217 more free throws, so that's the equivalent of about 100 FGA that are even more efficient than two point shots. I'm sure a Bulls poster could give a more accurate estimate, but I'll say about 40 of the 3PA are from beyond half court at the buzzer. He really shows no discretion at taking those...several have missed the basket entirely

Which is what I said, I said getting to the line is good.[/quote]

Right, so he got to the line more last year, so I'm saying last year was more good. alucryts probably already said this in some capacity, but his FTA were also much higher after the break, so he should be even better this year for his totals, although we haven't seen it yet

[CablexDeadpool]

09-10: 1373 FGA (including 3PA) for 1619 points (1.17 points per shot). 7.8 Assists per 48. 4.9 rebounds per 48. 76% on 338 FTs

10-11: 1579 shots (including 3PA) for 2026 points (1.28 points per shot). 9.9 Assists per 48. 5.2 rebounds per 48. 86% on 555 FTs

..how was he better or more efficient in 09?

His Assist to Turnover rate was the exact same both seasons, so don't bring up turnovers.

he was taking 3s, of course he would have more points per shot and I been said, he improved ft shooting, and he improved assists.

and i pointed out how he averaged more points.

i said he was better because he wasn't chucking up the 3. he was more of a midrange shooter than 3 point shooter, only thing he needed to improve on from 09 was getting to the line.

he now has a bad habit of every time the team was down he has to chuck the 3.

you see it in the regular season and you seen it in the playoffs and you seen it last night.

here are his numbers from 2009 - 2010 from 16 - 23, 3 fgm - 6.8 fga for 44 percent

compare that to 2010 - 2011 from 16 - 23, 1.7 fgm - 4.5 fga for 37 percent

he totally eliminated his midrange game last year for an inefficient 3ball.

While I agree with you in principle about Rose's shot selection, the argument regarding his efficiency doesn't make much sense. 33% on threes is still better than 44% on mid-range twos.

It's way too early to indict him for not learning his lesson from last year about taking too many threes per game. Let's see where he's at at the end of January.

no it's not because he's not a good 3 point shooter.

it's like this, derrick rose made 1.5 threes a game last year correct on 5 attempts?

he takes 5 threes a game. he increased his fga by 2 from the 2009 - 2010 season.

so in order to take threes, he reduced his midrange game and took more threes.

derrick rose made 3 shots from midrange last season on 44 fg% that's 6 points on 6.8 attempts.

1.5 3s made is 4.50 points if my math is correct.

he was better off taking 2 and getting to the fta line.

[Godzilla039]

I agree and it sucks watching him play like this. I've been disappointed with his play post all star break of last season. Dude midrange game was deadly, but he'd rather just launch three's all game. Pisses me off. smh

I don't mean to repeat myself, but the last 25% of 10-11 regular season he was putting up epic numbers; he was insane after a temporary lull post all star game. That was the best stretch of his career up until turning his ankle in the playoffs and turning into a three point mega chucker.

No disrespect to you or your shot chart but I've watched every game of Rose's career (probably just like you) and I don't care what that thing shows. Call me a caveman or whatever for not welcoming those advanced metrics, but watching Rose play is becoming more and more puzzling with each passing game. Yeah, he might of been more efficient last year, but I liked his second year better. I know his FT's were down, but he didn't chuck three's and his midrange shot was deadly and he stayed with it. There was a point last season where he was averaging 7's three's a game! I hate watching him play like this and don't care if it did raise his efficiency. He needs to go back to the midrange game, attack the lane and STOP launching three's

[CablexDeadpool]

Right, so he got to the line more last year, so I'm saying last year was more good. alucryts probably already said this in some capacity, but his FTA were also much higher after the break, so he should be even better this year for his totals, although we haven't seen it yet

- sunk cost

I am not knocking him for getting to the line, I am knocking him because he taking 3s instead of getting to the line and his midrange game being eliminated for inefficient 3pt shooting.

[MCMLXXXIII]

Yup, the 3 point shot is the downfall of a lot of players.

[alucryts]

The one problem I've always had with TS% when it comes to explaining away 3-point shooting is that a guy shooting 10/30 from 3 is technically just as efficient as 10/20 from 2.

But there are negatives from 3's that you don't always get from 2's, such as long rebounds which lead to opponent fastbreaks, and a less reliable offensive player.

It's all about taking the right kinds of 3's. Even a midrange jumper that one normally shoots at around 40% can be better than a 3-point shot, so long as the midrange jumper is open and in the flow of the offense.

Rose should never have a possession where he dribbles around the 3-point line, doesn't pass, and then shoots a 3. That happened a few times last night, and that's something a guy like Baron Davis does. Its just not a good habit.

Rose last night had 2 transition 3's (went 1/2). The rest of the threes were off of passes and screen. Not a single three last night was taken without a pass outside of the Billups style transition 3's he took (I hate these).

Also, 10/30 from three is 30 points on 30 shots while 15 for 30 is 30 point on 30 shots. That is why they are equal. True, there are extraneous factors, but that gets entirely too complicated to take into consideration here. The three point shot is the only shot for a guard that really has a shot at not hurting efficiency. The goal is to hit at least 36% to 38% in order to be efficient overall as a scorer. 33% is the line that most often is the cutoff of whether or not someone should be shooting threes because at 50% ts% that will beat all other jump shots most of the time.

[peja drobnjak]

his ft rate went up a ton, wow

[alucryts]

No disrespect to you or your shot chart but I've watched every game of Rose's career (probably just like you) and I don't care what that thing shows. Call me a caveman or whatever for not welcoming those advanced metrics, but watching Rose play is becoming more and more puzzling with each passing game. Yeah, he might of been more efficient last year, but I liked his second year better. I know his FT's were down, but he didn't chuck three's and his midrange shot was deadly and he stayed with it. There was a point last season where he was averaging 7's three's a game! I hate watching him play like this and don't care if it did raise his efficiency. He needs to go back to the midrange game, attack the lane and STOP launching three's

These really aren't that advanced of stats. They come from someone watching the game tape and recording his scoring/possessions. During his great stretch last year he was averaging:

26.59 ppg
6.64 apg
3.27 rpg

8.59/18.77 for 45.76% fg%
1.86/5.68 on threes for 32.8%
59.22 TS%

7.55/8.36 FTA for 90.22%

He was absolutely elite during the last 22 games of the regular season killing teams. His three point shooting draws the defender further out of the paint in order to help him drive the lane. I still think 5.68 3's a game is far too much by about 1 a game, but this stretch was absolutely insane offensively. At no point in his career was he even close to this good previously and replacing his 3 point shooting with mid range shot will decrease his efficiency and hurt spacing on offense.

[CablexDeadpool]

The one problem I've always had with TS% when it comes to explaining away 3-point shooting is that a guy shooting 10/30 from 3 is technically just as efficient as 10/20 from 2.

But there are negatives from 3's that you don't always get from 2's, such as long rebounds which lead to opponent fastbreaks, and a less reliable offensive player.

It's all about taking the right kinds of 3's. Even a midrange jumper that one normally shoots at around 40% can be better than a 3-point shot, so long as the midrange jumper is open and in the flow of the offense.

Rose should never have a possession where he dribbles around the 3-point line, doesn't pass, and then shoots a 3. That happened a few times last night, and that's something a guy like Baron Davis does. Its just not a good habit.

Rose last night had 2 transition 3's (went 1/2). The rest of the threes were off of passes and screen. Not a single three last night was taken without a pass outside of the Billups style transition 3's he took (I hate these).

Also, 10/30 from three is 30 points on 30 shots while 15 for 30 is 30 point on 30 shots. That is why they are equal. True, there are extraneous factors, but that gets entirely too complicated to take into consideration here. The three point shot is the only shot for a guard that really has a shot at not hurting efficiency. The goal is to hit at least 36% to 38% in order to be efficient overall as a scorer. 33% is the line that most often is the cutoff of whether or not someone should be shooting threes because at 50% ts% that will beat all other jump shots most of the time.

shooting 3s is bad when u make 33 percent and you are a good midrange shooter, if you are a 45 percent midrange shooter and you take 5 to 6 midrange shoots a game. You are better off hitting the midrange shot.

Do the math, drose hit 3 midrange shots on average 2010 while taking 6.8 midrange shots, 6 points

mvp season he's hitting 1.7 midrange shots while taking 4.5, for 38 percent, that's, 3 points estimated

then 1.5 threes made while taking 5, that's 4.5 points

so 2010, on long range shooting he's 44 percent

mvp season, on long range shooting he's 33 percent, 3.2/9.5

that's not efficient if my math is correct.