Nets at Wiz Game Thread 12/26/11 7pm et.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I have been dealing with highly stressful real life stuff. You're the best, miller. I can disagree with your POV 100% but already know you're going places. Good places. This should be fun stuff.

I think the tone of my post is more me and the fact I feel stupid being hooked on this team. I also am delusional enough to wish I could do part of what EG does, because I am pretty do a real good job of it. I wish I could just get paid a LITTLE as a consultant to help Leonsis and Wizard fans out. It is fun, but I am serious about what I think I know.

PS--Pride comes before destruction, I am reminded of. I do not know all of the constraints and politics that go into who gets selected, and which coaches are hired; etc. I saw a big difference in how EG drafted under Abe, compared to how he's done under Ted.

My thoughts are just that some things seem like no-brainer decisions to me, like months before the draft. Draft night comes and the Wizards go a radically different, usually far worse way. That's all I'm talking about. I couldn't be an office guy or face of the franchise guy at all.

[DaRealHibachi]

After reading through the expert analysis's around the board these last days, I've concluded the following;

- Wall is overrated, cannot and will not improve his game, and is not a PG even after having the one of the best rookie PG campaigns in the last decade...

- Blatche is not responsible for the way he plays; Flip is... Dray can also decide what kind of player he wants to be whenever he wants, and defend it fiercely, too; face-up finesse big last year, post-player (with no improvement body-wise to show dedication)

- Flip is a babysitter, not a coach; he has to specifically tell his players that they can't do certain things on the court, and has to teach his players basic bball fundamentals; this because the NBA is the place they should learn these things, not in school...

I shall await more of your basketball know-how folks, since y'all seem to know things better than most; especially after 2 pre-season and 1 season game...

[closg00]

When Blatche is terrible try not playing him over 30 minutes. FLIP PLAYED BLATCHE 38:44 For years I have been saying Blatche gets too many minutes, no matter what; and Flip reflexively benches and punishes McGee. If Flip wants to really be a coach, try benching Blatche next game altogether!

When Rashard Lewis is not rebounding or scoring well try not wasting 25 minutes on him.

When bean poles like McGee and soft, weak, excuse-laden Blatche gets pushed out of the paint; try putting Kevin Seraphin in the game to be tough. Even five hard John Chaney-coached fouls ... whoops, I don't want Kevin to injure anybody. No. Make that have Kevin Seraphin come in and try to change the tempo by being physical. Take Blatche and McGee out and have Singleton, Booker, and Kevin and TELL THEM TO PUSH BACK AS HARD AS THEY CAN!

But no, Flip Saunders didn't play Seraphin at all when his team got mugged.

Also, if the Flip has no players that is on Ernie Grunfeld.

My point about coaching is we can talk about Blatche's effort or McGee weakness all day long but what we do not address is that there is no law preventing a coach from exhausting every player on the active roster on any given night. Short bench and a crap team? Nonsense in my opinion.

Play Singleton, Booker, and Seraphin or Turiaf the whole way and see if the game doesn't change. THAT is what Flip could do.

I am tired of hearing excuses why Flip is a good coach and everything is his players fault.

HERE IS THE GOOD NEWS/CLOUD'S SILVER LINING:

Blatche and Flip feuding is PERFECT. A mostly ineffective guy and his enabler at odds is good for the Wizards. Lose them both and this team improves automatically, IMO.

+1 on all of this^^ Kevin Serpahin did make some progress in Europe, I'm sure he wouldn't have let Mr. Kardashian punk him like he did Dray. A coach has choices, even on a bad team. KS for 3 minutes to slow-down Hump couldn't even be tried?? Come-on.

[pancakes3]

hey, i appreciate good coaching as much as the next guy but 2 things to keep in mind here.

1 - in-game management is an art, not a science. in hindsight, yes if lewis isn't playing effectively he shouldn't be getting 25 minutes. however it may also take 25 minutes to see if lewis is feeling it. if you start pulling players left and right the second theyr'e not doing things correctly, you'll go through the entire roster before the end of the 1st q.

2 - in estimating player talent, coaches have a better grasp on the players' levels than we do. sure we might have a handful of youtube videos, tweets, and game film to watch but those guys work with the players every single day, and are better basketball minds than most of us too. if they don't see enough "carl landry-ness" in booker to start over blatche, then it probably isn't there.

also, i want to stress to ccj since he didn't see the game - 'dray wasn't horrifically bad. yes he dogged it on a few plays, got torched by humphries, is still taking the most inefficient shot in all of basketball, and now is more or less openly feuding with his coach/team, but mcgee played worse. so when you say

play singleton, booker, and seraphin or turiaf the whole way and see if the game doesn't change. THAT is what Flip should do.

, he did. he yanked mcgee after the nets made up 15=18 pts of the lead we had for Turiaf and never looked back. if he has the vision to realize that mcgee is stinking things up, surely he notices blatche dragging butt up and down the court.

however he also knows that blatche is one of the precious few ways we can score, the best hope we have at a defensive rebound, and pathetically enough the best paint deterrent on the floor. pulling him and sending in the rookies and sophomores when we were in the middle of fighting to keep the lead would have been a white flag of massive proportions and in all likelihood ended in a shellacking of greater than just 6 pts.

[closg00]

shard shouldn't even be starting pancakes.

[pancakes3]

debatable. if he's hitting 3's, i'll take his mediocre defense and added shooting ahead of my acknowledged man-crush singleton.

to close out on games, i'd want wonton in there though.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

After reading through the expert analysis's around the board these last days, I've concluded the following;

- Wall is overrated, cannot and will not improve his game, and is not a PG even after having the one of the best rookie PG campaigns in the last decade...

- Blatche is not responsible for the way he plays; Flip is... Dray can also decide what kind of player he wants to be whenever he wants, and defend it fiercely, too; face-up finesse big last year, post-player (with no improvement body-wise to show dedication)

- Flip is a babysitter, not a coach; he has to specifically tell his players that they can't do certain things on the court, and has to teach his players basic bball fundamentals; this because the NBA is the place they should learn these things, not in school...

I shall await more of your basketball know-how folks, since y'all seem to know things better than most; especially after 2 pre-season and 1 season game...

I do think I have expert knowledge on this. I have no problem responding, DRH. (Sorry if this rant to follow gets preachy or repetitive)


--I never said Wall cannot improve his game. I think he can and certainly will. I am not one who says he isn't a PG. Perhaps other have said this. He's a way better passer than I thought he'd be as he entered the draft. I think Wall's biggest problem is he plays fast well but has no change of pace. Fast or bust with him. I also think he has a problem almost all young players have--he struggles in decision making at times. I think Wall has no help at PG because the Wizards organization has just thrown him out there this season. Legler said this. I kind of thought Roger Mason could help at PG, but I was wrong. As far as how good Wall's rookie season was, I've posted comparisons with Wall's rookie season and those of Magic, Kidd, Payton, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Westbrook, and Brandon Jennings. I have a pretty good idea where John Wall stands, DRH. Historically good is a stretch, but Wall is not precluded from being an all-time great. You could also argue Brandon Jennings had a better rookie season.

--Flip is a coach. He can simply bench players and put in others who can replicate the desired task with some level of consistency. He can objectify and classify and depersonalize things. In the military there is the mission and there is also the people who have to do the mission. If one person goes down, the mission still has to get done. If there is some exigency that requires immediate action a leader is not going to let his weakest link keep the mission from getting done.

A good leader is going to implement good training. I know that in the real world it isn't always possible. As a single parent who battles his own ups and downs, I still have to parent, work, pay bills, cook, clean, wash, get kids from point a to b, deal with custodial issues you wouldn't even believe, etc. If I spend too much time on Real GM if affects the rest of my life. If I have no life when my kids are gone I still can find better things than this UNLESS this is what I love to do with my FREE time. What does that have to do with training? How well trained are my kids? How on top of things in my life am I? If I were a real man I would admit some shortcomings.

Now If I were a coach and I always blamed my players for everything you could just call me Flip.

Flip needs to coach so NO PLAYER feels his minutes are etched in stone. If Flip played Blatche 15 minutes one game and played him 35 that might torque Andray, but I sure would be happy if the team were winning. That goes for every player on the team. Likewise, if Flip would be sensitive enough as a coach to realize a guy like Booker opening the season and playing less minutes than Singleton might not be right. Lewis and Blatche and McGee playing all those minutes and the team getting manhandled (didn't see the game but judging by -20 rebounds); the coach might have some appreciation for energy a guy like Seraphin can bring. Seraphin if nothing else strikes me as a baby bruiser. Kris Humphries IMO could shove Andray Blatche from one basket to the next and he could probably do so while dragging Javale with his free hand. But if he had to at least stare Seraphin in the face with Kevin looking angry, that would get his attention. Flip not playing Seraphin shows me something.

Flip apologists will still say a coach cannot play that many guys. Also, some of you who have coached HS or other levels might tell me why a coach cannot use a deep bench. Personally, I think at the beginning of the season for morale EVERYBODY should play some. I don't see Flip use wisdom at times.

To summarize: Flip should not have to argue with players. Just play guys that get it done. Use a deep bench and don't rule out any way to get the objective accomplished. It is a team game. Use all your team members because they each have disparate skills that can contribute to winning basketball.

Wall is young and improving, but his improvement would be better if the Wizards had better veteran PGs also on the roster. Wall's biggest unknown is whether he can change speeds and still make good decisions with the ball. I would argue how good of a rookie he was. Did not mention defense but did just let you know I am not one who says Wall is not a PG. He still can become an all time great but I have very serious doubts about that right now. Being with the Wizards will certainly slow him down because they have thrown him out there with nothing special around him, including at head coach IMO.

[DaRealHibachi]

Unable to quote for some reason... Anyway...

Come on CCJ, if I was specifically talking to you alone, I would have quoted you, like I do most of the time... This brings me back to your replies to me;

I know you never said he can't and won't improve (you did say he was overrated if I'm correct, doesn't matter though), and believe me when I see allot of faults with the dude (same faults as you do); but it like people forget how good he was last year, despite of not having a jumper, not being able to change speeds, always picking up his dribble, limited bball IQ as some say... I just hate the "what have you done for me lately" speeches that get thrown around these parts...

And while I agree on good training, it should start at home (school/college in this bball case); but I can't expect to work somewhere without atleast some basics of the job I'm applying for, especially not if I'm paid millions... My boss shouldn't have to instruct me how to create a computer network if I'm applying for a job as Network Technician for example... And if I did get the job for some reason, I would bust my ass to keep it, not half-ass it...

(btw, I'm going through pretty similar stuff as you are, probably not as bad though, but I'm blessed with an truly awesome girlfriend, I hope and pray you find your new SO soon my brother)

As for the Dray stuff, I think we can both agree that Flip is not the coach for this team and he plays Dray waaaaay too much etc. Dray needs to go, Flip also, but not until Ernie goes also, since he created this mess...

And I agree with your summary, he has allot to improve; I just feel he catches a too much flak over 3 freaking games... Oh well... Wiz-board logic I guess...

[WizarDynasty]

i will add another dimension to the conversation. Turiaf and Blatche looked great playing together. I see instant chemistry. I love the veteran presence that Turiaf provides and he actually shows leadership on the floor that this team sorely lacked. Turiaf is out there thinking both offensively and defensively and that most certainly will help this team grow.

I think turiaf has the presence to force Flip to upgrade the playbook tremendously. I saw alot of nice chemistry between blatche and mcgee showing alot of thinking going on the in teh court with McGee setting up blatche from the high post and vice versa. Wall is not a talented half court player and until he develops a decent off the dribble pull jump shot beyond the free throw line, his main priority should be setting up his big men for close range shots or pushing the ball with the intention of kicking it out to a shooter once he gets doubled in the paint, not hoisting up a wild shot after he has sprinted deep into the paint hoping for a foul or a lucky bounce off the rim.

Singleton's energy starts to rub off on everyone and we have him for years to come. Young still shows a low IQ in terms of setting up his team mates and creating offensive advantages for his team mates with sharp quick accurate passes. He just has no feel for how to exploit a defense other than going one on one. Playing one on one basketball drives the defensive moral of the team down because your team mates busted their butts to get a stop only to see you shoot a quick jumper that clangs off the rim and you don't even rebound your own missed shots. You can't be a shot jacker who is also a poor offensive rebounder. Cardinal Sin.

Our bigs set really soft picks and don't attempt to create and advantage for the guard. I think this has to do with coaching. When a big who is thin sets a pick, he takes alot more punishment to his body than a big who has alot of beef, so whenever mcgee or blatche set picks they risk greater injury because they don't have alot of lower body mass to absorb a guards blows to their lower body during contact. The only way to make guards appreciate the sacrifice of a pick is to run plays where the guard sets picks for his bigman so that both players share the role of helping each other. Until this happens, we will continue to see uninspired screens set by our bigman and this all falls on Saunders not understanding the sacrifice thin men make when setting picks versus beefy guys. There has to a be a mutual respect and that's why great point guards like nash, stockton, and kidd got down into the dirt and set picks and earned the respect of their bigmen. It made their bigmen want to go to war with them. Saunders doesn't understand this dynamic with the players.

Every team in the league doubles dre in the post yet our fans don't seem to appreciate what that means. He has respect on the block and the whole defense is designed to force dre to shoot a shot of the dribble out by the free throw line and flip is content with that. the league knows that is weakest part of dre's game yet saunders seems to think it is a strength. Dre's is not garnett, dre is much better at banging down low and does have athleticism to get off a high release point jumper like garnett. Garnett much higher release on jump shot but lacks power, dre no jumping but has much more power and driving ability than garnett. Saunder's needs to go if he can't run an offense similar to san antonio's because Blatche creates alot of the same problem duncan did. Duncan is way better but the theoretically similiarly duncan always got double in low post just as blatche does.
Blatche is a beast going one on with pretty much anyone below the free thow line and the entire defense is designed to push him out the free throw line yet we don't have an effective counter built into the offense.

Clearly the end result from a double team should be a cutter for an easy layup or an easy three on the opposite side of the double team. I too have huge criticism of how many defensive rebounds dre loses being swiped by guard and other bigmen he seriously needs to work on his hand strength.

[fishercob]

I have been dealing with highly stressful real life stuff. You're the best, miller. I can disagree with your POV 100% but already know you're going places. Good places. This should be fun stuff.

I think the tone of my post is more me and the fact I feel stupid being hooked on this team. I also am delusional enough to wish I could do part of what EG does, because I am pretty do a real good job of it. I wish I could just get paid a LITTLE as a consultant to help Leonsis and Wizard fans out. It is fun, but I am serious about what I think I know.

PS--Pride comes before destruction, I am reminded of. I do not know all of the constraints and politics that go into who gets selected, and which coaches are hired; etc. I saw a big difference in how EG drafted under Abe, compared to how he's done under Ted.

My thoughts are just that some things seem like no-brainer decisions to me, like months before the draft. Draft night comes and the Wizards go a radically different, usually far worse way. That's all I'm talking about. I couldn't be an office guy or face of the franchise guy at all.

CCJ, I love you man. Keep coming here and venting to help relieve some of that real-life stress. This place would be completely uninteresting if there was no disagreement, so I appreciate your strong opinions (by the way, someone needs to wake up barelyawake and tell him we're having a season); and I like having smart people to argue with.

For what it's worth, I don't think you're alone in your desire to see Blatche benched or traded. Not close. I really want Vesely to get healthy so we can turn over the PF minutes to him, Booker and whomever else among Singleton, Seraphin, Shard, etc. We're terrible with Blatche on the court -- what's the downside of benching him?? CHANGE THE CULTURE. Make an example of this punk.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Unable to quote for some reason... Anyway...

Come on CCJ, if I was specifically talking to you alone, I would have quoted you, like I do most of the time... This brings me back to your replies to me;

I know you never said he can't and won't improve (you did say he was overrated if I'm correct, doesn't matter though), and believe me when I see allot of faults with the dude (same faults as you do); but it like people forget how good he was last year, despite of not having a jumper, not being able to change speeds, always picking up his dribble, limited bball IQ as some say... I just hate the "what have you done for me lately" speeches that get thrown around these parts...

And while I agree on good training, it should start at home (school/college in this bball case); but I can't expect to work somewhere without atleast some basics of the job I'm applying for, especially not if I'm paid millions... My boss shouldn't have to instruct me how to create a computer network if I'm applying for a job as Network Technician for example... And if I did get the job for some reason, I would bust my ass to keep it, not half-ass it...

(btw, I'm going through pretty similar stuff as you are, probably not as bad though, but I'm blessed with an truly awesome girlfriend, I hope and pray you find your new SO soon my brother)

As for the Dray stuff, I think we can both agree that Flip is not the coach for this team and he plays Dray waaaaay too much etc. Dray needs to go, Flip also, but not until Ernie goes also, since he created this mess...

And I agree with your summary, he has allot to improve; I just feel he catches a too much flak over 3 freaking games... Oh well... Wiz-board logic I guess...

DRH, in 2012 it will mark 25 years since I didn't marry my awesome girlfriend. Biggest mistake of my life in terms of relationship choices. I am happy for you!

I apologize for thinking you might have been singling me out.

Yes, I said Wall is overrated. To me folks were putting him in the 98th percentile of PGs ever to play the game--at least hype wise. I didn't think he was THAT good at Kentucky, but I was wrong about Wall's physical skills. They are that good. Still, overrated for me is saying maybe he's only going to be in the 85-90th percentile of great PGs. I would rather have a baller like Stockton than a rocket that won't win much. Time will tell.

DRH where you have really hit the target is with what-have-you-done-for-me-lately folks. I feel that way about myself. I feel that I have turned on players with the best of them. I loved Andray when EJ wouldn't play him at all. As good as Jamison was, Blatche did a lot of things Antawn couldn't do defensively. He has size at PF that can really help at times. Then I was a huge Blatche backer. Also, I loved when Blatche just has gone beast mode the past two Aprils. Andray at times looks like a great player. His stats are consistent over the years, however. I just feel bad downing the guy and like I am saying what have you done for me lately?

DRH, I know you're saying others are also guilty of this with John Wall. Truly, Wall has been BRILLIANT more than a few times. It is like I and others never saw those games.

I apologize for that.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I have been dealing with highly stressful real life stuff. You're the best, miller. I can disagree with your POV 100% but already know you're going places. Good places. This should be fun stuff.

I think the tone of my post is more me and the fact I feel stupid being hooked on this team. I also am delusional enough to wish I could do part of what EG does, because I am pretty do a real good job of it. I wish I could just get paid a LITTLE as a consultant to help Leonsis and Wizard fans out. It is fun, but I am serious about what I think I know.

PS--Pride comes before destruction, I am reminded of. I do not know all of the constraints and politics that go into who gets selected, and which coaches are hired; etc. I saw a big difference in how EG drafted under Abe, compared to how he's done under Ted.

My thoughts are just that some things seem like no-brainer decisions to me, like months before the draft. Draft night comes and the Wizards go a radically different, usually far worse way. That's all I'm talking about. I couldn't be an office guy or face of the franchise guy at all.

CCJ, I love you man. Keep coming here and venting to help relieve some of that real-life stress. This place would be completely uninteresting if there was no disagreement, so I appreciate your strong opinions (by the way, someone needs to wake up barelyawake and tell him we're having a season); and I like having smart people to argue with.

For what it's worth, I don't think you're alone in your desire to see Blatche benched or traded. Not close. I really want Vesely to get healthy so we can turn over the PF minutes to him, Booker and whomever else among Singleton, Seraphin, Shard, etc. We're terrible with Blatche on the court -- what's the downside of benching him?? CHANGE THE CULTURE. Make an example of this punk.

Amen to the emboldened text!

Love you, too, fish.

Honestly, I want Flip's approach to stop at once. Andray can certainly be traded for a better player, but I think the biggest problems are Saunders' system and his keeping Blatche on the floor so long. Even Andray doesn't like the system now, but that could be with some serious blame shifting to deflect Blatche's own shortcomings factored in, too. I think the real solution is split up minutes to get effective play. Sometimes Blatche is by far the best option at center. I also wouldn't doubt that Turiaf with Blatche might work. So can Booker with McGee. I think all the guys have talent. Andray is the only option. The example should be that he is only one guy in uniform and he should not feel entitled. Coach Saunders needs to be able to parse minutes.

I want to see what Vesely has to offer, too! I see him passing and Singleton defending, both on the floor together. I don't see a thing wrong with running Wall, Young, Singleton, Vesely, McGee. Jan is a terrific passer.

[dobrojim]

OK I was gonna post a pix of JV's GF but can't figure it out...

click on the img button, inserted my filename...nada.
not sure how this is done. Does the pix have to be on
a public website somewhere and you use that url?

Post a link to the pic, is she hot?

What rock have you been living under?

Actually I'm not sure I'd say she's 'hot' in that
if you dressed her up like a Wiz girl, she'd have you
thinking carnal thoughts in the same way you would
for a 'real' wiz girl.

She's not UNattrative certainly. She's pretty and quite tall, but not
what I would consider voluptuous. Remember, she is a pro hoops
player herself IIRC.

She was polite to me. She was quiet during the game...never
stood up or was very fanatical.

My guess is she's a pretty nice lady.

[sfam]

Yes, I said Wall is overrated. To me folks were putting him in the 98th percentile of PGs ever to play the game--at least hype wise. I didn't think he was THAT good at Kentucky, but I was wrong about Wall's physical skills. They are that good. Still, overrated for me is saying maybe he's only going to be in the 85-90th percentile of great PGs. I would rather have a baller like Stockton than a rocket that won't win much. Time will tell.

I think we're being too hard on Wall. TOTALLY agree with you that his problem is his one speed - ultra fast - and that because of it he cannot adjust to what happens during the play. This means he can't manufacture points through what his team is doing, which is what Deron excels at. That said, think of Wall as going on Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey. He got his chops, and realizes that he's gifted. After doing his special thing continually, he's now failing, and probably will for some time to come. Eventually though, he will grow from this, and realize the part of his game that's missing, and will work on it (slowing things down, decision making, outside shots). At the end of Wall's journey, I still think the chances are quite good that Wall emerges as good or better a player than Deron. Its just not going to happen over night.

This too is a good thing, because it gives us a high draft pick next year, which hopefully gives us a second (or third) stud next to Wall (and Vesely).

[DCZards]

If one of Wall's primary shortcomings is that he plays too fast and hasn't learned how to change speeds--and I agree that those are among his shortcomings--then that's a good thing. Because learning how to play the game at different speeds and how to run a half-court offense are skills that can be gained with experience and coaching.

However, what Wall brings to the table in terms of raw athleticism, desire and, apparently, work ethic, can't be taught. I LOVE what the Zards have in Johnny Ballgame. I don't care if he has 10 bad games in a row. It's obvious to me that the kid has that IT factor.