Boozer and the PNR, video -- Double High Screen vid pg. 11

[imagge]

Actually I think this problem is easily fixable by taking advantage of the rules.

Defensive three-second violation, also known as illegal defense, is a rule violation in the National Basketball Association. It is assessed when a member of the defending team spends more than three seconds in the free throw lane (also known as the 16-foot lane, or colloquially as "in the paint") while not actively guarding an opponent. To be considered actively guarding, a defender must be within arm's length of an opponent and in a guarding position.[1] A three second count is suspended if:[2]

On the middle PnR, camp Noah in the corner behind the 3pt line, does not matter if he can hit this shot or not he has to be guarded because of the rule above his man will not to have enough time to rotate over. If his man camps in the lane, this is where Drose's BBall IQ would come into play, he holds the ball up top instead of using the pick, basically pointing out the illegal defense.

Running the PnR in this manner means setting it up early in the shot clock and it takes your best re bounder away from the basket. But it opens up space, we have good re bounders in Deng, Boozer and Rose for their positions though. Any time the Bulls go to the PnR camp Noah behind the 3pt lane make Deng or Rip's man rotate. Noah is also athletic enough to balance the floor, meaning he would be the man getting back on defense, usually a job meant for one of the guards (if he is camped at the top of 3pt line on the side PnR)

[jax98]

I don't mean under the rim, I mean outside the paint on the opposite side, ala the Asik play in the example Alcruyts provided. Of course Noah can't be under the rim, the threat of a 3 second call is too great. Sorry for poorly wording it.

Aha. Well that makes much more sense.

Yes, positioning Noah on the weak-side away from the basket would be optimal in pick and roll settings with Rose and Boozer. Now, if Noah could get that 15 footer to drop frequently, it'd litteraly open up the whole paint for Carlos.

I really think the Bulls need Noah in two places: the far opposite side setting a "diversion" down screen on Rip's guy or just outside the paint on the opposite wing. If the play has Noah at the top of the key, it's bound to fail.

Agreed. Having Hamilton in motion while the pick and roll is being executed is huge for our offensive possibilities. One guy I feel who can also take advantage of this offense is Luol Deng. He's a good enough shooter to knock down shots he gets off a collapsed defense, and he's a good enough driver to take it in strong if the defense tries to react to Hamilton, and thus spreads out.

I'll also start the new thread on playing Gibson more with Boozer.

Will Boozer's defender follow him in there or will Noah's leave him to defend Carlos? From the video examples, it appears Boozer's defender is doubling Derrick with Noah's (or Omer's) cheating to cover Carlos.

That depends on Carlos slipping the defenders or not. If he does, then right on. But it's not something that happens all that often. Usually defenders won't allow that unless they have a strong defensive big behind them for security. And this is where Noah needs to be able to punish teams for rotating onto Carlos. So far, he hasn't done that, but that may come in time.

When that happens you have a two on one. I think the problem is not so much personnel or scheme, but execution. The great thing is Noah and Boozer are good passing big men and they still have room to grow together. They really haven't played much together and, due to health issues and the lockout, haven't ever had a full training camp together. Practice time has been limited. This may take time, but I still see real potential for those two playing together.

I somewhat agree. I do think there are established limitations due to Noah's lack of range and overall offensive output. But at the same time, I do think both are capable of playing off each other much better than we've seen.

[alucryts]

Actually I think this problem is easily fixable by taking advantage of the rules.

Defensive three-second violation, also known as illegal defense, is a rule violation in the National Basketball Association. It is assessed when a member of the defending team spends more than three seconds in the free throw lane (also known as the 16-foot lane, or colloquially as "in the paint") while not actively guarding an opponent. To be considered actively guarding, a defender must be within arm's length of an opponent and in a guarding position.[1] A three second count is suspended if:[2]

On the middle PnR, camp Noah in the corner behind the 3pt line, does not matter if he can hit this shot or not he has to be guarded because of the rule above his man will not to have enough time to rotate over. If his man camps in the lane, this is where Drose's BBall IQ would come into play, he holds the ball up top instead of using the pick, basically pointing out the illegal defense.

Running the PnR in this manner means setting it up early in the shot clock and it takes your best re bounder away from the basket. But it opens up space, we have good re bounders in Deng, Boozer and Rose for their positions though. Any time the Bulls go to the PnR camp Noah behind the 3pt lane make Deng or Rip's man rotate. Noah is also athletic enough to balance the floor, meaning he would be the man getting back on defense, usually a job meant for one of the guards (if he is camped at the top of 3pt line on the side PnR)

The arm's length defense only applies to the defender in the paint.

[JasonFTW]

i hope Thibs figure something out to get Boozer going offensively and the same for the rest of the team

[Pnjguy]

A "Double High" screen and roll can alleviate our Noah and Boozer problems.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0bIt6FmkZY[/youtube]

In this video, watch the Mavs use it, the Heat double, and the Mavs counter-attack it.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc_eBuYTfVQ[/youtube]

The Double High allows Noah's defender to get out of the lane and its basically a race to the basket with Noah trailing for an offensive rebound.

[Pnjguy]

You can also run floppy simultaneously with the double high though with no pickers.

[AAU Teammate]

OP -- too good to be legal. Bravo on this thread.

What saddens me is all the talk about strategy in the world could be for naught if the Heat are just going to keep jumping over us (VC over Weis style) in playoff games.

I will take heart though with another simple notion ... If Korver and Rose simply would've shot like their career #s dictate, we would've won at least two of those games that were losses in the Heat playoff series.

As truehoop points out this week, the way to quell the Heat athleticism is just make your jumpers and get back.

[alucryts]

A "Double High" screen and roll can alleviate our Noah and Boozer problems.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0bIt6FmkZY[/youtube]

In this video, watch the Mavs use it, the Heat double, and the Mavs counter-attack it.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc_eBuYTfVQ[/youtube]

The Double High allows Noah's defender to get out of the lane and its basically a race to the basket with Noah trailing for an offensive rebound.

That is a good play to run. We actually did something like it in the first video I posted.

[imagge]

Actually I think this problem is easily fixable by taking advantage of the rules.

Defensive three-second violation, also known as illegal defense, is a rule violation in the National Basketball Association. It is assessed when a member of the defending team spends more than three seconds in the free throw lane (also known as the 16-foot lane, or colloquially as "in the paint") while not actively guarding an opponent. To be considered actively guarding, a defender must be within arm's length of an opponent and in a guarding position.[1] A three second count is suspended if:[2]

On the middle PnR, camp Noah in the corner behind the 3pt line, does not matter if he can hit this shot or not he has to be guarded because of the rule above his man will not to have enough time to rotate over. If his man camps in the lane, this is where Drose's BBall IQ would come into play, he holds the ball up top instead of using the pick, basically pointing out the illegal defense.

Running the PnR in this manner means setting it up early in the shot clock and it takes your best re bounder away from the basket. But it opens up space, we have good re bounders in Deng, Boozer and Rose for their positions though. Any time the Bulls go to the PnR camp Noah behind the 3pt lane make Deng or Rip's man rotate. Noah is also athletic enough to balance the floor, meaning he would be the man getting back on defense, usually a job meant for one of the guards (if he is camped at the top of 3pt line on the side PnR)

The arm's length defense only applies to the defender in the paint.

Defensive three-second violation, also known as illegal defense, is a rule violation in the National Basketball Association. It is assessed when a member of the defending team spends more than three seconds in the free throw lane (also known as the 16-foot lane, or colloquially as "in the paint") while not actively guarding an opponent. To be considered actively guarding, a defender must be within arm's length of an opponent and in a guarding position.[1] A three second count is suspended if:[2]

As I point out again Noah's man could not be in the paint with out actively guarding someone. If noah is set up free throw line extended his man can be in the paint and guard Noah. Noah at the 3pt line pulls his man out of the paint creating space for the PnR.

[Pnjguy]

That is a good play to run. We actually did something like it in the first video I posted.

Yup, i don't know if Noah knew what he was doing or not because i don't see the Bulls running it at all.

[panthermark]

I only read the first two pages......great thread.

Bottom line...Noah needs to become more of an offensive threat. Either his jumper or his post up game needs to become money.

[imagge]

A "Double High" screen and roll can alleviate our Noah and Boozer problems.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0bIt6FmkZY[/youtube]

In this video, watch the Mavs use it, the Heat double, and the Mavs counter-attack it.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc_eBuYTfVQ[/youtube]

The Double High allows Noah's defender to get out of the lane and its basically a race to the basket with Noah trailing for an offensive rebound.

That is a good play to run. We actually did something like it in the first video I posted.

Weather he camps out at the 3pt line or sets the high screen outside of the 3pt line like chandler did it creates space.

[alucryts]

That is a good play to run. We actually did something like it in the first video I posted.

Yup, i don't know if Noah knew what he was doing or not because i don't see the Bulls running it at all.

We have run it a few times for Rose, but the screeners didn't do a very good job and Rose had to bail on the play early.

[treis]

I think there's a lot of issues here. The most glaring is that there is no action by the other 3 guys on the PnR. It seems like there is no counter or secondary move in the plan.

The second issue, which is related to the first, is that there is little creativity in the set. It seems like every PnR ends up with Boozer getting the ball on the wing. For example, look at Exhibit B in the OP. Kobe's sitting in the lane, which should mean a three ball for his guy. Basically we do exactly what the Lakers want us to do. Rose is doubled and he gives the ball to Boozer. That's a relatively contested J for Boozer, without a whole lot of other options. In that play, the best course of action is for Rose to dribble outside around Gasol, pass it to Deng at the top, who swings it Rip in the corner. Asik sets a pick on Kobe, which should give Rip a high percentage look.

You can see it in exhibit E as well. The defense is cheating, and Noah is in the middle open enough for a dunk.

That's part of the reason why the Utah PnR always works so well. Their PnR was like a jab setting up a cross. Our PnR is like a wild hook. If it connects great, but good teams see it coming and can dodge it.

You also can't discount that Deron is a better PnR player. He's a better passer, and a much more dangerous threat on the 3 ball.

[alucryts]

Here is a video of a double high screen.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao6LvoWfNNQ[/youtube]

If Rose wanted he could have given the roll man in this play some excellent deep post position. However, the 3 point pop in this play was WIDE open to Deng and couldn't be ignored.

[Pnjguy]

Here is a video of a double high screen.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao6LvoWfNNQ[/youtube]

If Rose wanted he could have given the roll man in this play some excellent deep post position. However, the 3 point pop in this play was WIDE open to Deng and couldn't be ignored.

He also could have taken the big man to the hole as Gibson sealed off his defender. A lot of options with the double high.

[alucryts]

Here is a video of a double high screen.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao6LvoWfNNQ[/youtube]

If Rose wanted he could have given the roll man in this play some excellent deep post position. However, the 3 point pop in this play was WIDE open to Deng and couldn't be ignored.

He also could have taken the big man to the hole as Gibson sealed off his defender. A lot of options with the double high.

There really are a lot. Literally everyone involved in that play had options.

[kyrv]

Just to kind of get a baseline from people, and we haven't talked about this much in this thread, but it's hit up often other places, what is the numbers difference between Deron/Rose as the PG of the PnR?

I.e. if Rose is in Utah in 2010, what is Carlos Boozer's stats. What they were with Deron is 19.5 PPG, .599 TS%.

That's one of Booze's higher efficiency marks. I tend to think Rose gets a little too much scapegoating from the Boozer fans here, and while Rose is obviously no Deron, the difference would not be *that* great. See Boozer's production his first month here when Noah was out last year as evidence.

I think in Utah, Booze still puts up 19 PPG, and maybe .580 TS% or something like that with Rose.

Ceiling here with the Bulls being a bit less than that, because of 2 years older, and non-PG personnel. Maybe 18.5 PPG and .570 TS% - if he's healthy, and we get this mess cleaned up. Right now were far from there.

I think this thread demonstrates that Rose isn't really the problem, so while he can still 'get better' I think most of my comments on Rose's PnR abilities were off base.

[kyrv]

First of all, BIG thanks to Alucryts. Another great compilation of data.

Second, a small thanks to Resiren for those still pictures of Boozer in Utah. You'd get a bigger thanks if you weren't following up that performance from Alucryts.

Thirdly, as Kyrv, Boogy, and others have mentioned, this thread brought us good and bad news. Good news b/c it helps confirm what many have suspected and points out a specific reason for our struggles. The awful news is that it seems like we have little ability to correct that problem. There is no center on this team that Boozer can play with that would give him more space. Something I advocated last year was to play Boozer w/ Kurt Thomas and Noah w/ Gibson, w/ Asik filling up the rest of the minutes. But obviously, we can't do that.

It seems to me that barring a trade, the only way we can get this to work is to make it a point to have Boozer and Rose pass it to Noah and have him take the open jumper (which he gets every single damn play). This would mean that Noah would actually, you know, have to look at the hoop when he gets the ball and then shoot the ball toward the cylinder. And hopefully he would consistently make them enough to not only continue gain confidence in his shot but also make his man respect his shot.

I hope there's another way of solving this b/c right now I'm about as confident in Noah's shot as he is.

I agree with your assessment. There are 4 solutions:

1) Exactly what you said. Noah needs to hit that mid range shot and kill teams with it.
2) Boozer needs to become a pick and pop master. He has done this some games and we rock on offense when he does it.
3) We introduce more misdirection with Noah and Rip on the opposite side of a Rose/Boozer PNR. We need to distract Noah's defender long enough to give Boozer an extra step.
4) Find ways to initiate the pick and roll at free throw line depths instead of 3 point line depths. This will not give Boozer the extra step afforded in misdirection as much as it will give Noah's defender one less step to rotate.

Any of these would solve the Noah and Boozer chemistry.

Yep I wouldn't throw in the towel yet, but I am resigned to the fact that it might not work.

Some people wanted to start Kurt in the playoffs last season which sounded crazy but my attitude was, it's not saying Noah/Boozer won't work, it's doing what works better now, screw everything else. Especially with both players not 100%.

Back to your steps, they require improvements from players or changes from Thibs. Again it's not a lost cause, but, I'm not sure if Thibs will change things up. Granted, one would think they are doing analyzing like you have done here, and even more so, Thibs is a film nut.

[lukey90]

Here is a video of a double high screen.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao6LvoWfNNQ[/youtube]

If Rose wanted he could have given the roll man in this play some excellent deep post position. However, the 3 point pop in this play was WIDE open to Deng and couldn't be ignored.

Can we do this with Noah in lineup(Noah waits in corner or elsewhere) and with Boozer and Deng on screen?