Complete Rose/Williams to Boozer Pick and Roll Tutorial

[alucryts]

So DanTown8587 was gracious enough to provide me with access to video of the entire NBA for the last 3 years, and here is some video from Boozer with Utah. I learned so damn much about the PNR in these videos and in writing this post. I can see a lot of what all or us discussed in the last thread is partly wrong and mostly incomplete.

There are a few VERY key things that stood out to me. The first is where the pick is happening. In almost all of these videos of Utah, the pick is being set at free throw line depth; this KILLS the defense. Boozer in these videos accepts the pass in a spot where his quickness and agility negates rotations. Second, Boozer isn't coming to Deron to set a pick at the three point line hoping for a roll; Deron is bringing his man to Boozer to pick him off when he starts from outside the three point line. This allows Boozer to see where his man is going and adjust on the fly without worrying about setting the pick; neither Boozer's defender or help has any chance to stop him on the roll. In almost every video I have posted on Boozer, he is setting the pick for Rose out at the three point line. The most significant upgrade Rose and Boozer can make if the play is for Boozer to get the ball on a roll is setting the pick off the ball at free throw line depth and letting Rose run his man into the picks from the three point line; you can't negate a screen when you have no clue a screen is being set. To make a football analogy, Hester runs would be tacklers into blocks at a GOAT level on kick returns. There is a problem with BBIQ I see with Rose in this that I will get to after I show examples. Here are all the most common pick and roll scenarios:

First off, the key part to every single pick and roll where the roll man has a chance to score is a double team on the ball handler. This double team must exist for the roll man to truly get a wide open shot. A lot of times, Rose gets the double by breathing and touching the ball while Williams gets it through movement in critical areas of the floor.

Scenario 1) When you bring the pick out to the three point line, you can bait the double team on the ball handler and leave the roll man wide open for a pop without fail. Scenarios 1 and 2 are the kindergarten version of the pick and roll being super easy to set up. Here is an example of scenario 1 performed on the Bulls to perfection:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVtDUjwYg9g&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Scenario 2) When you bring the pick to the ball handler at the three point line, you could roll instead of pop (opposite of scenario 1). This is the most difficult pick and roll to execute to get the roll man a shot opportunity at the rim for a layup. This play is designed to give the ball handler a scoring opportunity; we do these for Rose to attack mostly on the Bulls. This play is not designed for the roll man to score because he has to travel the length of a three point shot to score giving the help defense all day to respond. Consequently, this is the one we run the most. In order for this to work for the roll man to score, there must be spacing like a lot of us talked about before in the last thread. Here is an example of a successful attempt with spacing and an unsuccessful attempt without spacing from the Bulls:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixm6r6Jugbc&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEiSBzGySvo&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Scenario 3) This scenario is when you bring the pick to the free throw line depth and let the ball handler run his man into the pick from the three point line. This is successful because the defender cannot avoid the pick. This scenario still needs spacing, but the look the roll man gets is improved from scenario 2. I have one example from Chicago where the end result was not successful, but it worked very well followed by a Utah example of this. This is the medium difficulty pick and roll play to set up in my opinion; it requires very high ball handling skill and quick decisions from the point guard. Either way, this is the pick and roll you will see most used by advanced pick and roll teams.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPh5R_SZiPQ&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNJ4SvCYTZ0[/youtube]

Scenario 4) When you bring the ball handler to the pick when BOTH start at free throw line depth. This will MURDER defenses as it frees both ball handler and roll man This pick and roll is completely unstoppable.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evPE_VG1Dxg[/youtube]

Scenario 5) Lastly, you can bring the pick to the ball handler when BOTH start at free throw line depth. This play requires some trickeration in order to surprise the defense, and can destroy just as much as scenario 4. In order to take advantage of his uncanny ability to draw double teams, Rose could use his post up threat inside the three point line to run highly successful pick and rolls for Boozer. Both scenarios 4 and 5 are the most difficult to set up, but Deron Williams on Utah was a MASTER of setting them up. scenarios 4 and 5 are the Olympics version of the pick and roll.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylJab_sNeNI[/youtube]

In all of the videos I watch on the Bulls, Boozer gets MUCH better looks at the rim when the ball is brought to the pick as opposed to the pick to the ball. If you are going to bring the pick to the ball hoping for a roll, both the pick and roll partners must start inside the three point line for the best looks.

Now I get to where Rose and Thibs need work. When Rose calls for scenario 2 with Boozer, he is technically calling for either a pick and pop or a scoring opportunity for himself. The problem is, no team cares if Boozer shoots jump shots and will mega blitz Rose over and over. Instead of continuing to call this broken PNR where the only option is a wide open pop, rose needs to set Boozer close to the basket for picks in order to make both of them more dangerous. The closer the pick and roll is to the basket, the easier the roll gets. The closer to the three point line the pick and roll is, the easier the pop gets. We don't run pick and rolls very often for Boozer to even be successful with; we are ham stringing him and forcing him into a pick and pop game by bringing the pick to the outside. The Bulls team is making spacing a problem because only scenario 2 relies on spacing from the center position in the success or failure of the pick and roll. Boozer is fine out there, we need Thibs and Rose to set picks closer to the basket for our pick and roll to work for Boozer scoring.

Finally, a timid rose running scenarios 1 and 2 is not going to work ever if he wants anything other than a pop jump shot. He can only be a passive passer like he wants to be if the pick and roll is run at free throw line depth where the roll man becomes as dangerous as Rose can be. Trying to get a roll on scenario 2 is kind of stupid to be honest. It's almost as bad as calling for a clear out isolation looking to pass without attacking first.

[alucryts]

Sorry for the ninja format edits. This took forever to type, and I was getting nervous about spazzing out and closing the window to lose the work on accident or something crazy.

Also, there are some concerns about me locking the old thread. I originally wanted to make the OP here a reply in that thread, but it changed the fundamental argument so much that I felt a thread restart was a better option since I was the OP of both threads and having two threads open on the same subject would make me a hypocrite. If I lock other people's duplicate threads, I feel I should do the same for my own. Here is the link to the last thread: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1148231

[jl342323]

thank you to both dantown for providing the footage and alucryts for writing all this up. it was a great read



can you send this to bulls front office?

this is pretty high quality right here. this is what realgm is all about

i subscribed to your youtube channel: first

[Ben]

this is pretty high quality right here. this is what realgm is all about

Sigged.

[alucryts]

thank you to both dantown for providing the footage and alucryts for writing all this up. it was a great read



can you send this to bulls front office?

this is pretty high quality right here. this is what realgm is all about

i subscribed to your youtube channel: first

Haha, thanks for the kind words. This is all stuff that I would be shocked if Thibs didn't see the same things. If he didn't see these things, I be surprised. Thibs has probably forgotten more on pick and rolls last week than is information in this thread to be honest. One thing we have to consider is if Thibs even wants to run the pick and roll like Utah.

[jl342323]

this is pretty high quality right here. this is what realgm is all about

Sigged.

if your gonna sig that a lil context would help. give alucryts credit too

[bigfan26]

This is a beautiful breakdown. Thank you Alucryts.

Seems to be a combination of Rose running the p'n'r , boozer being out of his comfort scoring zone, and thib's scheme running the pick and roll at the 3 point line.

[alucryts]

This is a beautiful breakdown. Thank you Alucryts.

Seems to be a combination of Rose running the p'n'r , boozer being out of his comfort scoring zone, and thib's scheme running the pick and roll at the 3 point line.

This seems to be the case. I hope Rose and Boozer make running pick and rolls more of a priority in the offense by improving the scheme.

[SpongeWorthy]

Good stuff. Our PNR game is sloppy and doesn't pressure the defense the way it should. With the way its run a lot of times I think we are just letting the defense off easy by bringing extra defenders to Rose. Anyone have any solid numbers on how often we call isolation for Rose relative to the rest of the league?

[alucryts]

this is pretty high quality right here. this is what realgm is all about

Sigged.

if your gonna sig that a lil context would help. give alucryts credit too

Naw I don't need credit. I think he was going more for the idea you were getting across than anything.

[Payt10]

Very nice work man! I hope Thibs takes a look at these and realizes that we need to put Carlos in better positions to score. The PnR is the best play in basketball and that's where Boozer is most effective when he just has to roll to the basket with a quick drop step and score.

[Ben]

this is pretty high quality right here. this is what realgm is all about

Sigged.

if your gonna sig that a lil context would help. give alucryts credit too

Eh, can't do it without it looking awkward.

It's OK. alucryts knows I think he's the shiznit.

[Ajosu]

Excellent point about the difference between bringing the "ball to the pick" and "pick to the ball." Im surprised that hasn't been noticed before now, or that it's taken this long to bring attention to it. To me, it's easier to surprise the defense when you bring the ball to the pick.

Add to that the difference between setting the pick at the free throw line and 3pt line, and you just nailed two easy adjustments that can make a huge difference. It's really simple if you think about it. Setting the pick out at the 3pt line gives the defense more time and space to set up for a charge outside the restricted area. As you said, it's fine if you want a pick and pop or a score for Rose, but not good for the pick and roll. Nice work.

[RichardsRival3]

I remember talking about this stuff last night in the game thread.

I don't read the board for 1 day an there are 2 threads and copious amounts of information to read.

I want to write an informed response, but it might take me days to sift through all the good info.


Great job by the way .

You should start your own youtube channel like bballbreakown

[DanTown8587]

The other thing is Utah was much quicker at running the P&R than Chicago is. I think the Bulls need to run more P&R like the one in scene 4-1 or scene 5.

And I agree that more "bring ball to pick" is needed. The problem I see with the Bulls P&R is that it's some grand thing that everyone can see coming.

EDIT And I think Derrick needs to get a better feel for reacting instead of deciding. the very first video, if he makes one hard dribble to his left, he's going straight to the rim with Boozer next to him and one defender coming at him. It's something I hope he sees in video and tries to attack more, when a big like Gasol is that useless defensively (he's 10 feet from his man, 25 feet from the basket and parallel to the rim), you have to attack that hard. It's the one P&R attribute I feel Derrick could be really good at and has the skills for. His passing is good, he just needs to not pre-determine so much what to do.

[PMONSTER]

We have to start running scenario 5 because that was absolutely deadly

This is a beautiful breakdown. Thank you Alucryts.

Seems to be a combination of Rose running the p'n'r , boozer being out of his comfort scoring zone, and thib's scheme running the pick and roll at the 3 point line.

You know what....... Thibs is a defensive coach. Maybe he needs to bring in a offensive coach.

D'Antoni and Thibs working together would be devastating

[EastBayFJ]

Gem of a thread and completely relevant as to whether the Bulls make progress or not.

Rose has utter confidence in himself and his own offense . This needs to translate into his offense as to how he creates for others - and it's not quite there yet.

But to bring it in and run his man into the pick and get Carlos ( and Joakim ) rolling is a basic starting point.

Derrick does seem to get a helluva lot of pressure from outside the 3 point line as to what we saw against the Pacers and Heat in the playoffs last year and even against the Lakers on Christmas night. And in the big games of consequence this is going to be an issue.

Which is why the ability to get a true 2nd creator on this team ( or a guy who can get his own offense ) should be a big priority that not only will pay dividends to Derrick's individual game - but the entire offense ( including our bigs in the pick and roll game )

[alucryts]

The other thing is Utah was much quicker at running the P&R than Chicago is. I think the Bulls need to run more P&R like the one in scene 4-1 or scene 5.

And I agree that more "bring ball to pick" is needed. The problem I see with the Bulls P&R is that it's some grand thing that everyone can see coming.

EDIT And I think Derrick needs to get a better feel for reacting instead of deciding. the very first video, if he makes one hard dribble to his left, he's going straight to the rim with Boozer next to him and one defender coming at him. It's something I hope he sees in video and tries to attack more, when a big like Gasol is that useless defensively (he's 10 feet from his man, 25 feet from the basket and parallel to the rim), you have to attack that hard. It's the one P&R attribute I feel Derrick could be really good at and has the skills for. His passing is good, he just needs to not pre-determine so much what to do.

I agree. When running the pick and roll, I noticed more also. When you bring the ball to the pick, it forces the on ball defender to continue defending the ball until the pick is met. When the hedge comes, both defenders will be on the ball handler for a short time. Dwill was a master of attacking until the INSTANT the double team appeared on him where he would slip it to Boozer.

For Rose it is as simple as attack the rim with your head up off a pick and roll. the instant you grab that double slip it to Boozer. If the double doesn't happen, demolish the defense yourself.

[alucryts]

We have to start running scenario 5 because that was absolutely deadly

This is a beautiful breakdown. Thank you Alucryts.

Seems to be a combination of Rose running the p'n'r , boozer being out of his comfort scoring zone, and thib's scheme running the pick and roll at the 3 point line.

You know what....... Thibs is a defensive coach. Maybe he needs to bring in a offensive coach.

D'Antoni and Thibs working together would be devastating

Thibs has a good offense in there right now, it just has minor details that, if optimized, would make this offense deadly.

[alucryts]

Gem of a thread and completely relevant as to whether the Bulls make progress or not.

Rose has utter confidence in himself and his own offense . This needs to translate into his offense as to how he creates for others - and it's not quite there yet.

But to bring it in and run his man into the pick and get Carlos ( and Joakim ) rolling is a basic starting point.

Derrick does seem to get a helluva lot of pressure from outside the 3 point line as to what we saw against the Pacers and Heat in the playoffs last year and even against the Lakers on Christmas night. And in the big games of consequence this is going to be an issue.

Which is why the ability to get a true 2nd creator on this team ( or a guy who can get his own offense ) should be a big priority that not only will pay dividends to Derrick's individual game - but the entire offense ( including our bigs in the pick and roll game )

I don't think a second ball handler will work or even be necessary in this offense. The key I see on every point guard pass that isn't a drive and kick is drawing a double team. Derrick draws double teams when he steps off of the bus . All he has to do is develop chemistry with what he has to optimize what happens when he is doubled.