Official Raptors 2012 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3

[A roc 23]

You tried to derail the POINT (of Barnes not being top 3) by bringing up Miller when in reality Barnes IS supposed to be the unianimous go-to-option YET he still had terrible numbers with NO injury, NO other top 5 pick (returning as a sophmore at that) in the line up and arguebly not even really another true #2 option.

How does Barnes have terrible numbers? He's avergaging:

17 points 5 rebounds on 48% shooting and a blistering 49% from three taking 2.5 a game.

All this while only playing 26 minutes on a top 5-6 team. He also averages 5 free throw attempts in only 26 minutes.
Those are damn good numbers. For all the hype on a guy like Lamb, Barnes scores and assists more per minute than Lamb. Barnes also gets to the line at a MUCH higher rate than Lamb.

I don't know about you guys, but to me the Raptors biggest need is a small forward who can shoot and draw fouls. My main concern with Barnes is that his defense isn't where it was last year and we'll need a good pass first point guard to maximize Barnes' talent. Everything else is there: he's strong, has good defense fundamentals, one of the best shooters available, draws fouls, high character, young with potential, etc... I really like the big guys in this draft and I think MKG provides a lot of what the Raptors need as well, but outside the top 2 I'm going with Barnes at this point.

[5DOM]

I don't know why people think it's supposed to be impressive that Barnes is averaging those #s playing for a top 5-6. If you look at the stats, he's basically a catch-and-shoot scorer who has more to gain by playing for a stacked team. What's worse is that he's not even a good passer and his defense has never been that great either.

By the way, Lamb actually assists more per minute than Barnes. He also blocks more and steals more. I don't think per36 stats are very good indicators either considering Lamb plays significantly more minutes than Barnes.

[A roc 23]

I don't know why people think it's supposed to be impressive that Barnes is averaging those #s playing for a top 5-6. If you look at the stats, he's basically a catch-and-shoot scorer who has more to gain by playing for a stacked team. What's worse is that he's not even a good passer and his defense has never been that great either.

I think being on a good team is a definite plus. You want to draft a player that comes from a winning environment, that has experience taking big shots in big games. Barnes hit some huge shots last year that players on bad teams would not have had the chance to take playing on a bad team. It's not the most important factor but it's something scouts consider so I don't know why we would ignore it.

One thing I think people overlook is Barnes' free throw numbers. He averages over 7 free throws every 37 minutes, compared to Lamb's 4 free throws. Barnes gets to the line at a higher rate than guys like Lamb and MKG. If you're getting to the line 5 times in 26 minutes you are obviously doing something more than just spotting up for a jumper all game.

[5DOM]

That's good because Lamb actually played a huge role in UCONN's championship winning campaign while Barnes played very poorly for majority of UNC's elimination game. I thought he would improve, but he sucked yet against Kentucky this month.

But I do like Barnes' FTA #'s. He could improve his TO rate though

[A roc 23]

By the way, Lamb actually assists more per minute than Barnes. He also blocks more and steals more. I don't think per36 stats are very good indicators either considering Lamb plays significantly more minutes than Barnes.

Lamb averages 1.6 in 37 minutes. Barnes 1.2 in 26 minutes. In 37 minutes Barnes' numers would equal 1.7 assists. Not much difference but still higher than Lamb. Probably not worth mentioning.

I'd argue that Lamb plays more minutes because his team seems to play down to their competition.

[A roc 23]

That's good because Lamb actually played a huge role in UCONN's championship winning campaign while Barnes played very poorly for majority of UNC's elimination game. I thought he would improve, but he sucked yet against Kentucky this month.

But I do like Barnes' FTA #'s. He could improve his TO rate though

Barnes certainly isn't a perfect prospect. I'm glad there is still a lot of Barnes left to see because I'm not sold on him yet, but he's one of the 5-6 guys I'm definitely interested in.

[5DOM]

By the way, Lamb actually assists more per minute than Barnes. He also blocks more and steals more. I don't think per36 stats are very good indicators either considering Lamb plays significantly more minutes than Barnes.

Lamb averages 1.6 in 37 minutes. Barnes 1.2 in 26 minutes. In 37 minutes Barnes' numers would equal 1.7 assists. Not much difference but still higher than Lamb. Probably not worth mentioning.

I stand corrected. I was looking at last year's #s.

I'd argue that Lamb plays more minutes because his team seems to play down to their competition.

And Lamb doesn't have the luxury of playing on a team like UNC (although his supporting cast isn't bad by any means)

[Prestige]

We really need to hit the jackpot and snag a franchise, superstar type player. We already have a bunch of 'ok' young players, but nobody on the level of a Durant, Rose, or Dwight. It may sound far fetched but I think we should think big, we really need a guy like that before we get anywhere. If we keep drafting Demars or Ed Davises every year we might sneak up and get the 8th seed one day but we'll never be a contender. See Minnesota as an example of a team who has continuously picked in the lottery but has never gotten a superstar since KG left. Or G-State. Or Milwaukee. Maybe those teams steal a playoff berth once in a while, but usually they stink.

I think right now a lot of fans here want players who 'fit' into supposed holes on this team, but the reality is that the entire team is a hole. There is no spot where we're 'set' other than maybe C. So instead of imagining how this guy would fit next to Demar or that guy next to Bargs we should be looking at who can have the most impact.

I'm not a big college BB fan, but Barnes, MKG, and Lamb don't have that superstar vibe to me. Drummond and Anthony Davis seem more likely to emerge into those types of players, what do you guys think? Do we have to wait another year for an impact player?

[Rhettmatic]

Feature on MKG here:

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/ ... nav%7Chead

[5DOM]

I usually don't care about the intangibles, but MKG just sounds like a winner.

[Pseudonym]

I'm not a big college BB fan, but Barnes, MKG, and Lamb don't have that superstar vibe to me. Drummond and Anthony Davis seem more likely to emerge into those types of players, what do you guys think? Do we have to wait another year for an impact player?

The thing is that we'll surely be too good to have a high enough pick to get that impact player. So we either have to sign or trade for an elite player or draft a superstar...this year.

Considering where we're likely to pick, MKG will probably be BPA. Though if we win the lotto or something a Drummond/Val has wayyy too much potential to pass up.

[ATLTimekeeper]

MKG must have about 5 run-stopping baskets this year where he grabbed an offensive rebound right under the basket and muscled the ball in. I agree that "winner" is kind of a vague term to pin down, but he seems like someone you can just draft and plug into the starting line-up for a decade. My guess is he'll go higher than everyone expects to a team that already has their "#1." Washington or maybe Cleveland make sense.

I'm actually liking Barnes more and more this year. The defensive stats that someone wrote about a few weeks ago kind of scared me, but I don't think he's the type that doesn't care about defence. And he doesn't look like he's lacing any physical attributes to be a strong defender. I'm not convinced Roy's system is really the best showcase for his skills, either. I have a feeling he's high on our board. He seems like a cadet and he can shoot.

[A roc 23]

The thing is that we'll surely be too good to have a high enough pick to get that impact player. So we either have to sign or trade for an elite player or draft a superstar...this year.

Considering where we're likely to pick, MKG will probably be BPA. Though if we win the lotto or something a Drummond/Val has wayyy too much potential to pass up.

I agree with that. I think in 2012-2013 the Raptors will start looking like a good team and be out the running for a top pick. I'm predicting playoffs by 2013 if everything continues on the current path.

ALL of the current core players will be between 24-28 (either entering or in their prime) + Jose will still be serviceable (and a large expirer) + Jonas + top 5 pick + BC will sign someone with all that cap space. If the Raptors are still competing for a top pick after all that they are screwed.

I'd try to move the 2013 pick for another lottery pick or use it in a package to get a prospect. The Raptors better get a star out of this draft because they won't be in a position to get one in 2013.

[CunningLinguist]

I don't know why people think it's supposed to be impressive that Barnes is averaging those #s playing for a top 5-6. If you look at the stats, he's basically a catch-and-shoot scorer who has more to gain by playing for a stacked team. What's worse is that he's not even a good passer and his defense has never been that great either.

By the way, Lamb actually assists more per minute than Barnes. He also blocks more and steals more. I don't think per36 stats are very good indicators either considering Lamb plays significantly more minutes than Barnes.

Barnes has been much more than a catch and shoot scorer this year. He's shown that he can create his own shot with one or two dribbles and has really worked on his post game. He's also driving more. His passing is also improving. The reason his assist numbers aren't that impressive is that his role in the offence is to be the finisher of the play. With Marshall as the primary distributor, he's not being used as a facilitator. Perry Jones and Andre Drummond don't put up big assist numbers either, but it's obvious that they both have excellent passing skills.

Barnes is also a very good defender. Too often people equate blocks and steals to good defence. I just look at how good Barnes is in terms of lateral movement and staying in front of his man and I can project him as a good defender at the next level.

I like MKG, but I see him as an Iguodala/Artest type, rather than a primary scorer. His shot mechanics are so horrendous that I think he's going to have to completely start from scratch to improve that part of his game. For those that prefer MKG to Barnes, exactly what does he bring to the table for the Raps that James Johnson doesn't? To me, they have very similar strengths and weaknesses.

[Young_Buc]

I don't know why people think it's supposed to be impressive that Barnes is averaging those #s playing for a top 5-6. If you look at the stats, he's basically a catch-and-shoot scorer who has more to gain by playing for a stacked team. What's worse is that he's not even a good passer and his defense has never been that great either.

By the way, Lamb actually assists more per minute than Barnes. He also blocks more and steals more. I don't think per36 stats are very good indicators either considering Lamb plays significantly more minutes than Barnes.

Barnes has been much more than a catch and shoot scorer this year. He's shown that he can create his own shot with one or two dribbles and has really worked on his post game. He's also driving more. His passing is also improving. The reason his assist number aren't that impressive is that his role in the offence is to be the finisher of the play. With Marshall as the primary distributor, he's not being used as a facilitator. Perry Jones and Andre Drummond don't put up big assist numbers either, but it's obvious that they both have excellent passing skills.

Barnes is also a very good defender. Too often people equate blocks and steals to good defence. I just look at how good Barnes is in terms of lateral movement and staying in front of his man and I can project him as a good defender at the next level.

I like MKG, but I see him as an Iguodala/Artest type, rather than a primary scorer. His shot mechanics are so horrendous that I think he's going to have to completely start from scratch to improve that part of his game. For those that prefer MKG to Barnes, exactly what does he bring to the table for the Raps that James Johnson doesn't? To me, they have very similar strengths and weaknesses.

MKG can penetrate far better than JJ.

Shoots a much better pct than JJ.

18 years old.

[CunningLinguist]

I don't know why people think it's supposed to be impressive that Barnes is averaging those #s playing for a top 5-6. If you look at the stats, he's basically a catch-and-shoot scorer who has more to gain by playing for a stacked team. What's worse is that he's not even a good passer and his defense has never been that great either.

By the way, Lamb actually assists more per minute than Barnes. He also blocks more and steals more. I don't think per36 stats are very good indicators either considering Lamb plays significantly more minutes than Barnes.

Barnes has been much more than a catch and shoot scorer this year. He's shown that he can create his own shot with one or two dribbles and has really worked on his post game. He's also driving more. His passing is also improving. The reason his assist number aren't that impressive is that his role in the offence is to be the finisher of the play. With Marshall as the primary distributor, he's not being used as a facilitator. Perry Jones and Andre Drummond don't put up big assist numbers either, but it's obvious that they both have excellent passing skills.

Barnes is also a very good defender. Too often people equate blocks and steals to good defence. I just look at how good Barnes is in terms of lateral movement and staying in front of his man and I can project him as a good defender at the next level.

I like MKG, but I see him as an Iguodala/Artest type, rather than a primary scorer. His shot mechanics are so horrendous that I think he's going to have to completely start from scratch to improve that part of his game. For those that prefer MKG to Barnes, exactly what does he bring to the table for the Raps that James Johnson doesn't? To me, they have very similar strengths and weaknesses.

MKG can penetrate far better than JJ.

Shoots a much better pct than JJ.

18 years old.

I'm guessing you never saw Johnson play in college. He penetrated plenty at that level and shot high %'s. MKG's shooting % is a function of how he his scores his baskets, not his shooting ability. He scores mostly on fast breaks and putbacks.

[So Clutch]

As much as I've been on Barnes' ass for not being as good ISO as I'd like, he's still my top choice for SF at the moment. His size, shooting, rebounding and defense are too much to pass on.

Take him next year, throw all our money at Westbrook and I am a happy man.

[JamesNaismith]

If the recovery time is that long and he isn't able to showcast anything during March Madness, then it's a huge risk taking this guy. I don't remember if it's you that said it or not, someone said if he isn't able to recover by march, then he's not worth taking.

That was actually me...

Which goes to really diffuse your perception that I have a massive bias for Miller. If he's unable to be back to form by that point then just my opinion; he will never be the player he once was....like Grant Hill, Penny etc. -- sad but true. It's just when he is 100%, he's clearly a much better player offensively then Barnes; if he remains the way he is then YES even I take Harrison over him and don't think twice about it.

I'm glad we can agree Barnes is not a top 3 this year. I have no problem admitting he MAY have snuck into the top 3 last year's dysmal draft of the decade BUT I can't say that for sure either if Sullinger and Perry Jones went last year as well especially when we seen both Utah and CLE took PFs....but again to his defence I personally think he would of ended up in CLE as him and Kyrie were known to be friends even prior to college.

The biggest problem with Harrison overall is his HANDLES (period). It's not that he's not aggressive enough or doesn't step up...it's just when he's forced to create he can't. That's confused with him getting then ball and immediately driving a straight line to the basket; not the same thing. I think you know the diff so I won't explain it. Just that's why this kid went from being hyped as the next Melo/Durant to basically a SF Rip Hamilton. Because both those guys' jumpers are money (as is Barnes' most days), problem for him is he hasn't improved his handles where he can make the defence respect his ability to create which is reflective in his assist numbers and where he gets his points from. Unfortunately, I have little belief that most prospects can tighten their handles especially when Barnes has been putting himself in CP3 camps each year and still don't see any difference.

[A roc 23]

As much as I've been on Barnes' ass for not being as good ISO as I'd like, he's still my top choice for SF at the moment. His size, shooting, rebounding and defense are too much to pass on.

Take him next year, throw all our money at Westbrook and I am a happy man.

Westbrook / Bayless
DeMar / Weems
Barnes / JJ / Kleiza
Bargnani / Ed (or other way around)
Jonas / Amir / Sacre (2nd round pick)

That would be my dream scenario for 2013. I'd look to package Bayless + the 2013 draft pick for a pick in the 9-12 range and grab Austin Rivers for some shooting off the bench. Or even the 2013 pick for someone like Doron Lamb to come off the bench and shoot the lights out. That is a very balanced team.

Westbrook / Rivers
DeMar / Rivers / Weems
Barnes / JJ / Kleiza
Bargnani / Ed (or other way around)
Jonas / Amir / Sacre (2nd round pick)

Lovely.

[Young_Buc]

I'm guessing you never saw Johnson play in college. He penetrated plenty at that level and shot high %'s. MKG's shooting % is a function of how he his scores his baskets, not his shooting ability. He scores mostly on fast breaks and putbacks.

Never watched him at wake forrest but I do remember he was REALLY old for his draft class. Something like Tristan Thompson old. Can't imagine he was as quick as MKG with the extra weight. I like everything about JJ except his inability to score and MKG leading the most NBA talent laden team in scoring says something about him.