Official Raptors 2012 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3

[Young_Buc]

The reason people give Barnes such a hard time was because the kid was supposed to be CANT MISS. In terms if his level as a prospect and just doesn't look so. I remember the comparisons for him were: Grant Hill/Small Forward Kobe. I was expecting a GREAT ball handler/passer, not some catch and shoot Glen Rice clone.

[CunningLinguist]

If the recovery time is that long and he isn't able to showcast anything during March Madness, then it's a huge risk taking this guy. I don't remember if it's you that said it or not, someone said if he isn't able to recover by march, then he's not worth taking.

That was actually me...

Which goes to really diffuse your perception that I have a massive bias for Miller. If he's unable to be back to form by that point then just my opinion; he will never be the player he once was....like Grant Hill, Penny etc. -- sad but true. It's just when he is 100%, he's clearly a much better player offensively then Barnes; if he remains the way he is then YES even I take Harrison over him and don't think twice about it.

I'm glad we can agree Barnes is not a top 3 this year. I have no problem admitting he MAY have snuck into the top 3 last year's dysmal draft of the decade BUT I can't say that for sure either if Sullinger and Perry Jones went last year as well especially when we seen both Utah and CLE took PFs....but again to his defence I personally think he would of ended up in CLE as him and Kyrie were known to be friends even prior to college.

The biggest problem with Harrison overall is his HANDLES (period). It's not that he's not aggressive enough or doesn't step up...it's just when he's forced to create he can't. That's confused with him getting then ball and immediately driving a straight line to the basket; not the same thing. I think you know the diff so I won't explain it. Just that's why this kid went from being hyped as the next Melo/Durant to basically a SF Rip Hamilton. Because both those guys' jumpers are money (as is Barnes' most days), problem for him is he hasn't improved his handles where he can make the defence respect his ability to create which is reflective in his assist numbers and where he gets his points from. Unfortunately, I have little belief that most prospects can tighten their handles especially when Barnes has been putting himself in CP3 camps each year and still don't see any difference.

While I agree that Barnes' handles aren't great, I've seen improvement from his freshman year. I don't see MKG or Miller having that much better ballhandling. There are plenty of small forwards in the NBA with unspectacular handles that have done just fine (Paul Pierce for one has a very sloppy handle). Barnes' is very good at creating space with a step back move and he has a burgeoning post game. I think he'll have a very versatile offensive game at the next level over time.

[CunningLinguist]

Never watched him at wake forrest but I do remember he was REALLY old for his draft class. Something like Tristan Thompson old. Can't imagine he was as quick as MKG with the extra weight. I like everything about JJ except his inability to score and MKG leading the most NBA talent laden team in scoring says something about him.[/quote]

You have to look at how MKG is scoring though and how that translates to being an end of the shotclock player at the next level. He's scoring in a fashion similar to how Gerald Wallace scores. Is he the guy you want taking the last shot in crunch time?

[Undefeated]

Quincy Miller’s game doesn’t rely on a whole lot of athleticism to begin with, so I don’t know why people are all up in arms like his career will follow path of Brandon Roy’s. His game is dependent on using his length, crafty footwork on the perimeter and inside to score and even if he reaches 80% of his quickness and mobility where it once was, I’d still take him. He’s got a good feel for the game and his floor game is excellent; can see the floor, pass, shoot, run the fast break and hit his teammates in transition for lay-ups. Baylor barely runs any plays to free Quincy Miller off ball or allows him to create, so how the hell is Quincy able to display his game for scouts? It’s the exact same with Andre Drummond. Despite not getting the ball, he has had three games this year with 4+ assists.

And Quincy completely destroyed Tristan Thompson and CoJo back in HS here…

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpGqKvJscxw[/youtube]

[Young_Buc]

Never watched him at wake forrest but I do remember he was REALLY old for his draft class. Something like Tristan Thompson old. Can't imagine he was as quick as MKG with the extra weight. I like everything about JJ except his inability to score and MKG leading the most NBA talent laden team in scoring says something about him.

You have to look at how MKG is scoring though and how that translates to being an end of the shotclock player at the next level. He's scoring in a fashion similar to how Gerald Wallace scores. Is he the guy you want taking the last shot in crunch time?[/quote

I know he does score a lot of his points in transition, but he does not flounder in the half court. MKG is a GREAT finisher with LONG strides and a great first step. While his handle is good for a 3, it's not necessarily mandatory. I really think he will develop into the best player outside of Davis in this class.

[fredericklove]

MKG can penetrate far better than JJ.

Shoots a much better pct than JJ.

18 years old.

LMAO at the way you interpret this.

[BosnianStallion]

Bargnani isn't needed anymore in that line-up when you have scoring maestro Westbrook. Huge reason he's still on the team is that he gives us that scoring punch, with more than enough support coming in, Ed Davis would be a much, much better fit.

[CunningLinguist]

The reason people give Barnes such a hard time was because the kid was supposed to be CANT MISS. In terms if his level as a prospect and just doesn't look so. I remember the comparisons for him were: Grant Hill/Small Forward Kobe. I was expecting a GREAT ball handler/passer, not some catch and shoot Glen Rice clone.

A few points:

1) whoever compared him to Kobe is an idiot. His game was never in any way similar. I would compare him more to a Jamal Mashburn type of player on the offensive end with much better defence

2) He's much more than a catch and shoot player. I don't know how anybody who's watched him this year can categorize him as such. That may have been how he was utilized in the early part of his freshman year, but his offensive game has grown to be more diversified than that

3) many often criticize his athleticism but I think it's fine for the next level. Lebron is the only offensively skilled SF that I can think of that's a freak athlete. Is Barnes any less athletic than Melo or Pierce? Even Durant isn't a great athlete for his position, he's just super skilled

[fredericklove]

As much as I've been on Barnes' ass for not being as good ISO as I'd like, he's still my top choice for SF at the moment. His size, shooting, rebounding and defense are too much to pass on.

Take him next year, throw all our money at Westbrook and I am a happy man.

Westbrick..umm, clearly he can be the man of this team, how about Dwill, he complains about not having "pieces" on the nets team and he's not signing extension. On a team with a potential core of demar, barnes, bargnani and Val, we need an elite passer to compliment these scoring weapons, I can imagine westbrick ignoring all 4 players and go str8 ahead to jack up the shot in early clock situation in final play. Deron on the other hand, will make unselfish plays though. But it's hard to get Dwill here if he wants to be on a team that wants to win championship. Although Westbrick is younger and a much better defender, I give him credit for both attributes.

[IrMitchell]

Quincy Miller’s game doesn’t rely on a whole lot of athleticism to begin with, so I don’t know why people are all up in arms like his career will path of Brandon Roy’s. His game is dependent on using his length, crafty footwork on the perimeter and inside to score and even if he reaches 80% of his quickness and mobility where it once was, I’d still take him. He’s got a feel for the game and his floor game is excellent; can see the floor, pass, shoot, run the fast break and hit his teammates in transition for lay-ups. Baylor barely runs any play to free Quincy Miller off ball or allows him to create, so how the hell is Quincy able to display his game for scouts? It’s the exact same with Andre Drummond. Despite not getting the ball, he has had three games this year with 4+ assists.

Quincy completely destroyed Tristan Thompson and CoJo back in HS here…

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpGqKvJscxw[/youtube]

I'd be lying if I said this was impressive.

I remember when the mount zion kids used to come over to our school every year back in the day, always had players who controlled the game like this.

[JamesNaismith]

While I agree that Barnes' handles aren't great, I've seen improvement from his freshman year. I don't see MKG or Miller having that much better ballhandling. There are plenty of small forwards in the NBA with unspectacular handles that have done just fine (Paul Pierce for one has a very sloppy handle). Barnes' is very good at creating space with a step back move and he has a burgeoning post game. I think he'll have a very versatile offensive game at the next level over time.

Barnes aside.....


Paul Pierce has VERY sloppy handles??!?! What hell are you talking about?!?!?

If anything it's because Paul is so crafty with both his body movement and ball handling skills then throughout his career he could pretty much get fouled or to the rim at will. Pierce constantly breaks down the defence. Sorry but that's just a terrible reference on your part; if Barnes ever gets Pierce's handles then he would be a SPECIAL player as he's arguebly a much more pure shooter and before you go there....Paul didn't "improve" his handles over time. He was always pretty solid.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi7rGqfzag8&feature=related[/youtube]

[marcwagz]

I'm gonna try not to think about it too much
reason is I never would have picked jonas but now im glad we did

so I think its best we trust the scouts

although I would really like a sf and not a big

I know people want bpa but there comes a time when you have too much and it is hard to trade the pieces you already have for what you want

[JYD]

Never watched him at wake forrest but I do remember he was REALLY old for his draft class. Something like Tristan Thompson old. Can't imagine he was as quick as MKG with the extra weight. I like everything about JJ except his inability to score and MKG leading the most NBA talent laden team in scoring says something about him.

You have to look at how MKG is scoring though and how that translates to being an end of the shotclock player at the next level. He's scoring in a fashion similar to how Gerald Wallace scores. Is he the guy you want taking the last shot in crunch time?[/quote

I know he does score a lot of his points in transition, but he does not flounder in the half court. MKG is a GREAT finisher with LONG strides and a great first step. While his handle is good for a 3, it's not necessarily mandatory. I really think he will develop into the best player outside of Davis in this class.

If we're comparing Miller, Barnes and MKG, I'd say Miller is the only one who can be a focal point on offense. Between Barnes and MKG, Barnes is the more talented offensive player, but not a great one, and overall I think MKG looks like he'll bring more to the table in all aspects of his game.

So for me, in this draft, Miller is the only one I would consider a prize out of the 3, if we're aiming for a potential star. MKG and Barnes are on a tier below thatt, but I'd take MKG easily over Barnes.

[CunningLinguist]

While I agree that Barnes' handles aren't great, I've seen improvement from his freshman year. I don't see MKG or Miller having that much better ballhandling. There are plenty of small forwards in the NBA with unspectacular handles that have done just fine (Paul Pierce for one has a very sloppy handle). Barnes' is very good at creating space with a step back move and he has a burgeoning post game. I think he'll have a very versatile offensive game at the next level over time.

Barnes aside.....


Paul Pierce has VERY sloppy handles??!?! What hell are you talking about?!?!?

If anything it's because Paul is so crafty with both his body movement and ball handling skills then throughout his career he could pretty much get fouled or to the rim at will. Pierce constantly breaks down the defence. Sorry but that's just a terrible reference on your part; if Barnes ever gets Pierce's handles then he would be a SPECIAL player as he's arguebly a much more pure shooter and before you go there....Paul didn't "improve" his handles over time. He was always pretty solid.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi7rGqfzag8&feature=related[/youtube]

He doesn't score based on his handle. He relies more on craftiness and strength. He also incorporates a lot of spin moves and shields his defender from the ball in order to compensate. His dribble is very right hand dominant. He doesn't use both hands with his drives to the bucket very often. Look at 1:03 of the video and see how awkward the transition is to his left hand. At 1:15 you see a couple of plays where he creates using a step back jumper, much the same way Barnes does.

And look at 6:03 to see how sloppy his handle is when he uses both hands.

[Undefeated]

2) He's much more than a catch and shoot player. I don't know how anybody who's watched him this year can categorize him as such. That may have been how he was utilized in the early part of his freshman year, but his offensive game has grown to be more diversified than that

Yeah, Harrison Barnes is much more than a catch-and-shoot scorer. He's got that one-two dribble pull-up going for him that's money and a good post game, but his offense still lacks diversity and creativity. Outside of those three very efficient offensive plays, he doesn't have much else to offer because his handles are still very shaky. Some of his turnovers are a result of running into good help defense and forcing the issue by driving into heavy traffic, but I still see him dribble the ball off of his foot when he's in light traffic from time to time. Things like that shouldn't be happening for a potential top three pick. As for his passing, he makes smart passes along the wing, but when he's posting up and can't create a good look at the basket, he forces the shot instead of passing out for a re-post. This illustrates his lack of court vision imo. Talk about a non-existent left hand too.

[Undefeated]

Quincy Miller’s game doesn’t rely on a whole lot of athleticism to begin with, so I don’t know why people are all up in arms like his career will path of Brandon Roy’s. His game is dependent on using his length, crafty footwork on the perimeter and inside to score and even if he reaches 80% of his quickness and mobility where it once was, I’d still take him. He’s got a feel for the game and his floor game is excellent; can see the floor, pass, shoot, run the fast break and hit his teammates in transition for lay-ups. Baylor barely runs any play to free Quincy Miller off ball or allows him to create, so how the hell is Quincy able to display his game for scouts? It’s the exact same with Andre Drummond. Despite not getting the ball, he has had three games this year with 4+ assists.

Quincy completely destroyed Tristan Thompson and CoJo back in HS here…

I'd be lying if I said this was impressive.

I remember when the mount zion kids used to come over to our school every year back in the day, always had players who controlled the game like this.

Well, there's other footage out there that Quincy Miller looks more impressive. This is just one where he's playing against NBA prospects then.

[7-Day Dray]

I think Barnes has improved his handles from last season. I've seen him do some power dropsteps and out moves on the drive, and his left hand is solid too from what I've seen. His handles aren't great though. He'll never be a guy that will play around with the ball on the perimeter. I think he'll be more of a quick strike player at the next level and and attack when he has the opportunity, not trying to shake defenders left & right.

[5DOM]

2) He's much more than a catch and shoot player. I don't know how anybody who's watched him this year can categorize him as such. That may have been how he was utilized in the early part of his freshman year, but his offensive game has grown to be more diversified than that

Yeah, Harrison Barnes is much more than a catch-and-shoot scorer. He's got that one-two dribble pull-up going for him that's money and a good post game, but his offense still lacks diversity and creativity. Outside of those three very efficient offensive plays, he doesn't have much else to offer because his handles are still very shaky. Some of his turnovers are a result of running into good help defense and forcing the issue by driving into heavy traffic, but I still see him dribble the ball off of his foot when he's in light traffic from time to time. Things like that shouldn't be happening for a potential top three pick. As for his passing, he makes smart passes along the wing, but when he's posting up and can't create a good look at the basket, he forces the shot instead of passing out for a re-post. This illustrates his lack of court vision imo. Talk about a non-existent left hand too.

While I do think that he has a couple of decent looking moves, he's yet to convert consistently

As seen in the first table, through the season’s first ten games, Barnes’ points per possession (PPP) on catch-and-shoot/0-dribble possessions is a robust 1.51. This includes a sizzling 55.6% (15-27) from behind the 3-point arc. On possessions in which he takes a single dribble, his PPP falls off to 0.81. When using multiple dribbles, it drops further to 0.66. With 2+ dribbles, Barnes is shooting just 31.3% (10-32) through 10 games with an A:TO of 0.33 (3 assists, 9 TOs). The promising news, perhaps, is that two of those assists came in the Heels’ last game against Evansville.

As for Barnes being a very good defender, see

2. Sophomore small forward Harrison Barnes, who was a middle-of-the-pack defender last season, has regressed to the point that he has the worst stop percentage of any rotation player (50.6). He's allowing opponents to shoot 49.0 percent on three-point attempts, and his defensive rebounding percentage has dropped from 12.6 as a freshman to a non-factor-level 7.4. Barnes needs to be a more engaged defender if he plans on leading UNC to a national championship.

[CunningLinguist]

2) He's much more than a catch and shoot player. I don't know how anybody who's watched him this year can categorize him as such. That may have been how he was utilized in the early part of his freshman year, but his offensive game has grown to be more diversified than that

Yeah, Harrison Barnes is much more than a catch-and-shoot scorer. He's got that one-two dribble pull-up going for him that's money and a good post game, but his offense still lacks diversity and creativity. Outside of those three very efficient offensive plays, he doesn't have much else to offer because his handles are still very shaky. Some of his turnovers are a result of running into good help defense and forcing the issue by driving into heavy traffic, but I still see him dribble the ball off of his foot when he's in light traffic from time to time. Things like that shouldn't be happening for a potential top three pick. As for his passing, he makes smart passes along the wing, but when he's posting up and can't create a good look at the basket, he forces the shot instead of passing out for a re-post. This illustrates his lack of court vision imo. Talk about a non-existent left hand too.

I'm not saying he's a great ballhandler, I'm saying I see him developing into a crafty scorer, much in the same way Pierce is. There 's nothing wrong with being able to score in those three ways at his age. He should also be able to score in the midrange off curls also.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the paint is much less clogged in the pro game than it is in college, which will help his driving game. And I don't see the other small forward prospects in this draft having a significantly better handle.

[Undefeated]

I'm not saying he's a great ballhandler, I'm saying I see him developing into a crafty scorer, much in the same way Pierce is. There 's nothing wrong with being able to score in those three ways at his age. He should also be able to score in the midrange off curls also.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the paint is much less clogged in the pro game than it is in college, which will help his driving game. And I don't see the other small forward prospects in this draft having a significantly better handle.

Barnes doesn't have great footwork, so I doubt he'll mold into something like Paul Pierce. He reminds me of a rich-man's Luol Deng who won't create much off the dribble and shake off his defender to attack the basket, but if he sees an opening or crack in the defense, he'll take one or two dribbles and explode to the rim. And Michael Kidd-Gilchrist to an extent and Quincy Miller are better ball handlers.