Official Raptors 2012 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3

[CunningLinguist]

As for Barnes being a very good defender, see

2. Sophomore small forward Harrison Barnes, who was a middle-of-the-pack defender last season, has regressed to the point that he has the worst stop percentage of any rotation player (50.6). He's allowing opponents to shoot 49.0 percent on three-point attempts, and his defensive rebounding percentage has dropped from 12.6 as a freshman to a non-factor-level 7.4. Barnes needs to be a more engaged defender if he plans on leading UNC to a national championship.

What do your eyes tell you when you watch Barnes play D? I see a guy who has very good lateral quicks and has no problem staying in front of his man.

[5DOM]

As for Barnes being a very good defender, see

2. Sophomore small forward Harrison Barnes, who was a middle-of-the-pack defender last season, has regressed to the point that he has the worst stop percentage of any rotation player (50.6). He's allowing opponents to shoot 49.0 percent on three-point attempts, and his defensive rebounding percentage has dropped from 12.6 as a freshman to a non-factor-level 7.4. Barnes needs to be a more engaged defender if he plans on leading UNC to a national championship.

What do your eyes tell you when you watch Barnes play D? I see a guy who has very good lateral quicks and has no problem staying in front of his man.

I think he has the tools, but I never got the sense that he's a great defender. I mean you've been saying that MKG doesn't have great ball handling skills either, but MKG with his limitations scored just fine against Barnes. And from what I've read MKG did well against Barnes in HS too.

I think a lot of what's being said about Barnes is based on how he looks rather than how he's played. Even last season when Barnes' shots weren't falling at all, people were saying that he's a great shooter just because his shot looks great.

[CunningLinguist]

As for Barnes being a very good defender, see

2. Sophomore small forward Harrison Barnes, who was a middle-of-the-pack defender last season, has regressed to the point that he has the worst stop percentage of any rotation player (50.6). He's allowing opponents to shoot 49.0 percent on three-point attempts, and his defensive rebounding percentage has dropped from 12.6 as a freshman to a non-factor-level 7.4. Barnes needs to be a more engaged defender if he plans on leading UNC to a national championship.

What do your eyes tell you when you watch Barnes play D? I see a guy who has very good lateral quicks and has no problem staying in front of his man.

I think he has the tools, but I never got the sense that he's a great defender. I mean you've been saying that MKG doesn't have great ball handling skills either, but MKG with his limitations scored just fine against Barnes. And from what I've read MKG did well against Barnes in HS too.

I think a lot of what's being said about Barnes is based on how he looks rather than how he's played. Even last season when Barnes' shots weren't falling at all, people were saying that he's a great shooter just because his shot looks great.

And this year has proven that to be correct, has it not?

[5DOM]

And this year has proven that to be correct, has it not?

This year, for sure. He's proven himself to be a very effective catch and shoot scorer. But that wasn't the point. The point was that people tend to say things about Barnes that's not supported by the #s. In fact, the #'s suggest the opposite - Barnes is only good at catching and shooting and he's actually been a below average defender.

[CunningLinguist]

I'm not saying he's a great ballhandler, I'm saying I see him developing into a crafty scorer, much in the same way Pierce is. There 's nothing wrong with being able to score in those three ways at his age. He should also be able to score in the midrange off curls also.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the paint is much less clogged in the pro game than it is in college, which will help his driving game. And I don't see the other small forward prospects in this draft having a significantly better handle.

Barnes doesn't have great footwork, so I doubt he'll mold into something like Paul Pierce. He reminds me of a rich-man's Luol Deng who won't create much off the dribble and shake off his defender to attack the basket, but if he sees an opening or crack in the defense, he'll take one or two dribbles and explode to the rim. And Michael Kidd-Gilchrist to an extent and Quincy Miller are better ball handlers.

MKG is going to need to be a better ballhandler than Barnes because defenders will sag off him until he gets his shot fixed. Barnes' ability to catch and shoot and create with the step back will force defenders to play him tighter, giving him a better angle to the basket.

[Rapsfan07]

I think Quincy Miller will drop in the draft just like Paul Pierce did and surprise a lot of people.

Many teams are going to regret not taking him and one team that was smart enough to take the chance is going to be laughing. I just hope that team is us.

Baylor does not us him at all and he rarely gets touches on offense. If he does, they use him is a post-up situation and he doesn't get to utilize his perimeter skills.

I still believe a healthy Quincy Miller is the best prospect in this draft. Hopefully come Baylor can find a way to utilize him or we can trade down to get him because I think he's be a serious steal just like DeRozan, Ed and Jonas were and the prospects in this draft have far more holes in their game than I initially thought.

[CunningLinguist]

And this year has proven that to be correct, has it not?

This year, for sure. He's proven himself to be a very effective catch and shoot scorer. But that wasn't the point. The point was that people tend to say things about Barnes that's not supported by the #s. In fact, the #'s suggest the opposite - Barnes is only good at catching and shooting and he's actually been a below average defender.

He's increased his trips to the line this year in fewer minutes and has scored more off the dribble and in the post.

[fredericklove]

And this year has proven that to be correct, has it not?

This year, for sure. He's proven himself to be a very effective catch and shoot scorer. But that wasn't the point. The point was that people tend to say things about Barnes that's not supported by the #s. In fact, the #'s suggest the opposite - Barnes is only good at catching and shooting and he's actually been a below average defender.

I just find that funny, I won't argue him being above average, but below average is just outrageous. Yeah sure, pull your chad ford like stat out again and again. He's shown pretty solid footwork and good defensive stance in many games. I clearly don't see what you see in him being a below average defender.

[5DOM]

And this year has proven that to be correct, has it not?

This year, for sure. He's proven himself to be a very effective catch and shoot scorer. But that wasn't the point. The point was that people tend to say things about Barnes that's not supported by the #s. In fact, the #'s suggest the opposite - Barnes is only good at catching and shooting and he's actually been a below average defender.

I just find that funny, I won't argue him being above average, but below average is just outrageous. Yeah sure, pull your chad ford like stat out again and again. He's shown solid footwork and defense stance. I clearly don't see what you see in him being a below average defender.

I'm just going by the stats and the comment. I've personally never really thought too much about his defense because I've always thought it's neither great or poor. And really a lot of SF's these prospects face aren't very good offensively anyway.

Speaking of "Chad Ford"-like stats, here's something I found interesting:

Barnes, for all his talents, is a surprisingly poor rebounder. Although he possesses a muscular, 6-foot-8 frame, he grabs just 8.6 percent of boards, which is a lower rate than his backup, Reggie Bullock. If he were a better rebounder, it would make more sense for Henson and Zeller to aggressively go for blocks. Barnes' weakness on the boards is made more glaring by their desire to swat shots. And in Carolina's two losses (UNLV and Kentucky), the Heels allowed 13 and 14 offensive boards, respectively. Teams that crash the offensive glass are going to give the Tar Heels trouble.

[5DOM]

And this year has proven that to be correct, has it not?

This year, for sure. He's proven himself to be a very effective catch and shoot scorer. But that wasn't the point. The point was that people tend to say things about Barnes that's not supported by the #s. In fact, the #'s suggest the opposite - Barnes is only good at catching and shooting and he's actually been a below average defender.

He's increased his trips to the line this year in fewer minutes and has scored more off the dribble and in the post.

I've already said that I like the increased # of FTA. But the fact is other than the catch-and-shoot opportunities, he hasn't exactly been very efficient.

[CunningLinguist]

I've already said that I like the increased # of FTA. But the fact is other than the catch-and-shoot opportunities, he hasn't exactly been very efficient.

Sounds like you've been ready some stat on the ESPN website. Again, what do your eyes tell you? He's improved both his 2 point % and 3 point % dramatically while utilizing fewer catch and shoot opportunities.

[Undefeated]

MKG is going to need to be a better ballhandler than Barnes because defenders will sag off him until he gets his shot fixed. Barnes' ability to catch and shoot and create with the step back will force defenders to play him tighter, giving him a better angle to the basket.

Despite Michael Kidd-Gilchrist needing to tweak his shooting mechanics, he's already shown the ability to put the ball on the floor and take it strong to the hole when he sees an opening. He did this once or twice against Harrison Barnes too during the match-up between UNC-UK.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9mefHjfo30[/youtube]

Unlike Harrison Barnes, he doesn't dribble the ball off of his foot when in light traffic either. And when has Barnes show some sort of counter when in traffic like a spin move or euro step?

[fredericklove]

MKG is going to need to be a better ballhandler than Barnes because defenders will sag off him until he gets his shot fixed. Barnes' ability to catch and shoot and create with the step back will force defenders to play him tighter, giving him a better angle to the basket.

Despite Michael Kidd-Gilchrist needing to tweak his shooting mechanics, he's already shown the ability to put the ball on the floor and take it strong to the hole when he sees an opening. He did this once or twice against Harrison Barnes too during the match-up between UNC-UK.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9mefHjfo30[/youtube]

Unlike Harrison Barnes, he doesn't dribble the ball off of his foot when in light traffic either. And when has Barnes show some sort of counter when in traffic like a spin move or euro step?

He has shown spin moves and euro step in traffic. You want me to bring the youtube clips back on again?

[CunningLinguist]

Unlike Harrison Barnes, he doesn't dribble the ball off of his foot when in light traffic either. And when has Barnes show some sort of counter when in traffic like a spin move or euro step?

I've seen spin moves from Barnes also. Look, I like MKG too, I just think at this point the gap in shooting ability in Barnes' favour is greater the gap in ballhandling in MKG's favour. Unless MKG completely reconstructs his shot mechanics, I think he may have difficulty getting it off in traffic at the next level

[Live Free]

I see an Ariza or Marion ceiling out of MKG, he's just not an offensive weapon its not his game. At the end of the day Barnes has a higher ceiling than MKG and thats what matters.

[Undefeated]

I've seen spin moves from Barnes also. Look, I like MKG too, I just think at this point the gap in shooting ability in Barnes' favour is greater the gap in ballhandling in MKG's favour. Unless MKG completely reconstructs his shot mechanics, I think he may have difficulty getting it off in traffic at the next level

Again, it's not like Barnes can take advantage of his sweet shooting stroke if he can't create for himself with the lack of ball handling creativity. Don't get me wrong, Barnes is an excellent ball handler in terms of keeping defenders from reaching in and stealing the ball. I'm okay with Kidd-Gilchrist tweaking his shot because that's the easiest skill to improve. And he doesn't seem to have much trouble in catch-and-shoot or 3-pt shooting (shooting 35.0%), so he's got some sort of foundation. I just think MKG has a much better overall floor game than Barnes at this point that's better suited at the SF position.

[raps_aviator]

Austin Rivers with 20 points 2 dimes in 24 minutes and played very efficiently also hitting 2 threes.

[CunningLinguist]

I've seen spin moves from Barnes also. Look, I like MKG too, I just think at this point the gap in shooting ability in Barnes' favour is greater the gap in ballhandling in MKG's favour. Unless MKG completely reconstructs his shot mechanics, I think he may have difficulty getting it off in traffic at the next level

Again, it's not like Barnes can take advantage of his sweet shooting stroke if he can't create for himself with the lack of ball handling creativity. Don't get me wrong, Barnes is an excellent ball handler in terms of keeping defenders from reaching in and stealing the ball. I'm okay with Kidd-Gilchrist tweaking his shot because that's the easiest skill to improve. And he doesn't seem to have much trouble in catch-and-shoot or 3-pt shooting (shooting 35.0%), so he's got some sort of foundation. I just think MKG has a much better overall floor game than Barnes at this point that's better suited at the SF position.

But Barnes has shown he can create his own shot with one or two dribbles and he has the height to shoot over people with a hand in his face. I agree with you on MKG's floor game. If I was to argue MKG over Barnes, I would start with his very good passing ability, though Barnes has improved in that area this year.

[FluLikeSymptoms]

MKG is pretty fast.

[PapeSowish]

Kidd-Gilchrist looking good early vs Louisville.