Complete Rose/Williams to Boozer Pick and Roll Tutorial

[kyrv]

So you are telling us that Rose is not a good a passer as Williams?

Problem with Boozer he's an undersized PF and he does not get the ball where he needs it to be he will shoot that fadeaway shot.

Not sure who you are asking, but yes Deron is probably a better passer than Rose.

Boozer has been very good if not elite as a pick and roll player. That's already been demonstrated in this thread and others, so I'm not quite following your Boozer comment.

[bigfan26]

I saw this from Friedell

Thibs and Rose have talked about getting Boozer in more pick and pop sets, but up to this point, we haven't seen many of them. Boozer seems most confident in that fadeaway jumper.

Maybe I was wrong to say Thibs probably knows all of this. Why on Earth are we even thinking about making Boozer a pick and pop shooter? Is it because he lost athleticism and they don't think he can finish in the paint? Is it because they don't think the pick and roll can work with Noah in the lineup?

As it is every time Noah comes up for the screen, I can guarantee you that it is going to be a Rose drive to the hole. The only point of bringing Noah for a screen is to get him out of the paint. This offense needs a go to move that is something other than Rose. My mind is absolutely blown how that go to move isn't a Rose and Boozer pick and roll....it is insane that it isn't at this point unless there is something big we don't know.

This is such a great thread full of win. It deserves to be on the front page at all time, so full of basketball knowledge, facts, insight and analysis.

Do you expect the bulls offense to improve with a legimate pick and pop big man?

Can Mirotic be that big for us? He's shown he has range out to 3 and he's a very confident shooter.

Do you think the bulls saw his skillset and targeted him because they knew this team eventually needed a stretch big to replace boozer, or was more of a BPA?

[alucryts]

So you are telling us that Rose is not a good a passer as Williams?

Problem with Boozer he's an undersized PF and he does not get the ball where he needs it to be he will shoot that fadeaway shot.

I would say based on evidence so far, definitely not. Rose has developed his passing as time has come along (he looks great so far this year). One problem is that our system is not a system that is designed to get the point guard tons of assists. Williams in Utah's system was designed to get just that. They are both good passers, but Williams was great in Utah.

[alucryts]

I saw this from Friedell

Thibs and Rose have talked about getting Boozer in more pick and pop sets, but up to this point, we haven't seen many of them. Boozer seems most confident in that fadeaway jumper.

Maybe I was wrong to say Thibs probably knows all of this. Why on Earth are we even thinking about making Boozer a pick and pop shooter? Is it because he lost athleticism and they don't think he can finish in the paint? Is it because they don't think the pick and roll can work with Noah in the lineup?

As it is every time Noah comes up for the screen, I can guarantee you that it is going to be a Rose drive to the hole. The only point of bringing Noah for a screen is to get him out of the paint. This offense needs a go to move that is something other than Rose. My mind is absolutely blown how that go to move isn't a Rose and Boozer pick and roll....it is insane that it isn't at this point unless there is something big we don't know.

This is such a great thread full of win. It deserves to be on the front page at all time, so full of basketball knowledge, facts, insight and analysis.

Do you expect the bulls offense to improve with a legimate pick and pop big man?

Can Mirotic be that big for us? He's shown he has range out to 3 and he's a very confident shooter.

Do you think the bulls saw his skillset and targeted him because they knew this team eventually needed a stretch big to replace boozer, or was more of a BPA?

This offense and Rose would be definitely most comfortable with a pick and pop big man. With Noah in the lineup, his defender will always be in a poor position for scoring in the paint by anyone not named Rose. Also, the best fit for Rose is a pick and pop and not a pick and roll. The pick and pop leaves the lane open for him to score and attack while giving the pop man a WIIIIIIIDE open jump shot every time. If Mirotic's skills translated, you couldn't crate a player with a better fit next to Rose on NBA 2K12. Like tsherkin and I were discussing today, the one thing Mirotic has to do better is become at least an average rebounder. If he can do this and translate his offensive skill set, you couldn't create a more perfect fit. I couldn't say how or why Mirotic was targeted, but the fit is uncanny and I can't help but to imagine that had to play into the decision.

Rose has masterfully used the pick and roll this year to cause the troublesome Noah's defender to play in no man's land where Rose can drive for fouls, shoot mid range shots, shoot threes, or set up a drive and kick. His decision making is improving on the pick and roll significantly. I would say that as good as Nash, Williams, and Paul are at pick and roll play making Rose is becoming that good at the scoring half of the pick and roll. I still want to see how Rose reacts to two things. First, how does he handle the Rondo treatment. I want to see how efficient and good he can become when forced to shoot the ball. Second, I want to see how he does against Miami's super hedge. This is commonly referred to as "Lebron shutting down Rose". Lebron individually had nothing to do with shutting down Rose, it was turrible pick and roll decision making. The Heat were defending the pick and roll in a way to force Rose to become a pass first point guard.......and it worked brilliantly. I will make a thread on this soon.

[Blue Note]

Thanks for the stellar research and analysis. It's very nice to see the DWill/Booz pnr stacked up against Rose/Booz's. The play from Scenario 5 is absolutely gorgeous.

I trust that the Bulls' personnel would be extremely successful if there were deeper, less transparent picks set. Rose excels when forced to make quick, hairpin decisions, IMO. When you're setting him in forward motion toward the pick and putting more bodies into less space, it's not only better (though counterintuitive) basketball, but it also better serves Rose's and Boozer's strengths.

I do kind of see the logic of the very high pnr: in addition to setting up offensive rebounds, you give Rose more space to accelerate. But I would like to see less transparency in the sets.

Here is your second option/creator on offense this year folks:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5kaN6AIHvU[/youtube]
Doesn't this look similar to PNR scenario #4/#5? (albeit ugly here )

this example is why i said he sometimes runs too wide after the pick. he really didnt have to here

I would agree with you if I thought the Rose and Boozer pick and roll was what they were going for. In that play, the Rose and Boozer pick and roll was a diversion for the Rip and Noah pick and roll. I think that because Rose doesn't even look for Boozer on the back side of the play. Instead, he swings it around for Rip.

I agree with jl here. If it was a diversion, it wasn't much of one. I think it's actually perfectly illustrative of what you're talking about: Rose is stepping away from the hoop when the pick is set, seemingly already ready to swing the ball to Deng. I like Rip/Noah running the pnr, but Boozer's pick seemed pointless.

[Jimako10]

I saw this from Friedell

Thibs and Rose have talked about getting Boozer in more pick and pop sets, but up to this point, we haven't seen many of them. Boozer seems most confident in that fadeaway jumper.

Maybe I was wrong to say Thibs probably knows all of this. Why on Earth are we even thinking about making Boozer a pick and pop shooter? Is it because he lost athleticism and they don't think he can finish in the paint? Is it because they don't think the pick and roll can work with Noah in the lineup?

As it is every time Noah comes up for the screen, I can guarantee you that it is going to be a Rose drive to the hole. The only point of bringing Noah for a screen is to get him out of the paint. This offense needs a go to move that is something other than Rose. My mind is absolutely blown how that go to move isn't a Rose and Boozer pick and roll....it is insane that it isn't at this point unless there is something big we don't know.

This is such a great thread full of win. It deserves to be on the front page at all time, so full of basketball knowledge, facts, insight and analysis.

Do you expect the bulls offense to improve with a legimate pick and pop big man?

Can Mirotic be that big for us? He's shown he has range out to 3 and he's a very confident shooter.

Do you think the bulls saw his skillset and targeted him because they knew this team eventually needed a stretch big to replace boozer, or was more of a BPA?

This offense and Rose would be definitely most comfortable with a pick and pop big man. With Noah in the lineup, his defender will always be in a poor position for scoring in the paint by anyone not named Rose. Also, the best fit for Rose is a pick and pop and not a pick and roll. The pick and pop leaves the lane open for him to score and attack while giving the pop man a WIIIIIIIDE open jump shot every time. If Mirotic's skills translated, you couldn't crate a player with a better fit next to Rose on NBA 2K12. Like tsherkin and I were discussing today, the one thing Mirotic has to do better is become at least an average rebounder. If he can do this and translate his offensive skill set, you couldn't create a more perfect fit. I couldn't say how or why Mirotic was targeted, but the fit is uncanny and I can't help but to imagine that had to play into the decision.

Rose has masterfully used the pick and roll this year to cause the troublesome Noah's defender to play in no man's land where Rose can drive for fouls, shoot mid range shots, shoot threes, or set up a drive and kick. His decision making is improving on the pick and roll significantly. I would say that as good as Nash, Williams, and Paul are at pick and roll play making Rose is becoming that good at the scoring half of the pick and roll. I still want to see how Rose reacts to two things. First, how does he handle the Rondo treatment. I want to see how efficient and good he can become when forced to shoot the ball. Second, I want to see how he does against Miami's super hedge. This is commonly referred to as "Lebron shutting down Rose". Lebron individually had nothing to do with shutting down Rose, it was turrible pick and roll decision making. The Heat were defending the pick and roll in a way to force Rose to become a pass first point guard.......and it worked brilliantly. I will make a thread on this soon.[/quote]

Solid point, even the other day Ricky Rubio was being guarded by Lebron and Rubio was clownin him with his pick and roll passing.

[rtblues]

Bravo! Well done...!
FORWARD: Thibs....

[RatherUnique]

This. You see this is why I come to RealGm.

Excellent post, sir.

Thank you.

[tsherkin]

Heh, this is why I come to RealGM, too. You have to dig for it sometimes, but once in a while, someone drops one of these on the forums and it changes everything about how you approach the game. Great read.

[EastBayFJ]

A few things :

1. I'm down with Bluenote's theory re : the Bulls high pick and roll more likely being about greater space to drive and offensive rebounding capacity. I will add something further - Could be that Derrick also needs that extra space setting for his vision . Maybe a tighter packing impacts his decision making ( and therefore his effectiveness ) as a point ?


2. I disagree in something so absolute , to say , that Derrick and the team need pick and pop and not pick and roll. Would it not be more logical to conclude that it would be nice to have a better pick and pop type option and run both ? In this regard ....I'm kind of interested in Jason Smith and Ryan Andersen as specialists. Utah made pop and roll options work a treat with Okur and Boozer


3. It drives me nuts the number of times I see Noah slip the screen rolling through the key - with his hand up and calling for it - and where Derrick continually ignores the option . Jo has power dribble capacity and athleticism to finish ( if not the strength - and therefore the respect from officials to finish in traffic ) - but , he is a fast ( and quality ) decision maker and therefore a very good interior passer. Derrick doesn't recognize/ react to this as well as he could - and I reckon our offense is the poorer for it

[JohnnyTapwater]

Quite possibly the best basketball thread ever...

Thank you to all involved.

[tsherkin]

A few things :

1. I'm down with Bluenote's theory re : the Bulls high pick and roll more likely being about greater space to drive and offensive rebounding capacity. I will add something further - Could be that Derrick also needs that extra space setting for his vision . Maybe a tighter packing impacts his decision making ( and therefore his effectiveness ) as a point ?

Is it an issue of vision or an issue of trust? It was noted before that he struggled mightily to hit the wide-open roll-man during the Miami series and that surely had nothing to do with spacing affecting his vision. Might it be that he, like a LOT of really good scorers, trusts himself a lot more than his teammates? If you look at Boozer's performance last year, and even thus far this season, he's been 7-11% worse on his long jumpers (so those pop jumpers) than he'd been in Utah.

Intriguingly, he's been comparably effective when he's been able to shoot from 10-15 feet, so right around the foul line... which meshes very well with the notion advanced that allowing the ball-handler to drag his defender into the screen is a more effective option.

But I can imagine Rose watching Boozer loft brick after brick (he shot 37% FG on long 2s last year, 33% so far this season), he became much more hesistant to send it over to the open roll-man versus taking the shot himself. Jordan had the issue, Kobe had the issue... it's exceedingly common in talented perimeter scorers.

Thoughts/comments?

2. I disagree in something so absolute , to say , that Derrick and the team need pick and pop and not pick and roll.

The pop is a necessary play for any team to offer a different look to the defense. They have effective roll-men, they don't need a replacement there. They need to gameplan to open up the interior a little more to enable the roll, though, that much is clear. Or, they need to do something else with the offense.

Interestingly, pick-and-rolls only represent around 14% of Chicago's possessions so far this season. Spot-ups and transition action represent something like 35% of their possessions, far more important... and as a result, Chicago is rocking 110 points per possession and is the 2nd-best offense in the league so far despite a lot of guys really not performing all that well offensively yet.

Perhaps Thibs was listening after all and has seen fit to alter the Bulls' approach to offense.

Jo ...is a fast ( and quality ) decision maker and therefore a very good interior passer.

The number of times I've seen him hesitate makes me leery of agreeing with that statement. I think it might be more accurate to say WHEN he acts decisively, he is a very good interior passer and useful tool as the screener, but he's a bit inconsistent in that respect, especially when he gets left open around the elbow or in the top half of the circle above the foul line.

Derrick doesn't recognize/ react to this as well as he could - and I reckon our offense is the poorer for it

Yep, Rose's pick-and-roll decision-making isn't elite. That's probably why the play represents a lower proportion of Chicago's possesesions than it does on a lot of other teams. Guys like Paul, Deron, Nash and others spam the play because they know how to exploit it in one way or another, as alu did an excellent job of showing (particularly with the Utah-Boozer discussions).

Rose is, as a result of AAU ball and playing under Calipari, particularly effective at dribble-drive action. He's learning, he's developing, he's one of those players you come to expect to add at least minor wrinkles to their game every off-season; the mark of potential greatness, if you will. The Bulls don't necessarily need him to develop THAT much as a PnR player. It would be useful, they are the most efficient plays Chicago runs, but they have a lot of different weapons, especially once Rip gets together. It might be interesting to see what happens when they get Rip going, because then Rose can just learn patience at the top of the circle and then hitting Rip as he comes off of screens, then variations thereof where he penetrates and hits Rip as he comes over the top behind him.

[IamSam]

This thread is too awesome to let it die!!

[FORMIDABULLS]

This thread is an awesome read for a non X & O guy like me.

Didn't they say PG is the most difficult position to learn? It's great that Rose is working on this part of his game and am I understanding right that a postup game will allow Rose to back his defender down closer to the free throw line so he can initiate a pnr from there?

It was 1.7% which landed the Bulls the no. 1 pick but surely the percentage is even lower that a guy like Rose is there to be the picked.

[punkmodafunk]

guys last year there was a game against the Atlanta Hawks where the pick n roll with Rose and Boozer was just amazing... I don't know if anyone remembers but I'm telling you, it's worth watching

[Spimothy Leary]

Derrick draws double teams when he steps off of the bus . All he has to do is develop chemistry with what he has to optimize what happens when he is doubled.

Self-admittedly, his IQ isn't that high. For as unselfish as he is, he really doesn't have a great understanding about how to mesh his game with those around him.

Let me use some football terminology. I see too much "one or the other," where each play really has only one option for a shot. Rather, I want to see plays that have a heirarchy of options, where he can go through his progression of checkdowns, and react to what the defense is doing. I mean his pure instincts are good, especially when he takes on the defense by himself. But his ability to read and react could improve a lot.

EDIT: The offense just doesn't always flow properly. If one thing doesn't work, then there's a stall (occasionally a jump pass flirting with disaster), and then back out and start over. By that time, the shot clock is winding down and we need a bail out shot.

great thread, wonderful read BTW, thanks for sharing

i tend to agree with the above here, and I think part of this is the lack of chemistry and time with teammates, significant roster turnovers, coaching change (defensive coach to boot) and a lot of other factors.

Rose hasn't had the opportunity to learn "with" (as opposed to "from" a great PG, or even a great SG, he was pretty much the best player on his team when he showed up here. We're blessed with a great coach but he's not a great offensive coach, actually boozer is probably the most qualified P&R guy on the team, including the coaches.

With time, we will develop chemistry, I can only assume that Thibs is aware of this and has staff working hard on development and improving efficiency. When we wonder if Rose is at his peak, well, he might be physically but he's not there mentally yet, when he is... watch out !

[alucryts]

I have seen Rose hitting Boozer a LOT better on the pick and roll in the last 2 games. I haven't re-watched game film for it, but on the initial pass through the game I saw the Bulls running Scenario 2. Except, Rose waited until Boozer was already inside the free throw line to hit him on the "roll". Boozer has missed of few of these gimmes, but they are among the best looks he has ever gotten as a roll man while on the Bulls. The Bulls also actually tried a scenario 5 the other day. The defense doubled Rose, but they "doubled" Rose. Both defenders sunk back into the lane to double Boozer while giving the illusion that they were doubling Rose. Rose had a wide open shot because of this, be he tried the pass and it was a turnover. I've seen much improved pick and roll play the last couple of games here.

[RatherUnique]

Yea. they ran scenario 2 @ 5:26 in the first and like you said, Rose waited until Booz was inside the FT line to hit him & he got an easy dunk.

They ran scenario 3 @ 6:35 in the 2nd & Booz got a layup.

You've really opened my eyes alucryts. Thanks again.

[panthermark]

Fantastic thread....will read again... (not being sarcastic.....will come back and read it again just to make sure I catch any details I missed the first time).

[alucryts]

Yea. they ran scenario 2 @ 5:26 in the first and like you said, Rose waited until Booz was inside the FT line to hit him & he got an easy dunk.

They ran scenario 3 @ 6:35 in the 2nd & Booz got a layup.

You've really opened my eyes alucryts. Thanks again.

It opened my eyes up too . They DO seem to be running more of these pick and rolls, and the ones that they are running in the 2nd scenario are run a lot more efficiently by waiting until Boozer crosses the free throw line making it as effective as the 3rd scenario (and no longer dumb ).