2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects

[ManualRam]

cant find any official measurements (figured team usa would have some), but my guess is a 7'4-5 wingspan

first decent mix of meyers illini footage.
its more than just dunks and blocks.
dont agree with all the commentary, but theres more in depth footage of individual aspects of his game in this profile here
http://swishscout.com/?page_id=7806
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LWNpaPEw6o[/youtube]

[Ruzious]

I'll be brutally honest even if this makes me look foolish (moreso than usual). I know Leonard's got tremendous pure talent and skills, but there's just something intangible about him - that I can't define - that rubs me the wrong way about him and makes me think he's not going to be a winning NBA player. He just seems to be too much of a preppie type kid. Maybe I'm being racist, but that's my gut feeling about the kid.

[ManualRam]

Um ok. How will his preppiness affect his game or his team?
On the court he's smart and is an unselfish, willing passer.

[Dr Positivity]

Honestly if he wasn't white I think his hype/talk would be top 5 or 6 in this class if not higher. He's otherwise exactly the type of prospect that if anything gets overrated, let alone underrated. He's extremely Ford and Bilas workouts and wingspan friendly and those guys seem to do very well for right reasons or wrong (in this case, likely right)

I don't think this lasts long. With the history of athletic, legit 7 footers who can block shots and rebound, let alone ones who can do things offensively, I see little reason with the history of how these scouting consensi go that a player with his package wouldn't get jacked up in hype as much as anyone but Davis and Drummond. It might end up being "the big 3" with Davis, Drummond and Leonard. All athletic big men with anchor defensive potential which is what drafting GMs lose their sh*t over more often than not far than guys like PJIII (defensive enigma issues), Lamb and Sullinger (bound to be underrated due to skill over freakish athleticism), Barnes and MKG (not really dynamic offensively)

[boogie-reke]

Honestly if he wasn't white I think his hype/talk would be top 5 or 6 in this class if not higher.

[Ruzious]

Um ok. How will his preppiness affect his game or his team?
On the court he's smart and is an unselfish, willing passer.

And I'm sure he's got a pressed spotless uniform. It has to do with a perceived lack of toughness.

C'mon preppie. Get in the game.

[ManualRam]

Um ok. How will his preppiness affect his game or his team?
On the court he's smart and is an unselfish, willing passer.

And I'm sure he's got a pressed spotless uniform. It has to do with a perceived lack of toughness.

C'mon preppie. Get in the game.

you couldve just said that he's soft because he's a white boy.
that wouldve been more direct.

[Ruzious]

Um ok. How will his preppiness affect his game or his team?
On the court he's smart and is an unselfish, willing passer.

And I'm sure he's got a pressed spotless uniform. It has to do with a perceived lack of toughness.

C'mon preppie. Get in the game.

you couldve just said that he's soft because he's a white boy.
that wouldve been more direct.

Ya know what, you don't have to critique every post I make. And you don't have to respond to this post. It's really okay to let someone else have the last word.

[hello_melo]

Tim Duncan? Really?

Smart? Did you guys not see the end of the Minnesota game? Did anybody even realize he took the court against Purdue?

A center capable of Top 5 pick status doesn't play on a bad college team. He locks down the rim from start to finish, and his team wins games. Leonard's impact on his team isn't near what it ought to be, and his team flat out stinks.

He certainly has flashes, but especially when it comes to altering shots and rebounding he is well behind where he ought to be.

People comparing him to Tim Duncan should be ashamed of themselves, and will be if he doesn't make massive improvements over the next 2 months.

[ManualRam]

Tim Duncan? Really?

Smart? Did you guys not see the end of the Minnesota game? Did anybody even realize he took the court against Purdue?

A center capable of Top 5 pick status doesn't play on a bad college team. He locks down the rim from start to finish, and his team wins games. Leonard's impact on his team isn't near what it ought to be, and his team flat out stinks.

He certainly has flashes, but especially when it comes to altering shots and rebounding he is well behind where he ought to be.

People comparing him to Tim Duncan should be ashamed of themselves, and will be if he doesn't make massive improvements over the next 2 months.

yep, he's a smart player.
yes i saw the end of the minnesota game. he was still huge throughout that game. hit the FTs to send it into OT, and despite the sloppy play in the extra frames (which is expected btw in double OT) he hit the game sealing bucket.

i saw the purdue game as well. purdue had a great gameplan. they sagged off the shooters, fronted the post and brought the quick weak side double. the illini couldnt even make an entry pass. a center cant be in a position to make a play with the ball if he doesnt touch it and purdue made sure of that.

lastly, the illini dont flat out stink. they provided mizzou with their stiffest test this yr and have a good win over ranked gonzaga.
meyers isnt a young TD or even supposed to be a young TD. he wasnt supposed to be someone that the illini was so reliant on this yr. they're reliant on him because of the huge jump physically and skill-wise he's made from yr one to yr two, which speaks to his rapid rate of progression. that is a great sign for a prospect. the rest of the intrigue surrounding meyers exists because he has great tools (nh).

[hello_melo]

How on earth can a Top 5 NBA C prospect only get 6 rebounds against Purdue's front line? Anthony Davis is looking like the NPOY and he's barely gotten a post entry pass all season, just doing his work on the glass!

How did Purdue shoot 16 of 27 from 3 with an elite NBA C prospect protecting the rim?

[ManualRam]

How on earth can a Top 5 NBA C prospect only get 6 rebounds against Purdue's front line? Anthony Davis is looking like the NPOY and he's barely gotten a post entry pass all season, just doing his work on the glass!

How did Purdue shoot 16 of 27 from 3 with an elite NBA C prospect protecting the rim?

purdue successfully took leonard out. i give their team and coach credit. it was blow out 5 minutes into the 2nd half.

davis and leonard are used differently by their teams. UK doesnt even post up AD. they just sit him in the short corner looking for lobs and O-Reb opportunities while they run their dribble drive.

you're latter question is just stupid. what does rim protection have to do with made 3's?

keep reachin though.

[hello_melo]

Well they obviously weren't 16-27 from 3, they were 16-27 from 2. Typing mistake on my part.

And I'm not the one reaching. It is one thing to claim the guy has upside and can develop into a lottery pick, another thing entirely to call him Top 5 this year and compare him to Duncan/Gasol. That's just absurd, and against those insane expectations his impact on the game isn't anywhere near where it needs to be.

On the other hand, you are really, really reaching to cover up Leonard's deficiencies. Absolutely no way the guy should only get 6 boards against that front line, and his decision making down the stretch in the Minnesota game was horrendous - even if he did come back and hit the big FT's.

[ManualRam]

Well they obviously weren't 16-27 from 3, they were 16-27 from 2. Typing mistake on my part.

And I'm not the one reaching. It is one thing to claim the guy has upside and can develop into a lottery pick, another thing entirely to call him Top 5 this year and compare him to Duncan/Gasol. That's just absurd, and against those insane expectations his impact on the game isn't anywhere near where it needs to be.

On the other hand, you are really, really reaching to cover up Leonard's deficiencies. Absolutely no way the guy should only get 6 boards against that front line, and his decision making down the stretch in the Minnesota game was horrendous - even if he did come back and hit the big FT's.

wow. if you're really going to rely on 1 game to point out a player's deficiencies, i'd like to see you break down andre drummond. go ahead, try it. break down his performance vs USF and what it entails as far as his pro prospects are concerned. how about perry jones? him vs arnett moultrie was a nice matchup, what happened to him there and what does it mean for him in the future?

prospects are about tools, skills, talent, intangibles and potential. meyers has great tools, shows that he has skill (which is more than you can say about most 7' prospects his age), has talent that cannot be taught, shows that he's competitive and can think the game through. all that adds up to him having great potential. you think gasol looked amazing night in night out as a 19 y/o? you can nitpick any individual games all you want, but those aspects of his game still exist. those aspects still make him a great prospect.

we're not saying leonard is definitely going to become this or that. we're saying who his game reminds us of at this stage of his development. if you've read all my posts about meyers in this thread and in the meyers thread in this sub-forum, you'll see that i HAVE highlighted what i think are his deficiencies as well.

to me, he reminds me of a young gasol becasue he has a good feel for the game, can pass out of the post, is skilled enough to be used as a hub of an offense, has nice touch around the rim and his jumper out to mid-range, he runs the floor well, but he can be out-muscled and pushed off the block because of his lack of lower body strength. he can get man-handled in the post AND for rebounding position. i also made sure to note that he DOES lack defensive awareness/reflexes and despite his physical tools cannot be considered a paint protector at this point.
go ahead and look at my previous posts if you want. its all there.

[hello_melo]

I most certainly am not using one game as the basis for what I am saying. I've watched him in every important game he's played this year, and the Purdue game is just the most recent example of what I am referring to.

You might notice my original post earlier this morning where I made no attempt to attack your opinion of Meyers Leonard, but instead pointed out that comparing him to Tim Duncan is insane. If you look hard, you can probably find the point where I wrote "Tim Duncan? Really?"

At which point, you strongly disagreed with me.

So if earlier in the thread you acknowledged that the guy struggles with physical play and isn't comparable to Tim Duncan, I have no idea why on earth you decided to disagree with me in the first place.

[hello_melo]

As far as Drummond, I don't believe Leonard is even remotely the type of player that will be able to get by on physical superiority at the NBA level. He's very skilled and will be a nice piece if he learns where he fits in, but it starts with his feel for the game and I just don't see that yet. He's a thinker, not a doer - especially on defense and in most physical situations.

Drummond absolutely will be able to get by, so he gets a longer leash. But if come March he is still struggling with the basics like he is right now, it will be a major problem and certainly worth mentioning.

As for Jones, the guy is terrible right now - if he plays the way he has since the BYU game I don't believe he will be in contention for a Top 5 pick.

IMO, every prospect out there should be watching tape of Anthony Davis and copy his every move. Guy could start for a lot of NBA teams tomorrow, not just because of his natural tools but because he understands his role and and contributes to winning.

Meyers Leonard is 2 years away from contributing to an NBA team, so is Perry Jones, and lord knows when or if Drummond turns it up a notch.

[teamjosh04]

I'd compare him to Tyson Chandler. He has incredible size and his leaping ability is ridiculous for a guy his size. Watching him pull down a board is beautiful. He should turn into a tremendous rebounder, although right now he is mainly relying on his pure physical gifts (which alone makes him pretty damn good on the glass).

Hes got nice touch at the line and has shown flashes of potential on offense. I dont think its likely he will become a top option offensively due to his average awareness and reactions along with his demeanor, but he can be efficient and do more than just putbacks.

The biggest problem I have with him at this stage is how soft he is. He has the body type of a player who can turn into an enforcer, but he appears to be quite wimpy. He gets pushed around with ease. He got hit in the head in the game against Purdue and ran around with his hand on his head for a few possessions. Its just an example, but his body language doesnt look good.

Along with Tyson, I also see some similarities to Darko. I think Darko is his floor. I have a hard time not seeing Meyers being a good defensive player in the NBA, so he should at least become a starter. With his athleticism and size, the potential for even more is what should guarantee him a lottery selection.

[Dr Positivity]

I most certainly am not using one game as the basis for what I am saying. I've watched him in every important game he's played this year, and the Purdue game is just the most recent example of what I am referring to.

You might notice my original post earlier this morning where I made no attempt to attack your opinion of Meyers Leonard, but instead pointed out that comparing him to Tim Duncan is insane. If you look hard, you can probably find the point where I wrote "Tim Duncan? Really?"

At which point, you strongly disagreed with me.

So if earlier in the thread you acknowledged that the guy struggles with physical play and isn't comparable to Tim Duncan, I have no idea why on earth you decided to disagree with me in the first place.

MR was the one disagreeing with the guy who put up the TD comparison

[ManualRam]

I most certainly am not using one game as the basis for what I am saying. I've watched him in every important game he's played this year, and the Purdue game is just the most recent example of what I am referring to.

You might notice my original post earlier this morning where I made no attempt to attack your opinion of Meyers Leonard, but instead pointed out that comparing him to Tim Duncan is insane. If you look hard, you can probably find the point where I wrote "Tim Duncan? Really?"

At which point, you strongly disagreed with me.

So if earlier in the thread you acknowledged that the guy struggles with physical play and isn't comparable to Tim Duncan, I have no idea why on earth you decided to disagree with me in the first place.

that's not the part i disagreed with. i was the one who originally disagreed with the TD comparison. i disagreed with you questioning his basketball intelligence and saying that he was just playing on a bad team. that if he really was a great prospect he'd be locking down the paint, etc.

he is a smart basketball player. a player with his level of experience doesnt make the passes he does, has the recognition he has offensively or have the ability in the post to utilize counters. he shows glimpses of advanced knowledge on that end of the floor, knowledge that some starting post players in the NBA dont display.

the illini are not a bad team. they're 12-3 likely tournament team who beat gonzaga and took mizzou down to the wire.

not every prospect can be like davis. that's why he is at the top of many big boards. doesnt mean that leonard isnt a lotto pick or cant conceivably be a top 5. sullinger's projected top 5, how does he project defensively? kanter went top 5, how does he project defensively? i've already noted that meyers has defensive deficiencies, mainly his awareness. but he's shown he's a quick study and awareness can improve in time, especially if the player is a good learner. he certainly has the physical tools to be a good defender down the road.

[peachbucket]

I most certainly am not using one game as the basis for what I am saying. I've watched him in every important game he's played this year, and the Purdue game is just the most recent example of what I am referring to.

You might notice my original post earlier this morning where I made no attempt to attack your opinion of Meyers Leonard, but instead pointed out that comparing him to Tim Duncan is insane. If you look hard, you can probably find the point where I wrote "Tim Duncan? Really?"

At which point, you strongly disagreed with me.

So if earlier in the thread you acknowledged that the guy struggles with physical play and isn't comparable to Tim Duncan, I have no idea why on earth you decided to disagree with me in the first place.

that's not the part i disagreed with. i was the one who originally disagreed with the TD comparison. i disagreed with you questioning his basketball intelligence and saying that he was just playing on a bad team. that if he really was a great prospect he'd be locking down the paint, etc.

he is a smart basketball player. a player with his level of experience doesnt make the passes he does, has the recognition he has offensively or have the ability in the post to utilize counters. he shows glimpses of advanced knowledge on that end of the floor, knowledge that some starting post players in the NBA dont display.

the illini are not a bad team. they're 12-3 likely tournament team who beat gonzaga and took mizzou down to the wire.

not every prospect can be like davis. that's why he is at the top of many big boards. doesnt mean that leonard isnt a lotto pick or cant conceivably be a top 5. sullinger's projected top 5, how does he project defensively? kanter went top 5, how does he project defensively? i've already noted that meyers has defensive deficiencies, mainly his awareness. but he's shown he's a quick study and awareness can improve in time, especially if the player is a good learner. he certainly has the physical tools to be a good defender down the road.

Ok, this is getting a bit ridiculous...let me spell it out for you hello_melo. I am not saying that Meyers Leonard is the same player as Tim Duncan now, five years ago, or when Tim Duncan was drafted as a senior. We will probably never see a big enter the NBA that is as polished and as ready as Tim Duncan was...that is because if you are a big with that kind of talent you will always be drafted in the high lottery years before you have a chance to put it all together. It also takes much longer for bigs to develop now than it did 20 years ago because of the increased physical nature of the game and the complexity of defensive schemes.

So because it's not 1987, we are now forced to evauluate freshman and sophmores not on their PRODUCTION, but on their POTENTIAL. Anyone can look at a player who averages 24 pts 14 boards and 6 blocks a game in a major conference and say that he is NEXT. Unfortuantely, that's not very useful because that animal is almost extinct. The latter, is a bit more difficult to do and requires knowledge, in depth analysis, and a bit of imagination...and is even more difficult for a back to the basket player because the development process is so much longer and the skillset required is so rare. How many players have a consistent back to the basket game in the NBA today? You can count them on one hand.

Now lets tackle the question again. Does Leonard project to Tim Duncan in the future? Obviously, that would be a foolish statement considering that Tim Duncan is arguably the best power forward of all time. You can never project that. Tim Duncan did not project to be Tim Duncan when he came out...neither did Jordan, Olajuwon, or Kobe Bryant. To become one of the all time greats aside from extreme talent, you also need to completely maximize your potential through hard work and be fortunate enough to avoid major injuries...things that are impossible to predict. When I am comparing Meyers to Duncan I am talking about the 'type' of rare and unique qualities that Meyers possesses that with time can translate to a perenial back to the basket NBA all star.

Length (Duncan's defining physical attribute, probably a 9' 6" standing reach)...check.
Athleticism (edge goes to Leonard)...check.
Big Strong Body (a must for a back to the basket game)...Leonard still needs to fill his monster frame...in a few years check.
Superb passing ability for a big...check.
Great touch around the basket...check.
Good midrange game and ability to hit freethrows...check (edge goes to Leonard).
Basketball iq...check.
Outstanding footwork...Leonard has flashed enough for me to say that he has the dexterity to get this with time....check.
Soft hands...check.

Now, if you want to debate me on the fact that I think Leonard will be a top 5 pick and can become one of the premier centers in the NBA 4 years down the road (a Pau Gasol type player), then by all means I'm willing to listen (although probably better to do this in the Meyers Leonard thread)...and please try to avoid words like 'insane', especially when you don't understand how 'a top pick can only get 6 rebounds in one game'.