RealGM Top 100 #91

[penbeast0]

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days -- Please vote and nominate

NOTE: PEOPLE HAVE NOT BEEN POSTING DISCUSSION FOR THEIR CHOICES RECENTLY. LISTS WITHOUT DISCUSSION WILL NOT BE COUNTED IN THE FINALS VOTE

Dave DeBusschere

Hall of Fame 1983
1x All-NBA 2nd Team
2x NBA Champion
6x All-Defense 1st Team
8x All-Star

Newest addition: Joe Dumars

Hall of Fame 2006
1x All-NBA 2nd Team
2x All-NBA 3rd Team
4x All-Defense 1st team
1x All-Defense 2nd team
Finals MVP 1989
2x NBA Champion
6x All-Star

Tim Hardaway

1x 1st Team All-NBA
3x 2nd Team All-NBA
1x 3rd Team All-NBA
5x All-Star

Carmelo Anthony

1x All-NBA 2nd
3x All-NBA 3rd
4x All-Star


Gus Williams

1x 1st team All-NBA
1x 2nd team All-NBA
NBA Champion 1979
2x All-Star

Bill Laimbeer

2x NBA Champion
4x All-Star


Brad Daugherty

1x NBA 3rd Team
5x All-Star


Jerry Lucas

3x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
1 NBA Championship 1973
Rookie of the Year 1964
7x All-Star


NOTE: PEOPLE HAVE NOT BEEN POSTING DISCUSSION FOR THEIR CHOICES RECENTLY. LISTS WITHOUT DISCUSSION WILL NOT BE COUNTED IN THE FINALS VOTE

[penbeast0]

VOTE:
The best offensive numbers belong to Jerry Lucas – He scores at a rate close to any of the other prime scorers except Carmelo and with excellent efficiency as a stretch big which Dirk has showed is very valuable offensively. In addition he provides rebounding at a level few other players in NBA history have matched (and none of those here) with good passing skills as well. Hardaway does bring playmaking but his inefficiency is a weakness here. Carmelo is the only one that has appreciably more offensive firepower than Lucas but his firepower has not translated as of yet into team success where Lucas was one of two constants on the offensively great Royals teams.

Defensively, Dumars, DeBusschere, and Laimbeer stand out but DeBusschere and Laimbeer are well behind the other two offensively. Dumars has more playoff chops.

Lucas v. Dumars . . . I think Lucas is one of those guys who you may not like much. Like Michael Jordan or Wilt, he was focused on his own stats and unlike them, he wasn’t a good defender, but his numbers are so much more dominant than any of his competition here, I think you have to accept his limitations and vote him in. He’s Kevin Love with a long prime of years like last year – that’s a HOF player.

[penbeast0]

None of the guards stand out much with Chris Mullin being the most impressive, at least offensively. Nor do any of the centers leap forward; Amare being my favorite over the always injured Yao Ming or 50s star Neil Johnston but again, purely an offensive player.

The forwards are stronger -- Shawn Marion had a great two way game with a monster 2006 season. Yes, he benefitted from playing with Steve Nash, as players like Worthy and McHale benefitted from playing with Magic and Bird but he has several other 20+PER seasons without Nash making up for lower efficiency (though still the best efficiency among Phoenix starters) with extra pts/reb. Terry Cummings is also in the running with offensive seasons at Marion's level though not quite up to his level defensively but just a little behind.

NOMINATE Shawn Marion

[ThaRegul8r]

Lucas v. Dumars . . . I think Lucas is one of those guys who you may not like much. Like Michael Jordan or Wilt, he was focused on his own stats and unlike them, he wasn’t a good defender, but his numbers are so much more dominant than any of his competition here, I think you have to accept his limitations and vote him in. He’s Kevin Love with a long prime of years like last year – that’s a HOF player.

Eh, I'm not big on guys who are focused on their own stats. As far as having the best offensive numbers, I would expect the numbers to be there if his statistics were his focus in the first place. It would be a fail if a guy focused on his stats and still didn't accumulate impressive numbers. And as I look beyond numbers, those alone aren't enough anyway, especially if it was something he focused on, which means he would inflate them as much as he could. So Lucas is out for me.

[penbeast0]

Where did you vote Jordan, who was quite as focused on his individual stats as any player in my recent memory (outside of a couple of "Triple Double" fools)?

[ThaRegul8r]

Where did you vote Jordan, who was quite as focused on his individual stats as any player in my recent memory (outside of a couple of "Triple Double" fools)?

Actually... I didn't.

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Gus Williams

Nominate: Amar'e Stoudemire

I can't think of anything else to say. I've voted for these two in the last few threads. I'm willing to change from Amar'e though.

Just to defend Gus a little bit...he was on successful teams, that apparently were defense-first teams. Defense is "how they won." Some see this as a glaring back mark on a player- that he's primarily just an offensive piece on a successful team that yields it's success through elite defense with average offense. It's the same argument used against Isiah Thomas and Derrick Rose.

I think it's a **** argument. Gus, Isiah, and Derrick were the home run-hitters on offense, the guys who create and allow their teams to A.) play that defensive style and/or B.) give enough offense to score more than the other team.

You still need to score more points than the other team. If Gus the Lynchpin was replaced by an average guard, Seattle is much less successful. DJ and SIkma likely can't elevate that team to strong defensive ratings if they need to anchor the offense, and they'd lose out offensively as well. You're looking at a team in the bottom quarter of the league without Gus. DJ was a solid offensive player- a great fit on Boston later in his career, when he was basically the fourth option, sometimes the fifth option- but he could never do the important function that Gus performed.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Gus Williams

Nominate Lou Hudson

These have been my votes for the last few votes as well. I consider them both pretty valuable tier 2 star offensive players. Gus for breaking down the defense and being able to pass out of it/running the fastbreak. Lou for being the outside shooter and floor spacer and a good fit with most teams. I would want both of these guys from an offensive function standpoint, a lot.

[Doctor MJ]

Vote: Gus Williams

Nominate: Amar'e Stoudemire

I can't think of anything else to say. I've voted for these two in the last few threads. I'm willing to change from Amar'e though.

Just to defend Gus a little bit...he was on successful teams, that apparently were defense-first teams. Defense is "how they won." Some see this as a glaring back mark on a player- that he's primarily just an offensive piece on a successful team that yields it's success through elite defense with average offense. It's the same argument used against Isiah Thomas and Derrick Rose.

I think it's a **** argument. Gus, Isiah, and Derrick were the home run-hitters on offense, the guys who create and allow their teams to A.) play that defensive style and/or B.) give enough offense to score more than the other team.

You still need to score more points than the other team. If Gus the Lynchpin was replaced by an average guard, Seattle is much less successful. DJ and SIkma likely can't elevate that team to strong defensive ratings if they need to anchor the offense, and they'd lose out offensively as well. You're looking at a team in the bottom quarter of the league without Gus. DJ was a solid offensive player- a great fit on Boston later in his career, when he was basically the fourth option, sometimes the fifth option- but he could never do the important function that Gus performed.

But when Seattle was good, Gus wasn't even the guy typically consider the star of his backcourt. That was DJ. I mean, it's fine to disagree with contemporary observers, but this isn't a case where 30 years after the fact people are saying Gus couldn't have been a superstar because he was on a defensive team. Dude only made all-star twice, and I've never heard anyone talk about him as if he should get consideration for the HOF (which DJ is in).

[Doctor MJ]

I'll go with

Vote: Joe Dumars

A dude who can get you 20 points, is good teammate willing to do it in the flow, and also be the perimeter spearhead of a great defense. Good longevity, and an all-star for quite a few years.

Nominate: Cliff Hagan

Will stick with Hagan for now. Admittedly hard to compare him with more modern players.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote: Gus Williams

Nominate: Amar'e Stoudemire

I can't think of anything else to say. I've voted for these two in the last few threads. I'm willing to change from Amar'e though.

Just to defend Gus a little bit...he was on successful teams, that apparently were defense-first teams. Defense is "how they won." Some see this as a glaring back mark on a player- that he's primarily just an offensive piece on a successful team that yields it's success through elite defense with average offense. It's the same argument used against Isiah Thomas and Derrick Rose.

I think it's a **** argument. Gus, Isiah, and Derrick were the home run-hitters on offense, the guys who create and allow their teams to A.) play that defensive style and/or B.) give enough offense to score more than the other team.

You still need to score more points than the other team. If Gus the Lynchpin was replaced by an average guard, Seattle is much less successful. DJ and SIkma likely can't elevate that team to strong defensive ratings if they need to anchor the offense, and they'd lose out offensively as well. You're looking at a team in the bottom quarter of the league without Gus. DJ was a solid offensive player- a great fit on Boston later in his career, when he was basically the fourth option, sometimes the fifth option- but he could never do the important function that Gus performed.

But when Seattle was good, Gus wasn't even the guy typically consider the star of his backcourt. That was DJ. I mean, it's fine to disagree with contemporary observers, but this isn't a case where 30 years after the fact people are saying Gus couldn't have been a superstar because he was on a defensive team. Dude only made all-star twice, and I've never heard anyone talk about him as if he should get consideration for the HOF (which DJ is in).

Both Gus and DJ have a 1st team All-NBA and a 2nd team, and identically have 5th and 8th place MVP finishes. In 82 Gus was probably the most all around recognized guard after he and Gervin made 1st team All-NBA and Magic 2nd, and finishing the highest in MVP of the trio at 5th. DJ is more recognized from 79-81 but in 82 the pendulum swings as it is Gus who finishes with the high All-NBA and MVP votes while DJ doesn't, despite having the best scoring season of his career. I think the fact that Gus eventually got more than enough respect for a top 100 spot makes up for missing some ASGs (when he'd have been the 3rd Sonic) early

I don't think the Sonics were any more of a superstar led team than the 04 Pistons, in both their Finals years they didn't have an All-NBA recognized player. I see DJ having more accolades early like Ben Wallace having more accolades than Billups in 04 (it's a solid comparison actually, like Gus Billups had his title/Finals years before making any All-star or All-NBA recognition, coinciding with a statistical jump). I didn't put Wallace getting more star credit early as much of a factor in determining who deserved to land higher, Billups eventually caught up anyways to be called as much of a tier 2 all-star as Wallace. I voted Wallace before him but for reasons not connected to that (mainly the rarity of defensive C dominance compared to guards carrying the play)

As players I prefer Gus' offensive game by a lot at his peak and value guard defense the least of all positions. I don't know if DJ is an offensive plus at all, he's basically a mediocore % shooter who stays on the perimeter and is a reasonable passer. In that context I clearly prefer Debusschere for his defensive impact.

DJ wouldn't be in the HOF without Boston and the sympathy of dieing early. Probably moreso the latter considering how long his case was dead. And after all, the HOF is the HOF and does dumb things, Artis Gilmore couldn't get in for 30 years and I know how you feel about that.

[lukekarts]

VOTE: Joe Dumars

Good all round player, solid and successful career with Championships (of which he was a significant contributor / Finals MVP for), and individual accolades. Good team-mate.

I'm going to abstain from nominating because honestly at this point I really can't pick anyone. Open to being swayed...

[colts18]

Is there a reason why Tommy Heinsohn has not been nominated? He won a title in every season of his career except 1.

[lukekarts]

Is there a reason why Tommy Heinsohn has not been nominated? He won a title in every season of his career except 1.

I think there's a handful of reasons:

- he played in a relatively weak era
- not many people are familiar with the non-star players of that era
- he played for Boston who were stacked and he was in no way a key player for them. (earlier, Russell, Cousy, Sharman, later Russell, Havlicek & Jones).
- if we were nominating players on that basis then a fellow Celtic - amongst others - in Jo Jo White would surely get in ahead of him.
- we're not nominating players purely on titles won and most of us don't feel he's as good as guys ahead of him.

[penbeast0]

And he didn't play much defense either.

[Doctor MJ]

Is there a reason why Tommy Heinsohn has not been nominated? He won a title in every season of his career except 1.

He was an offensive player on a team that was a complete failure on offense but one because they had the greatest defense in history due to the big man playing next to him.

Incidentally, KC Jones isn't nominated yet either.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't think the Sonics were any more of a superstar led team than the 04 Pistons, in both their Finals years they didn't have an All-NBA recognized player. I see DJ having more accolades early like Ben Wallace having more accolades than Billups in 04 (it's a solid comparison actually, like Gus Billups had his title/Finals years before making any All-star or All-NBA recognition, coinciding with a statistical jump). I didn't put Wallace getting more star credit early as much of a factor in determining who deserved to land higher, Billups eventually caught up anyways to be called as much of a tier 2 all-star as Wallace. I voted Wallace before him but for reasons not connected to that (mainly the rarity of defensive C dominance compared to guards carrying the play)

I suppose this is my real issue. This Seattle club is an ensemble cast that only won 50 games 3 times and won a title in one of the weakest years in history. And here we are adding a 3rd player to the Top 100 mix from that team (admittedly relative to my expectations), and he's someone who was only an all-star twice. It feels like we're treating this like they were the '60s Celtics, but I see them as a team barely worth mentioning.

ftr, I could go either way on Sikma & DJ. I did vote for Sikma, but I never felt terribly strongly about it. So I suppose me coming in here speaking my alarm on Gus vs DJ is maybe counterproductive. More than anything I'm just feeling a general WTF confusion.

DJ wouldn't be in the HOF without Boston and the sympathy of dieing early. Probably moreso the latter considering how long his case was dead. And after all, the HOF is the HOF and does dumb things, Artis Gilmore couldn't get in for 30 years and I know how you feel about that.

You're right that DJ wouldn't have made the Hall without his 2nd act...Gus of course had no rebirth like that, which plays into why he only made all-star twice.

That said, people were talking about DJ getting in the Hall before he died. Walton said WAY before DJ died:

"The fact that Dennis Johnson is not in the Hall of Fame is a disgrace to the sport of basketball and I am embarrassed." -- Bill Walton

If you can find anyone talking remotely like that about Gus, then I need to do a serious mea culpa.

Re: Artis. The issue with Gilmore was about a specific omission. Just obviously, the HOF people not remembering to include him in the debate when he obviously should have because he peaked in the ABA. Do you really think that's at all related to DJ vs Gus?

[ThunderDan9]

Is there a reason why Chris Mullin has not been nominated?
And not even seriously in conversation?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmguGGQz2v8
(they swept the Jazz in the first round, Mullin averaged well over 30 points)

OK, he didn't have too much playoff success. OK, his career was descending due to injuries in the middle of the 90's.
But still, for like a 5 year-span, he really was a star in the league. 5 consecutive 25 ppg+ regular seasons (with Milleresque efficency), 5 consecutive All-Star selections, All-NBA selections (even one All-NBA First Team), a member of the Dream Team.

I think, in someway we can draw a parallel with McGrady. T-Mac's career was also badly influenced by his injuries, and he never got past the first round of the playoffs. Of course, he was a player of much higher quality (this is not my point), but comparatively - despite all his deficiencies concerning his career - he was pretty well rewarded with #37. Whereas Mullin is falling off the Top100. For example, I'm convinced I would take T over C...

[ThunderDan9]

And I think, both Mullin and DJ deservedly belong to the HOF. And to the Top100. So, please nominate them, NOW.

[Doctor MJ]

I've tried to drum up support for Mullin a few times, but it hasn't taken yet.

But yeah, fantastic player. I'd love to have him on any team.