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Kevin Seraphin

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hands11
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Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#741 » by hands11 » Fri Jan 6, 2012 8:49 pm

sashae wrote:hands,

Who was the last 3-year "project" big man to succeed in the league? We hear about "projects" all the time, but I can't say I can think of anyone that actually fits into that mold. I'd say that Boris Diaw doesn't count -- the light didn't suddenly go on in his third year, he just got to play with Steve Nash.


First I said a 2-3 total window.

He is 1 year into that. I also said he needs show vast improvements in P&R D over the next 10 plus games or he won't find enough minutes to stay on the court to get better.

He needs to show a lot the first half of this year. They are six game into the season and he has only really played the last two. 14 minutes and 17 minutes.

People are so impatient. Lets talk again about KS in as a bust or not in 20 games and see where things are.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#742 » by hands11 » Fri Jan 6, 2012 8:55 pm

MJG wrote:Count me in with the bust crowd. If Seraphin played anywhere else - another team, D-League, overseas - nobody here would even know who he was. And yea, he was drafted as a project, and it's only been a year and change, but this isn't a case like with someone like McGee (also drafted as a project), where you're getting flashes of brilliance here and there to keep your interest up. Seraphin has shown pretty much nothing whatsoever. He's given no indication that he will ever be an impact player.

Basically, it's what nate said: the combination of "long-term project" and "ceiling: potential backup" is not a good one, and those are exactly the two phrases I think of when I think of Seraphin.


McGee looked totally lost on D for 3 complete years.

In year one it was comical. And some of his offensive moves where the same.

KS is going to get there quicker then McGee did. I get the sense the kid is more coachable and plays with in himself more. He knows his role better. He isn't trying to do as much as McGee was. He has been focusing on his post game since the first practice video I saw of him. Plus the team is going to be more stable for him which is a better environment to learn.

This team is working on defining roles and I believe KS already knows him.

20 more games. Then lets talk.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#743 » by sashae » Fri Jan 6, 2012 9:20 pm

JaVale is a terrible counter-example, hands. He had a PER of 17 in 15 minutes a game as a rookie, and had multiple double-doubles that season, and 15 game scores of 10 or better -- in other words, dumb mistakes or not he passed the eye test.

KSera had /one/ game score over 10 last season, and had a PER of 7. Again, name one project big man that actually worked out, that looked as atrocious as Seraphin did last year.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#744 » by hands11 » Fri Jan 6, 2012 9:30 pm

sashae wrote:JaVale is a terrible counter-example, hands. He had a PER of 17 in 15 minutes a game as a rookie, and had multiple double-doubles that season, and 15 game scores of 10 or better -- in other words, dumb mistakes or not he passed the eye test.

KSera had /one/ game score over 10 last season, and had a PER of 7. Again, name one project big man that actually worked out, that looked as atrocious as Seraphin did last year.


First, his core role is not a scoring one. It is defense, clearing the paint, rebounds and putting a big body on other teams big bodies. It is slowing them down and making them work. It is giving McGee rest and challenging him as the defensive center. McGee clearly has more upside, but KS can get his limited game established more quickly and that will help McGee to focus on his game more. Any scoring his does is just an added benny. McGee and KS could be a nice One Two punch. One more power. One more finesse with amazing length and leaps. They need both and if either improves, it helps the other. And any thing Ves and Booker can add at PF is also going to help both get better faster.

Getting into that debate with you about who did what worst and made it would be waste of time and pointless. To subjective and situational.

Twenty games. Then lets talk again. Maybe he will be a bust. I'm just saying everyone needs to see more before it is really worth judging. One year one of team that was blown up and in full rebuild is not enough.

I'm pulling for the kid to do it.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#745 » by BanndNDC » Fri Jan 6, 2012 9:36 pm

of course seraphin should be available. heck, seraphin and booker are obvious trade bait along with blatche and crawford (young would be to except for the contract thing).

i dont think he is horrible and he has shown some flashes but the bottom line remains (as it does with almost every one of our players) is that his ceiling is decent role player/solid backup.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#746 » by montestewart » Fri Jan 6, 2012 9:38 pm

Bynum looked pretty bad his rookie year. But if we can get anything useful for Seraphin...
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Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#747 » by hands11 » Fri Jan 6, 2012 9:42 pm

montestewart wrote:Bynum looked pretty bad his rookie year. But if we can get anything useful for Seraphin...


But no one is getting trade right now. Actually, I would be shocked if anyone was moving in the next 10 games.

Now is a time to build and evaluate.

I think am I being reasonable about what I am saying.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#748 » by montestewart » Fri Jan 6, 2012 9:56 pm

hands11 wrote:
montestewart wrote:Bynum looked pretty bad his rookie year. But if we can get anything useful for Seraphin...


But no one is getting trade right now. Actually, I would be shocked if anyone was moving in the next 10 games.

Now is a time to build and evaluate.

I think am I being reasonable about what I am saying.

Bynum is one examples of a very good center that didn't look so hot right away. I'm sure there are other at least serviceable backups that looked lousy initially.I don't mind looking longer at Seraphin, and I worry about whatever trades EG might make, but if the right deal came along, why not grab it?
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Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#749 » by fugop » Fri Jan 6, 2012 9:57 pm

For what it's worth, this is sad:

http://bkref.com/tiny/Noa5b

In the last four years, 48 rookies, 6'8" or taller, have had a PER of less than 10. 5 of those rookies have been Wizards: N'Diaye, Pecherov, Seraphin, McGuire, and Chris Singleton. No other team has had more than three; even if Singleton bumps up his statistical production, we're likely to maintain our ignominious lead.

I think Chris Kaman is the only big who had a sub-10 PER his first year and ultimately averaged above-15; he showed significant improvement his second year, and was at 15 his third year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nch01.html
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Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#750 » by nate33 » Fri Jan 6, 2012 10:05 pm

fugop wrote:For what it's worth, this is sad:

http://bkref.com/tiny/Noa5b

In the last four years, 48 rookies, 6'8" or taller, have had a PER of less than 10. 5 of those rookies have been Wizards: N'Diaye, Pecherov, Seraphin, McGuire, and Chris Singleton. No other team has had more than three; even if Singleton bumps up his statistical production, we're likely to maintain our ignominious lead.

That's got to be one of the most obscure and irrelevant stats I've seen. All it really says is that the Wizards have picked a bunch of 6-8 guys late in the draft.

Singleton has played 7 games so we have no idea what his PER will be; and chances are, he's going to be a pretty solid player - better than average for a guy picked in his draft slot.

McGuire actually panned out to be a worthwhile player - which is great for a guy picked 47th.

N'Diaye was the 56th player taken in the draft. There was virtually no chance of him succeeding.

Seraphin may not pan out, but looking at the guys picked immediately after him, it's hard to say EG really bungled the pick.

The only bad pick was the Pecherov one.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#751 » by fugop » Fri Jan 6, 2012 10:58 pm

I was attempting to find some players who started their careers with mediocre statistical production, only to become above average statistical producers later on. Is there a developmental archetype into which Seraphin fits?

I can think of a number of players who seemingly started slowly only to become valuable contributors. Tyson Chandler, Jermaine O'Neal, Udonis Haslem, Taj Gibson, Nic Batum, JJ Hickson, Joe Johnson, Chauncey Billups, Darrell Arthur, Sam Dalembert, Brandon Bass, even Andray Blatche, etc.

Most of those guys either had surprisingly decent first year statistical production or never reached a decent PER, instead becoming primarily defensive contributors. Bass, Arthur, and Batum are possible counter points. I don't see Seraphin becoming a defensive role player, though it's possible.

I basically agree with your interpretation -- my post wasn't intended to be an indictment of our player development. I wasn't criticizing Grunfeld or Saunders, not blaming them for failing to develop bigs. I think Singleton was a fantastic pick, McGuire was pretty good, and N'Diaye was a more than acceptable reach. Pecherov was terrible, and Seraphin may yet pan out.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#752 » by closg00 » Fri Jan 6, 2012 11:48 pm

Bynum had Kareem for a big-man coach and the Lakers carefully developed Bynum while his body filled-out.

Seraphin was simply drafted too-high when compared to the other project-Centers taken that year. Every project big taken in that draft was either stashed, or sent to the D-League, Seraphin being the sole exception.

29-Daniel Orton - Orlando (Mexico Thunderbirds)
31-Tibor Pleiss - New Jersey (Stashed)
32- Dexter Pittman - Miami (Sioux Falls Skyforce)
33 -Hassan Whiteside - Sacramento (Reno Bighorns)
44 -Jerome Jordan - New York (Stashed for a year, now with the Knicks)
45 -Paulão Prestes - Minnesota (Stashed)
49 - Ryan Richards - San Antonio (Stashed)
50 - Solomon Alabi - Toronto (Erie BayHawks)
56 - Hamady N'Diaye - Washington ( Iowa Energy)

So we drafted someone who should have been left to play overseas like Ryan Richards etc, or not drafted at-all. Many thought James Anderson should have been selected, he was the highest ranked player available on the board.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#753 » by closg00 » Sat Jan 7, 2012 4:21 pm

Hamady had 8 blocked-shots last night in 28 minutes. I wonder if a McGee/N'Diaye/Seraphin rotation has ever been considered? I don't think I've seen more than a minute or two of Hamady on the floor.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#754 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Jan 7, 2012 5:45 pm

closg00 wrote:Hamady had 8 blocked-shots last night in 28 minutes. I wonder if a McGee/N'Diaye/Seraphin rotation has ever been considered? I don't think I've seen more than a minute or two of Hamady on the floor.


N'Diaye had a nice first game with 6 points, 9 rebounds, 8 blocks. Thanks for posting this, closg00. I would put N'Diaye at C just on the basis of his defense at Rutgers. I think he can play with Seraphin or McGee.

I noticed his D league teammate, Marqus Blakely, went 10-10 FG and had 27 points.

That guy belongs on an NBA roster.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#755 » by montestewart » Sat Jan 7, 2012 10:07 pm

sashae wrote:JaVale is a terrible counter-example, hands. He had a PER of 17 in 15 minutes a game as a rookie, and had multiple double-doubles that season, and 15 game scores of 10 or better -- in other words, dumb mistakes or not he passed the eye test.

KSera had /one/ game score over 10 last season, and had a PER of 7. Again, name one project big man that actually worked out, that looked as atrocious as Seraphin did last year.

KS actually had an 8.4 PER last year, according to BR. A search of forwards and centers 6'8" and taller w/ less than 10 PER in their rookie seasons produces hundreds of names (461 total). Most forgotten or remembered only because they should be forgotten, but looking only at the larger C/F types and ignoring ones that made a game on scoring (Cliff Robinson, Al Harrington, Rashard Lewis, etc.) some names still popped out.

Joel Przybilla, Jerome Whitehead, Mike Brown Blair Rasmussen, Mark West were there. Some on the list were key role players on contenders, like Joel Anthony and Will Perdue. Some were players I've heard people on this board admire, like Brandon Bass or Chris Kaman, Kris Humphries or...Andrew Bynum (whose first year PER was lower than Seraphin's). Some were former Bullets/Wizards who went on to success elsewhere, like Jim McIlvaine and Ben Wallace. One that had a negative rookie PER last year but seems to have turned it around a bit in his second year is Dexter Pittman.

Point is, most of those players looked horrible initially (and I can remember some of them looking horrible initially). I didn't look up every player on that long list, and I'm sure there are others that had credible careers despite the horrible 1st season (and in some cases, a few dreadful seasons). It's too early to trade Seraphin just to create a roster space. If he's traded, it should be to a team that views him as a prospect, just as I do, someone whose ceiling might still be somewhere in the Mike Brown/Mark West/Brandon Bass mix.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#756 » by no D in Hibachi » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:04 am

Boy is this guy terrible or what? I'm not sure what he provides to get any amount of playing time. His shot selection against the Bulls was atrocious. He doesn't board, can't outlet pass without it getting stolen, has no offensive game to speak of. I know the talent really dried up fast last draft, but my goodness is this guy looking like an incredible bust right now.

EG has taken 3 Euro's in the first round during his time here. Two look like monumental busts, the other isn't very endearing, but I'll give him time.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#757 » by JonathanJoseph » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:10 am

Send him to the D League once Turiaf gets back. He is no where near ready to contribute.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#758 » by closg00 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:45 am

The Wizards organization is setting-up Kevin Seraphin to fail. Only the Wizards would send a raw project like KS out-there to flail around. Recall Hamady, he's probably a better basketball player.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#759 » by nate33 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:57 pm

closg00 wrote:The Wizards organization is setting-up Kevin Seraphin to fail. Only the Wizards would send a raw project like KS out-there to flail around. Recall Hamady, he's probably a better basketball player.

If Seraphin didn't play, half this board would say that Flip was sabotaging Seraphin's development by denying him any playing time.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin 

Post#760 » by REDardWIZskin » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:22 pm

Following the model of playing people who contribute, he's probably done the least to warrant any playing time. He should definitely be in the D League, it would be valuable playing he could receive. Letting him ride the pine and remaining a question mark is not helping anyone... HH seems like he deserves a shot. I mean its not like it would be a permanent decision.
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