The Lebron Thread

[toodles23]

No significant athletic decline. LeBron just isn't a clutch player on the biggest stage against quality teams.

Brilliant, never seen this explanation before. Well done. Totally explains his diminished ability to get to the basket since coming to Miami.

[ahonui06]

No significant athletic decline. LeBron just isn't a clutch player on the biggest stage against quality teams.

Brilliant, never seen this explanation before. Well done. Totally explains his diminished ability to get to the basket since coming to Miami.

He probably doesn't get to the basket as much because the Heat don't have many shooters so the defense can collapse inside. A 5 year old could figure that out.

[SideshowBob]

No significant athletic decline. LeBron just isn't a clutch player on the biggest stage against quality teams.

No

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nlz7jItVg24[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzsAi1a1rog[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYMLFzNAhEU[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9sDuyICTks[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fsG8tfxPCI[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOwCjHloLnI[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPT6QxoxEZg[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqJOf9v2e_s[/youtube]

[Chosen01]

So basically I should just disregard stats and use the eye test. Ok.


Even then you change "LeBron James not being as effective as 09 as is he now" to "him not being as better in the clutch".You then go on to post LeBron torching the Bulls in the clutch in the last playoffs.

LeBron is more effective this season, he may not be as athletic due to gaining weight but he's still the top player.

[CablexDeadpool]

So basically I should just disregard stats and use the eye test. Ok.


Even then you change "LeBron James not being as effective as 09 as is he now" to "him not being as better in the clutch".You then go on to post LeBron torching the Bulls in the clutch in the last playoffs.

LeBron is more effective this season, he may not be as athletic due to gaining weight but he's still the top player.

This. He's 25 to 30 pounds heavier since he came in the league.

[SideshowBob]

So basically I should just disregard stats and use the eye test. Ok.

Even then you change "LeBron James not being as effective as 09 as is he now" to "him not being as better in the clutch".You then go on to post LeBron torching the Bulls in the clutch in the last playoffs.

LeBron is more effective this season, he may not be as athletic due to gaining weight but he's still the top player.

Okay maybe I misspoke. What I'm trying to say is that the way he is playing right now is more effective up until the fourth quarter. But when the defenses tighten up, his scoring ability is diminished, while in Cleveland it was the opposite, when the defenses tightened up, he was the one guy you could look for to score. If he maintains confidence in his jumper, as he did against us and Chicago in the playoffs, he can still remain absolutely deadly, but so far this season, I haven't seen that from him in close games. He just becomes passive. The games that weren't close, Indiana, NJ, Dallas, etc. he came out aggressive, looking to shoot. But the games that got tight at the end, such as last night, against Atlanta and the first game against the Bobcats, that wasn't the case.

My argument from there is that because of this reduced effectiveness in the clutch his overall effectiveness is not what it was in Cleveland. If you read the OP, I argued that the reason he was so impactful in Cleveland in the first place was because his value was disproportionately released in crunch time. This hasn't consistently been the case in Miami.

[SideshowBob]

And I want to make it clear that I only agree with IG2's point of Lebron's significant athletic decline hampering him in tight situations. I still think he's far and away the best player in the league

[magicman1978]

He seems to be getting to the basket just as good as ever this year. I also like the fact that he's not really shooting the 3-ball this year and putting more pressure on the defense.

[SideshowBob]

He seems to be getting to the basket just as good as ever this year. I also like the fact that he's not really shooting the 3-ball this year and putting more pressure on the defense.

He's among the best in the league at getting to the basket off the ball, but with the ball and covered one on one, he can't blow by his defender the way he used to in his last years as a Cav. He needs a full head of steam to do it and that's why we see him getting a lot of points on the break

As for the three point shooting, I'm not a fan of how he's cut it out. All he's done to make up for it is take more 16-23 footers than before and the three is a more efficient option that will be crucial in the playoffs. Not having it in his arsenal looks good on the stat sheet, because his FG% shoots up, but I think he'd be better suited in the long run taking 1-2 threes a game. He doesn't have to jack up 5 heat checks a game like he used to, but just take a couple to keep the defense honest

[IG2]

And I want to make it clear that I only agree with IG2's point of Lebron's significant athletic decline hampering him in tight situations. I still think he's far and away the best player in the league

Majority of the basketball games are close in the 4th qtr. Especially against non-sucky opponents. I just don't see how a player as unproductive as LeBron is when it matters most can be the league's best player.

Give me Rose, Durant and Kobe(if he can maintain what he's shown this season) any day.

[Sevach]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqE-DrcWV6I

Note the superior acceleration and explosion to the basket in the halfcourt, the quick spin moves in traffic (he used to love using spin moves, but he hardly ever does them anymore), the takeover in the 4th quarter (typical of Cleveland Lebron even as far back as 2006), and the open court dunk on Diaw at 5:25. He was a different player back then.

I clicked on this vid before reading what you wrote and noticed the same thing you did, how quick and smooth was his spin move (and some other things) going to the basket.

Lebron doesn't make this kind of explosive direction changes anymore, now he just bull rushes and powers his way to the rim.

[SideshowBob]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqE-DrcWV6I

Note the superior acceleration and explosion to the basket in the halfcourt, the quick spin moves in traffic (he used to love using spin moves, but he hardly ever does them anymore), the takeover in the 4th quarter (typical of Cleveland Lebron even as far back as 2006), and the open court dunk on Diaw at 5:25. He was a different player back then.

I clicked on this vid before reading what you wrote and noticed the same thing you did, how quick and smooth was his spin move (and some other things) going to the basket.

Lebron doesn't make this kind of explosive direction changes anymore, now he just bull rushes and powers his way to the rim.

Another thing is that he now has to back all the way out past the three point line in order to build a full head of steam to attack the basket. In 09 and 10 he was so nimble and quick that he could literally blast off from anywhere inside the line and quickly get to the basket. It takes him a lot more effort to get to the basket now.

[SideshowBob]

The issue is that people are confusing Lebron's style of play from before 09-10 with the earlier Lebron.

[IG2]

Interesting game from LeBron tonight. He was certainly aggressive in the 4th qtr, but it was all through slashing. It wasn't as bad as you'd think it was. He was actually getting a step on his man, no acceleration beyond that though, so his only hope was of drawing a foul - which he did. But he repeatedly choked on free throws. Missed some bunnies too. Ended up looking like an even bigger laughing stock than yesterday. This guy is no best-player-in-the-league. The game is simply too difficult for him when the pace slows down. And he seems mentally fragile too, something I would have never accused him of in Cleveland.

[SideshowBob]

That was a really strange game. Lebron usually shoots in the mid 80s on late game free throws, but the whole team had something going on today. It's true, his mental fortitude is different from what it was in Cleveland.

Before, when he got pissed, he'd usually go nuts and have a big 4th quarter to close it out. Now when he gets pissed, he starts making stupid mistakes, turns the ball over, etc.

Sad that this is what he's going to be remembered for, rather than what he did earlier in his career

[IG2]

^
What did you think of his slashing in the 4th qtr? I was surprised to see him consistently get a step on his defender with his first step. He was attacking on the catch, something he never does, maybe that's one way to overcome his obvious limitations in the half-court?

[SideshowBob]

^
What did you think of his slashing in the 4th qtr? I was surprised to see him consistently get a step on his defender with his first step. He was attacking on the catch, something he never does, maybe that's one way to overcome his obvious limitations in the half-court?

I'll have to watch it again and really pay attention. He was getting the switch on the pick and roll with Billups covering him so I would expect him to at least get a step on him. He attacked on the catch a few times, but didn't manage to explode at the basket and finish even once.

The one play that really stood out was right at the end of the third, when he used the spin move and got quick penetration to the basket. It's not so much the spin move, but more the quickness at which he pulled it out that caught my attention.

It's late, but I'm going to rewatch the game tape tomorrow and I'll try to give more thoughts

[IG2]

I'll have to watch it again and really pay attention. He was getting the switch on the pick and roll with Billups covering him so I would expect him to at least get a step on him.

Well, he couldn't even do that last season. Remember his inability to beat a dinasour in Kidd off-the-dribble in the Finals? Or Chicago's bigs on switches in the ECF? The likes of Asik and Taj Gibson had no trouble staying with him.

He attacked on the catch a few times, but didn't manage to explode at the basket and finish even once.

Yep . Safe to admit he simply doesn't possess the required acceleration and explosiveness to do that anymore. But hey, at least he was able to get to the FT line in the half-court off his own dribble. It's something.

The one play that really stood out was right at the end of the third, when he used the spin move and got quick penetration to the basket. It's not so much the spin move, but more the quickness at which he pulled it out that caught my attention.

A once-in-a-month type of play from LeBron. I was shocked. He simply never displays that kind of quickness and explosiveness anymore.

[toodles23]

The spin move in the 3rd surprised me too, it was totally unexpected. His problem was that his shot was horribly off, he was awful at the line (he looked really uncomfortable there, I bet he'll change his routine before the next game) and he hasn't shot jumpers well in the last several games. Lebron looked quick off the dribble tonight, if he keeps that up he'll be able to make a killing at the line late in games (and hopefully build confidence in his jumper as a result), but the relative lack of explosiveness when trying to finish was evident.

[SideshowBob]

His jumper has been non-existent since the start of January, and though his FG% had been on the rise, I thought he played better basketball through the first 4 or 5 games than he did in the last few.

When he's looking to set up the jumper, he's displaying his offensive versatility and the game comes very easy from him. When he moves away from that, he has stretches where he looks completely uninvolved in the game.

The Dallas game, the Minnesota and the road Bobcats game are great examples of this. He didn't limit himself to one style of attack and then use bailout jumpers as the counter, and he's looked his best in those games.

In all honesty, he looks way better when he's taking 10-12 midrange jumpshots and establishing that jumper early, than when he starts off just piling up points on the break.