Becoming a serious contender

[Mattya]

Just look at how much publicity KD gets with Nike, and he is in OKC.

[Krapinsky]

Just look at how much publicity KD gets with Nike, and he is in OKC.

Can you say he wouldn't get more (and wouldn't sell more shoes) if he was playing for the Knicks?

[Mattya]

It is tough to say. Compare Melo before and after the trade to NY. I don't see any more of him now in commercials, than i did before. Obviously there are more nationally televised games for NY compared to Denver. That could be just because Denver was never a real contender. Compared to OKC, who are contenders, and are always on ESPN or TNT. He would probably be more recognized, but I don't know if he would really get more endorsements.

[Krapinsky]

It is tough to say. Compare Melo before and after the trade to NY. I don't see any more of him now in commercials, than i did before. Obviously there are more nationally televised games for NY compared to Denver.Compared to OKC, who are contenders, and are always on ESPN or TNT. He would probably be more recognized, but I don't know if he would really get more endorsements.

This is in Manhattan. A few blocks from MSG. Would that be there if he played for the Nuggets?

[kobe_vs_jordan]

It is a big difference from exposure you receive in small markets than big markets. My teenage sister probably has no idea who Kevin Durant or Kevin Love is but she knows who Mark Sanchez is without ever watching a football game in her life. Even though KD is way more talented at his craft.

From a business perspective, would you rather have somebody playing in front of a million people or 10 million people?

Just look how much more Bosh and Amare started being in the media when they moved from small markets.

[Mattya]

That helps locally in NY but nationally that doesn't do anything in my opinion. Personally I saw more commercials with Melo in them when he was in Denver.

[Krapinsky]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-esY6csPy0[/youtube]

Deron William's new Red Bull advertisement (a national commercial).

[Krapinsky]

That helps locally in NY but nationally that doesn't do anything in my opinion. Personally I saw more commercials with Melo in them when he was in Denver.

So a national deal with Nike wouldn't take into account increased sales in NY compared to Denver?

[Mattya]

That helps locally in NY but nationally that doesn't do anything in my opinion. Personally I saw more commercials with Melo in them when he was in Denver.

So a national deal with Nike wouldn't take into account increased sales in NY compared to Denver?

Sure it would, thats just one city. Maybe Jordan brand or whoever Melo is with just isn't taking advantage of him being in NY now. But I haven't seen a huge difference. People make it seem that if these stars go to NY or LA their going to be on TV every other commercial, but i haven't noticed it.

[Krapinsky]

That helps locally in NY but nationally that doesn't do anything in my opinion. Personally I saw more commercials with Melo in them when he was in Denver.

So a national deal with Nike wouldn't take into account increased sales in NY compared to Denver?

Sure it would, thats just one city. Maybe Jordan brand or whoever Melo is with just isn't taking advantage of him being in NY now. But I haven't seen a huge difference. People make it seem that if these stars go to NY or LA their going to be on TV every other commercial, but i haven't noticed it.

No, I'm just saying that a marketable player like Howard would have little financial incentive to resign with Minnesota, since whatever he would lose in foregoing his bird rights (a fifth year and 3.5% additional raises) could easily be made up with additional endorsement deals/money. Moreover, his agent would prefer it since he or she would get a larger piece of the endorsement deals than he would his player contract.

[Mattya]

Ok gotcha, didn't know you were talking about agents agenda's. Then I agree.

[MarJJMar]

It is a big difference from exposure you receive in small markets than big markets. My teenage sister probably has no idea who Kevin Durant or Kevin Love is but she knows who Mark Sanchez is without ever watching a football game in her life. Even though KD is way more talented at his craft.

From a business perspective, would you rather have somebody playing in front of a million people or 10 million people?

Just look how much more Bosh and Amare started being in the media when they moved from small markets.

doh, the NFL is much more popular than the NBA in the states. Guess that has more than anything to do with your example.

Also I do not see Amare being in the media much more, maybe even less. He was an allstar starter in Phoenix already.

Especially overseas popularity is hardly influenced at all by that. The Lakers might be the only exception to that. I do not see Amare being more popular in Europe as a Knick at all, probably less than before because overall success is a bigger influence than the local US market.

[shrink]

This isn't the per-cable TV NBA. The US and the world know who the top players are, and they don't have to be in the major markets. Case in point - two of the most heavily marketed players of the last tem years, LeBron James, and before him Kevin Garnett, got plenty of endorsements even though they were far from the coasts.

No one's saying they're not going to get endorsements. I'm saying those endorsement opportunities are greater playing in a big market. I'm shocked anyone could try and dispute that.

The greatest ones have been for LeBron and Garnett, and neither were from a big market.

I don't think the evidence fits your beliefs here.

[MarJJMar]

Patrick Ewing was in New York, Charles Barkley was in Phoenix.

Who got more media recognition?

At a certain point local market means squat and the only thing that really matters is personality and how well the player can be marketed.

Eg Kobe Bryant probably has more fans than the Lakers itself. They have about the same amount of facebook likes and I would put money on it that there are more Kobe fans in russia, china and wherever facebook is not popular than Lakers fans.

Or Lebron who actually has twice as many likes as the Heat.

Yet Amare has just 400k. Steve Nash 4 times as many. Carmelo is in New York and got just 800k, half of what Nash has.

[Krapinsky]

This isn't the per-cable TV NBA. The US and the world know who the top players are, and they don't have to be in the major markets. Case in point - two of the most heavily marketed players of the last tem years, LeBron James, and before him Kevin Garnett, got plenty of endorsements even though they were far from the coasts.

No one's saying they're not going to get endorsements. I'm saying those endorsement opportunities are greater playing in a big market. I'm shocked anyone could try and dispute that.

The greatest ones have been for LeBron and Garnett, and neither were from a big market.

I assume you're focusing solely on a shoe contract? Even then, would you then say their deals wouldn't have been bigger if they played in NY when they were signed? Though, I could see an exception to the general rule here in which the financial difference is probably less of a factor for transcendent, face of the sport athletes, like Kobe and Lebron are to basketball, Tiger is to golf, Lance Armstrong, etc. Those guys get top dollar industry contract regardless. I don't think that applies for the majority of players, like Melo and Howard on down though.

[shrink]

No one's saying they're not going to get endorsements. I'm saying those endorsement opportunities are greater playing in a big market. I'm shocked anyone could try and dispute that.

The greatest ones have been for LeBron and Garnett, and neither were from a big market.

I assume you're focusing solely on a shoe contract? Even then, would you then say their deals wouldn't have been bigger if they played in NY when they were signed? Though, I could see an exception to the general rule here in which the financial difference is probably less of a factor for transcendent, face of the sport athletes, like Kobe and Lebron are to basketball, Tiger is to golf, Lance Armstrong, etc. Those guys get top dollar industry contract regardless. I don't think that applies for the majority of players, like Melo and Howard on down though.

It goes far past shoes. Garnett and LeBron have been two players with the highest recognition among any players. They both got shoe contracts, but other advertising as well (Gatorade, etc).

The point is that these companies could have used a players in NY or LA, but they chose to go with players in Minnesota and Cleveland. Granted, Kobe shot himself in the foot with his rape charges, and lost his new McDonalds deal, but nationally LeBron and KG were getting far better visibility than anyone in either NY or LA. Advertisers for the last tem years have shown that they follow the talent, and that talent doesn't need to be on the coasts.

Hmm. I'm trying to give some thought as to why you would think differently. Is it possible you see Kobe in LA a lot since you live there? Maybe he was axed nationally by McDonalds, but they still kept him on in LA?

[Krapinsky]

No, I think it's just common sense. Yes, the greatest player are going to get the biggest deals regardless, but that doesn't mean their biggest deals wouldn't be bigger if they starred in a larger market.

[shrink]

Do you think some guy on the 2004 knicks turned down Gatorade's contracts, so that "opportunity" then fell on a guy in middle America?

I don't think being in New York or LA gave them the opportunity.

[Iommi]

lifelong wolves fan here, and i think small markets are more than capable of competing for free agents and big names, but money is not the argument to make that on. people using REAL specific, anecdotal, and extreme examples to make that argument in this topic. more fans equal more money. teams like the lakers and knicks have fans in every state, consistently. transcendent personalities and talents certainly can overcome that and its happened before, which explain the lebrons and the garnetts, but thats no reason to completely ignore an advantage that indisputably exists and should be thought about and worked around. look at nate robinson's jersey sales during his time in new york and boston. look at david lee's jersey sales in new york compared to now in golden state. In new york David Lee was a top fifteen draw in the entire league. I actually love rooting for a small market but lets stop acting like there's only a perceived disadvantage and nothing tangible.

ten of the top 15 best selling jerseys from last year (taken from april 13, i believe Rondo dropped and Rose rose by the end but i can't remember) were from LA, Boston, Chicago or New York. It definitely, indisputably helps.

1. LeBron James, Miami Heat
2. Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles Lakers
3. Rajon Rondo, Boston Celtics
4. Amar'e Stoudemire, New York Knicks
5. Derrick Rose, Chicago Bulls
6. Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat
7. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City Thunder
8. Carmelo Anthony, New York Knicks
9. Dwight Howard, Orlando Magic
10. John Wall, Washington Wizards
11. Blake Griffin, Los Angeles Clippers
12. Shaquille O'Neal, Boston Celtics
13. Ray Allen, Boston Celtics
14. Paul Pierce, Boston Celtics
15. Kevin Garnett, Boston Celtics

[Krapinsky]

Do you think some guy on the 2004 knicks turned down Gatorade's contracts, so that "opportunity" then fell on a guy in middle America?

I don't think being in New York or LA gave them the opportunity.

Not even sure what this is in response to or if you're trying to put words in my mouth or what.