2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects

[ManualRam]

John Henson is so underrated here in this forum

Can be a new Marcus Camby in NBA, for a player who averages 3 or more blks a game in ACC conference, i think his 1.3 personal fouls a game shows that he actually is a lot better than just being extremely long and atheltic, he has good bball iq too

He hs an improved offensive game and listed at 6'11" with a 7'6" wingspan that helps him in NBA for sure.

I still think Leonard is a better prospect with higher ceiling, but Henson is definitely underrate here

he is. my only problem with him is that it took him 3 yrs to get to the weight he's at, which is what anthony davis is at right now. he doesnt have the wide set shoulders that anthony davis has, so i have to wonder how much more weight his frame will be able to carry.

[Kirsten19]

but 6'11" n a freakish 7'6" wingspan? that something u cant improve i guess??

Not to mention he is extremely athleic. For a post defender who always goes for blocks n averages 3 or more blocks a game, 1.6 personal fouls a game is pretty amazing

He has very high bball iq, read the game well n great timing/positioning for his blocks.

He isnt a liability offensively either

[ManualRam]

but 6'11" n a freakish 7'6" wingspan? that something u cant improve i guess??

Not to mention he is extremely athleic. For a post defender who always goes for blocks n averages 3 or more blocks a game, 1.6 personal fouls a game is pretty amazing

He has very high bball iq, read the game well n great timing/positioning for his blocks.

He isnt a liability offensively either

i know what you're saying. i liked henson even when he was struggling as a freshman and soph, his frame and weight are issues though. he can get bodied and nullified in the post. the work he's done to improve his offensive game in the post has been impressive, but will it actually be effective at the next level? you look at a player like brandan wright who had a post game in college but wasnt able to use it because he cant establish and hold position. henson might have to be more of a face up offensive player, but in order to do that you have to have a jump shot. he's improved his shot, but it still needs work as evidenced by his still poor FT%.

[hello_melo]

mkg played 37 minutes. no coach plays their player 37 minutes and tells them not to be productive.

Too bad that isn't what I was arguing, nor what you were arguing, nor is it even remotely relevant to our discussion. I guess you just hit the donkey trifecta.

I've asked you twice now if the situations are comparable, and you refuse to answer. I guess I'll take that for what it is...

bertrand has been a starter for 4 games and has just recently worked his way back into the rotation. prior to the mizzou game he hadnt even played more than 22 minutes a game all season.

"back" into the rotation? When was he ever in the rotation before this?

And once again, how is it that we can learn nothing from Bertrand's small sample size, but you had Burke locked in with Medusa's glare after a similar sample?

Any comment on Burke shooting 38% from the floor in the Big Ten? Too small a sample size, we ought to be relying on the 2 good games he had in the non-conference when you solidified your opinion?

[ManualRam]

mkg played 37 minutes. no coach plays their player 37 minutes and tells them not to be productive.

Too bad that isn't what I was arguing, nor what you were arguing, nor is it even remotely relevant to our discussion. I guess you just hit the donkey trifecta.

I've asked you twice now if the situations are comparable, and you refuse to answer. I guess I'll take that for what it is...

bertrand has been a starter for 4 games and has just recently worked his way back into the rotation. prior to the mizzou game he hadnt even played more than 22 minutes a game all season.

"back" into the rotation? When was he ever in the rotation before this?

And once again, how is it that we can learn nothing from Bertrand's small sample size, but you had Burke locked in with Medusa's glare after a similar sample?

Any comment on Burke shooting 38% from the floor in the Big Ten? Too small a sample size, we ought to be relying on the 2 good games he had in the non-conference when you solidified your opinion?

its relevant. you're saying mkg didnt have to be productive which makes no sense. no coach plays their players 37 minutes and expects them not to be productive. neither him nor leonard were productive during their respective games.

bertrand was getting 15-20 minutes a game to start this season, even in non-blowouts.

burke has been starting and getting heavy minutes since the beginning of the season. bertrand has not.

exactly, too small a smaple size. burke's been playing very well despite the shooting %'s. 17/5 during conference play.

[MalonesElbows]

but 6'11" n a freakish 7'6" wingspan? that something u cant improve i guess??

Not to mention he is extremely athleic. For a post defender who always goes for blocks n averages 3 or more blocks a game, 1.6 personal fouls a game is pretty amazing

He has very high bball iq, read the game well n great timing/positioning for his blocks.

He isnt a liability offensively either

Look at that tiny frame though, he is not going to fill out that much more as he is already 21. 230 lb centers and power forwards get annihilated in the NBA regardless of wingspan. He will be late lotto.

[hello_melo]

its relevant. you're saying mkg didnt have to be productive which makes no sense. no coach plays their players 37 minutes and expects them not to be productive. neither him nor leonard were productive during their respective games.

Except that I'm not his coach. I'm a poster on a message board trying to figure out a player's draft stock. And a player that doesn't need to score big every night for his team to win having a low scoring game just isn't that big of a deal. Not to Cal, not to me, not to you.

Now if that player's team is in serious danger of losing to the worst team in his conference at home, and if said player goes 3 games without making major contributions instead of just one...

Now are you going to answer my question or not? Why do you refuse to answer? Maybe you can have me look up the answer in the dictionary?

burke has been starting and getting heavy minutes since the beginning of the season. bertrand has not.

exactly, too small a smaple size. burke's been playing very well despite the shooting %'s. 17/5 during conference play.

You started in on Burke after Maui. Bertrand has more of a sample than Burke did then. But again, we've got a situation where you fell head over heels and want to make some major leaps in terms of projection, and refuse to consider a different prospect with a similar sample size that you haven't fallen for. No way around it, a double standard at its finest.

You could attempt to go into why you don't like Bertrand, but you refuse to do that. Just be a blatant hypocrite because if somebody calls you out on it you can just change the definition of hypocrisy. Right?

[hello_melo]

Just out of curiosity, when was the last time a player shot less than 40% in conference play and got drafted in the first round?

What does the dictionary say about that, MR?

[ManualRam]

its relevant. you're saying mkg didnt have to be productive which makes no sense. no coach plays their players 37 minutes and expects them not to be productive. neither him nor leonard were productive during their respective games.

Except that I'm not his coach. I'm a poster on a message board trying to figure out a player's draft stock. And a player that doesn't need to score big every night for his team to win having a low scoring game just isn't that big of a deal. Not to Cal, not to me, not to you.

Now if that player's team is in serious danger of losing to the worst team in his conference at home, and if said player goes 3 games without making major contributions instead of just one...

Now are you going to answer my question or not? Why do you refuse to answer? Maybe you can have me look up the answer in the dictionary?

burke has been starting and getting heavy minutes since the beginning of the season. bertrand has not.

exactly, too small a smaple size. burke's been playing very well despite the shooting %'s. 17/5 during conference play.

You started in on Burke after Maui. Bertrand has more of a sample than Burke did then. But again, we've got a situation where you fell head over heels and want to make some major leaps in terms of projection, and refuse to consider a different prospect with a similar sample size that you haven't fallen for. No way around it, a double standard at its finest.

You could attempt to go into why you don't like Bertrand, but you refuse to do that. Just be a blatant hypocrite because if somebody calls you out on it you can just change the definition of hypocrisy. Right?

the answer is NEITHER player played well. NEITHER player was productive.

what major leaps did i make in my projection? what prediction did i make up until then?
i said he was the most impressive, most advanced freshman PG i've seen this yr.

i never said i didnt like bertrand either.

[Vides990]

but 6'11" n a freakish 7'6" wingspan? that something u cant improve i guess??

Not to mention he is extremely athleic. For a post defender who always goes for blocks n averages 3 or more blocks a game, 1.6 personal fouls a game is pretty amazing

He has very high bball iq, read the game well n great timing/positioning for his blocks.

He isnt a liability offensively either

Look at that tiny frame though, he is not going to fill out that much more as he is already 21. 230 lb centers and power forwards get annihilated in the NBA regardless of wingspan. He will be late lotto.

Tell that to Joakim Noah.....

[hello_melo]

the answer is NEITHER player played well. NEITHER player was productive.

So what you are saying is that because Gilchrist - playing on a team where he doesn't have to be the man every night - didn't get a lot of shots in 1 game, that his team won easily, is the same as Leonard's stretch of multiple games in which his team was going down to the wire against the worst teams in the conference and desperately needed his presence?

Why is this the 4th time I've asked the question and you still haven't answered it?

what major leaps did i make in my projection? what prediction did i make up until then?
i said he was the most impressive, most advanced freshman PG i've seen this yr.

i never said i didnt like bertrand either.

So you are saying you weren't hyping him up as a draft prospect after Maui? You sure about that?

[mid-post]

Tell that to Joakim Noah.....

I don't think Joakim was ever that skinny at Florida.




Henson is just naturally very very thin, like KD.

[ManualRam]

the answer is NEITHER player played well. NEITHER player was productive.

So what you are saying is that because Gilchrist - playing on a team where he doesn't have to be the man every night - didn't get a lot of shots in 1 game, that his team won easily, is the same as Leonard's stretch of multiple games in which his team was going down to the wire against the worst teams in the conference and desperately needed his presence?

Why is this the 4th time I've asked the question and you still haven't answered it?

what major leaps did i make in my projection? what prediction did i make up until then?
i said he was the most impressive, most advanced freshman PG i've seen this yr.

i never said i didnt like bertrand either.

So you are saying you weren't hyping him up as a draft prospect after Maui? You sure about that?

what im saying was gilchirst played 37 minutes a game vs a bad SC and wasnt productive. leonard was not productive vs nebraska. neither were productive.

yes, im sure. i said he was the best, most advanced freshman PG i have seen this yr. out of all the freshman PGs i've seen this yr, he displays the most maturity, best decision making ability and poise. i didnt project him to be anything specific. i said that he's a future NBA PG and could be ready for the NBA as soon as the 2013 draft.

[ManualRam]

Tell that to Joakim Noah.....

I don't think Joakim was ever that skinny at Florida.



Henson is just naturally very very thin, like KD.

noah had a better build (not in terms of length) and still to this day has strength issues, even after filling out.

[hello_melo]

the answer is NEITHER player played well. NEITHER player was productive.

So what you are saying is that because Gilchrist - playing on a team where he doesn't have to be the man every night - didn't get a lot of shots in 1 game, that his team won easily, is the same as Leonard's stretch of multiple games in which his team was going down to the wire against the worst teams in the conference and desperately needed his presence?

Why is this the 4th time I've asked the question and you still haven't answered it?

what major leaps did i make in my projection? what prediction did i make up until then?
i said he was the most impressive, most advanced freshman PG i've seen this yr.

i never said i didnt like bertrand either.

So you are saying you weren't hyping him up as a draft prospect after Maui? You sure about that?

what im saying was gilchirst played 37 minutes a game vs a bad SC and wasnt productive. leonard was not productive vs nebraska. neither were productive.

So answer the question. Say that the situations were similar.

That Gilchrist had a quiet game on a team that clearly doesn't need him to score 20 every night and blew out the opposition, vs Leonard's consecutive bad games in which his team either lost or nearly lost and desperately needed his presence, are similar situations. Yes or no?

How come you are still here responding when you were whipped in this debate a week ago, yet you can't offer up the simplest of responses to certain questions?

yes, im sure. i said he was the best, most advanced freshman PG i have seen this yr. out of all the freshman PGs i've seen this yr, he displays the most maturity, best decision making ability and poise. i didnt project him to be anything specific. i said that he's a future NBA PG and could be ready for the NBA as soon as the 2013 draft.

You didn't project him to be anything specific, and in the very next sentence you say he's a future NBA PG who could be ready by the 2013 draft. These are contradictory statements.

But I try to put Joseph Bertrand in the NBA mix with a similar sample size and its too small. Hypocrisy at its finest. Maybe you can try to change the definition of hypocrisy?

[ManualRam]

quiet game, unproductive. same thing.
both were in situations to produce. neither did.
neither were productive. if you're gonna knock one for not being productive, knock the other.

no they arent contradictory.
i never said he was gonna be an all-star. i never said he's gonna be a similar starting PG as whoever. i never said he was gonna be upper tier, lower tier. i think he can be an NBA PG at more than a back up capacity. im not exactly going out on a limb here.
to me, he's the best freshman PG i've seen this yr and i think he has the tools to be a starting NBA PG. if i didnt think so, i wouldnt be discussing him in this forum.

go ahead and project bertrand if you. i dont care. im an illini fan, and i havent seen enough of him to project anything.

[hello_melo]

quiet game, unproductive. same thing
both were in situations to produce. neither did.
neither were productive. if you're gonna knock one for not being productive, knock the other.

"both were in situations to produce"...what does that even mean? Should Gilchrist have taken more shots at the expense of his teammates to prove his NBA stock? Why is it that Leonard's 3 game disappearance that clearly negatively affected his team is comparable to MKG's one game? Why doesn't that matter? Just more of you picking and choosing what gets to matter?

no they arent contradictory.
i never said he was gonna be an all-star. i never said he's gonna be a similar starting PG as whoever. i never said he was gonna be upper tier, lower tier. i think he can be an NBA PG at more than a back up capacity. im not exactly going out on a limb here.

So you said you weren't projecting anythign specific and then you predicated he'll be a starter. And those things aren't contradictory. Fantasy camp must be nice...

go ahead and project bertrand if you. i dont care. im an illini fan, and i havent seen enough of him to project anything.

Yet you saw more than enough of Burke in two games. But you aren't contradicting yourself.

[ManualRam]

quiet game, unproductive. same thing
both were in situations to produce. neither did.
neither were productive. if you're gonna knock one for not being productive, knock the other.

"both were in situations to produce"...what does that even mean? Should Gilchrist have taken more shots at the expense of his teammates to prove his NBA stock? Why is it that Leonard's 3 game disappearance that clearly negatively affected his team is comparable to MKG's one game? Why doesn't that matter? Just more of you picking and choosing what gets to matter?

no they arent contradictory.
i never said he was gonna be an all-star. i never said he's gonna be a similar starting PG as whoever. i never said he was gonna be upper tier, lower tier. i think he can be an NBA PG at more than a back up capacity. im not exactly going out on a limb here.

So you said you weren't projecting anythign specific and then you predicated he'll be a starter. And those things aren't contradictory. Fantasy camp must be nice...

go ahead and project bertrand if you. i dont care. im an illini fan, and i havent seen enough of him to project anything.

Yet you saw more than enough of Burke in two games. But you aren't contradicting yourself.

leonard being the top offensive option and mkg being played 37 minutes in a game. both were in a situation to produce. even if the SC game was a blowout, mkg still played 37 minutes. he shouldve been more productive. you hold leonard's productivity in games against him, so why not mkg? is a stretch of games avging 8 pts a game 36% from the floor, 4 TOs in 33 minutes a game acceptable for any high level prospect?
ooohh...but he doesnt HAVE to produce, right?

saying someone is potentially an NBA level starter is not specific especially if we're in a forum talking about NBA prospects.

2 games? no. after maui, all i basically said was that i was impressed by his performance. after subsequent viewings (10 in games in total). i said he's the best freshman PG i've seen this yr.

[hello_melo]

leonard being the top offensive option and mkg being played 37 minutes in a game. both were in a situation to produce. even if the SC game was a blowout, mkg still played 37 minutes. he shouldve been more productive. you hold leonard's productivity in games against him, so why not mkg? is a stretch of games avging 8 pts a game 36% from the floor, 4 TOs in 33 minutes a game acceptable for any high level prospect?
ooohh...but he doesnt HAVE to produce, right?

You are actually dull enough to think you've got me here. Are you aware that when I started asking you to explain how Gilchrist's one game where his team won handily vs Leonard's three games where his team was terrible, Gilchrist had only played 1 poor game?

Did you really think I'd just let you shift the argument to multiple poor games in a row from Gilchrist? Really?

And OF COURSE, Gilchrist gets docked for four straight games. Not as much as Leonard, since Gilchrist is a secondary scoring option on his team, but it absolutely changes once it becomes a pattern.

saying someone is potentially an NBA level starter is not specific especially if we're in a forum talking about NBA prospects.

2 games? no. after maui, all i basically said was that i was impressed by his performance. after subsequent viewings (10 in games in total). i said he's the best freshman PG i've seen this yr.

Please point me to the spot where if what you said about Burke isn't specific, what I said about Bertrand was specific. You are caught here, and you know it.

[ManualRam]

leonard being the top offensive option and mkg being played 37 minutes in a game. both were in a situation to produce. even if the SC game was a blowout, mkg still played 37 minutes. he shouldve been more productive. you hold leonard's productivity in games against him, so why not mkg? is a stretch of games avging 8 pts a game 36% from the floor, 4 TOs in 33 minutes a game acceptable for any high level prospect?
ooohh...but he doesnt HAVE to produce, right?

You are actually dull enough to think you've got me here. Are you aware that when I started asking you to explain how Gilchrist's one game where his team won handily vs Leonard's three games where his team was terrible, Gilchrist had only played 1 poor game?

Did you really think I'd just let you shift the argument to multiple poor games in a row from Gilchrist? Really?

And OF COURSE, Gilchrist gets docked for four straight games. Not as much as Leonard, since Gilchrist is a secondary scoring option on his team, but it absolutely changes once it becomes a pattern.

saying someone is potentially an NBA level starter is not specific especially if we're in a forum talking about NBA prospects.

2 games? no. after maui, all i basically said was that i was impressed by his performance. after subsequent viewings (10 in games in total). i said he's the best freshman PG i've seen this yr.

Please point me to the spot where if what you said about Burke isn't specific, what I said about Bertrand was specific. You are caught here, and you know it.

nah, im just saying if you're gonna use single or a string games against someone, then be consistent and use that against ALL prospects. im not shifting the argument at all. im smart enough not to hold single games or a string of games against a prospect. i'd rather look at the prospect's individual characteristics and skill level and try to project how they will translate to the next level.

ok. meyers leonard is a currently a projected lottery prospect, possible top 10.

hello_melo wrote:

I'm thinking Joseph Bertrand is just as good an NBA prospect as Leonard.