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Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans

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Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans 

Post#1 » by LittleOzzy » Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:45 pm

Whenever a general manager is hired, a figurative collar is attached to his neck and a length of rope is strung out behind him.

Eventually, the slack in that rope gets used up — by losses and bad contracts and missed deals and the simple passage of time. Then the collar begins to tighten.

For the first time in his nearly 2 ½ years as GM of the Blue Jays, Alex Anthopoulos has begun to feel the tugging.

Anthopoulos arrived with an unusual amount of rope to spare, some of it due to the ill-tempered flame-out of his predecessor and most of it to do with a sharp contrast in personal style from one man to the next. Anthopoulos was unusually humble and affable and local and has always treated his tenure as an opportunity for group discussion, rather than a series of thunderbolts from above.

He also has shown himself remarkably clever. A GM is not judged in the main by the performance of his franchise. He’s judged by the quality of his deals, most especially if he is perceived to have gotten one over on his contemporaries. That’s a ‘win’ for a GM.

Seen in close-up, unloading Vernon Wells and his titanically ill-advised long-term contract meant very little to the average fan. He wasn’t being paid with their money. But it set the template for Anthopoulos as a negotiator capable of getting other GMs to happily accept his refuse. Fans ate that right up.

Guided by the experienced political hand of Paul Beeston, Anthopoulos sold fans on the idea of a measured rise. Unlike his predecessor, he managed to convince them that radical change — even if it worked in the short term — was a bad idea. He turned patience, always one of the vices of sports, into his club’s primary virtue.

The expectation grew that Anthopoulos could think his way to playoff baseball. There are practical limits to that sort of team building. Anthopoulos has begun butting up against them this off-season.

If things begin going sideways — and they certainly haven’t yet — we will trace the first moments of unease to the winter meetings in Dallas. That was where he first referred to the ominous spectre of “payroll parameters,” subsequently amended to payroll “boundaries.” Whatever that actually means, it translates in the booster’s ear to, ‘We don’t have a whole lot of money to spend.’


http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/1 ... ience?bn=1
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Re: Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans 

Post#2 » by J-Roc » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:09 pm

Is this just talk from a current basketball writer, or did fans recently go after AA at some recent meet n greet? Seems to me Jays fans are still loving their rebuild.
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Re: Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans 

Post#3 » by LBJSeizedMyID » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:38 pm

It's divided. There are more on here who believe that AA's time to start putting pieces together is now, others don't oppose it necessarily, but see the actual plan starting to come into fruition. Really, this is the season which tells everyone whether the Jays have a legit product or have to start trading away some of their team.
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Re: Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans 

Post#4 » by Raps in 4 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:03 am

How can anyone fault AA? He's been arguably the best GM in baseball during his tenure here. He would love it if could splurge on a big name FA but he simply can't do that. Any blame for another fourth place finish should fall squarely on Rogers.
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Re: Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans 

Post#5 » by flatjacket1 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:08 am

UssjTrunks wrote:How can anyone fault AA? He's been arguably the best GM in baseball during his tenure here. He would love it if could splurge on a big name FA but he simply can't do that. Any blame for another fourth place finish should fall squarely on Rogers.


Again, not sure if you saw the article I brought up in another thread but its AA who shoots down Rogers FA ideas, not vica versa.

Any hate directed at the lack of FA signings should be placed squarely on AA.

Personally I'm cool with AA because he did a sick rebuild without FA and he has stated numerous times he will spend when the time is right.
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Re: Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans 

Post#6 » by Myth111 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:18 am

You posted that he refused to go after Lackey and Bay. I don't think anyone would criticize him for that. Were there other players I missed?
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Re: Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans 

Post#7 » by flatjacket1 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:25 am

Myth111 wrote:You posted that he refused to go after Lackey and Bay. I don't think anyone would criticize him for that. Were there other players I missed?


Well that seems to be 2/2. Both were considered to be premium players at the time. Lackey was 17th in the league in MVP voting just prior in 2007 and Jason Bay was in the MVP voting top 23 3 times, and most notably finished 7th the year that Paul Beeston wanted to go after him. He was a 5.1 WAR player.

Find me an article where Rogers restricted AA from going after a FA? Exactly. There are none.
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Re: Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans 

Post#8 » by Michael Bradley » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:50 am

The only mistake AA has made, and it is debatable whether he even had a choice in the matter, was trading Roy Halladay. I find it hard to believe that someone who places as much emphasis on value as AA does did not realize that keeping Halladay for a year and trying to appease him was a much better option than what eventually happened (trading him for 50 cents on the dollar for lottery tickets). If it was one more year of Halladay + a chance to re-sign him + 2 picks if he didn't versus trading him for Drabek, D'Arnaud, and Taylor/Wallace/Gose......,to me that is a no brainer. Unless the Jays got back Mike Stanton type talent, don't trade him. Halladay was unlike any player in pro sports, he was loyal.

But other than that, nothing AA has done 1) warrants criticism, or 2) has mislead the fanbase. It wasn't his fault that Joe Blowhard on Twitter said the Jays won the Darvish bid and somehow got thousands of Jays fans believing it (despite how ridiculous it was). AA has stuck with his plan. Either you believe in it or you don't, but he has stuck with it.

If anyone is testing the fans' patience, it is ownership. The way they have acted since 2009 shows me an ownership group that couldn't care less about the team on the field.
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Re: Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans 

Post#9 » by Homer Jay » Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:17 am

Michael Bradley wrote:The only mistake AA has made, and it is debatable whether he even had a choice in the matter, was trading Roy Halladay. I find it hard to believe that someone who places as much emphasis on value as AA does did not realize that keeping Halladay for a year and trying to appease him was a much better option than what eventually happened (trading him for 50 cents on the dollar for lottery tickets). If it was one more year of Halladay + a chance to re-sign him + 2 picks if he didn't versus trading him for Drabek, D'Arnaud, and Taylor/Wallace/Gose......,to me that is a no brainer. Unless the Jays got back Mike Stanton type talent, don't trade him. Halladay was unlike any player in pro sports, he was loyal.

But other than that, nothing AA has done 1) warrants criticism, or 2) has mislead the fanbase. It wasn't his fault that Joe Blowhard on Twitter said the Jays won the Darvish bid and somehow got thousands of Jays fans believing it (despite how ridiculous it was). AA has stuck with his plan. Either you believe in it or you don't, but he has stuck with it.

If anyone is testing the fans' patience, it is ownership. The way they have acted since 2009 shows me an ownership group that couldn't care less about the team on the field.


Nah Halladay staying was not an option. The B.J. Ryan situation irreplacably broke the relationship between the team and Halladay. Roy took Ryan's side, the organization took Cito's. Kind of crappy it went down like that, or that even the players would back a crappy player showing up his manager, just because he is really popular.
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Re: Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans 

Post#10 » by Parataxis » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:41 am

UssjTrunks wrote:How can anyone fault AA? He's been arguably the best GM in baseball during his tenure here. He would love it if could splurge on a big name FA but he simply can't do that.


You're confusing can't and won't.
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Re: Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans 

Post#11 » by Legal Non-Conforming » Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:21 pm

I thought the Kelly piece was spot on.

For all his brilliance, AA has yet to put together a competitive major league team. If MLB hadn't changed the playoff format, the Jays would have another year to develop. But the change has taken away one of the longstanding excuses used by the Jays organization ("how can we be expected to compete with the payroll of the Yankees and Red Sox"). I do think that AA is on the cusp this year---perhaps his patience with the minor league talent will pay off and they will finally play a meaningful game in September. But it is also possible that, without another top three starter and/or big bat to protect Bautista, they will again finish fourth and out of the playoffs. Unless Drabek and Snider take a step forward, their value will be greatly diminished at the end of the summer--that would be a setback for the organization. Accumulating minor league talent and saving money are not the same as fielding a playoff team. AA has yet to make that jump.
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Re: Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans 

Post#12 » by Al_Oliver » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:09 pm

UssjTrunks wrote:How can anyone fault AA? He's been arguably the best GM in baseball during his tenure here. He would love it if could splurge on a big name FA but he simply can't do that. Any blame for another fourth place finish should fall squarely on Rogers.


this
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Re: Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans 

Post#13 » by Michael Bradley » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:27 pm

Homer Jay wrote:
Michael Bradley wrote:The only mistake AA has made, and it is debatable whether he even had a choice in the matter, was trading Roy Halladay. I find it hard to believe that someone who places as much emphasis on value as AA does did not realize that keeping Halladay for a year and trying to appease him was a much better option than what eventually happened (trading him for 50 cents on the dollar for lottery tickets). If it was one more year of Halladay + a chance to re-sign him + 2 picks if he didn't versus trading him for Drabek, D'Arnaud, and Taylor/Wallace/Gose......,to me that is a no brainer. Unless the Jays got back Mike Stanton type talent, don't trade him. Halladay was unlike any player in pro sports, he was loyal.

But other than that, nothing AA has done 1) warrants criticism, or 2) has mislead the fanbase. It wasn't his fault that Joe Blowhard on Twitter said the Jays won the Darvish bid and somehow got thousands of Jays fans believing it (despite how ridiculous it was). AA has stuck with his plan. Either you believe in it or you don't, but he has stuck with it.

If anyone is testing the fans' patience, it is ownership. The way they have acted since 2009 shows me an ownership group that couldn't care less about the team on the field.


Nah Halladay staying was not an option. The B.J. Ryan situation irreplacably broke the relationship between the team and Halladay. Roy took Ryan's side, the organization took Cito's. Kind of crappy it went down like that, or that even the players would back a crappy player showing up his manager, just because he is really popular.


I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but I think the Halladay situation was handled poorly from 2009-onwards. IMO, AA had every opportunity to convince ownership to keep Halladay on board for a year and risk the fall out. Halladay was not a Scott Boras guy or an unreasonably difficult player to sign. If the team made an honest effort to win with him, I think the chances of him re-signing post-2010 were probably 50/50, rather than 10/90 as some believe. Obviously if they gave up like they did in 2009 then Roy would have left.

Like I said, I don't blame AA too much for that since he inherited that whole circus, but he was the one who ultimately pulled the trigger on the deal so if I have to find one fault in him, that is it. Other than that, he has been incredible, IMO.
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Re: Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans 

Post#14 » by Myth111 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:53 pm

flatjacket1 wrote:
Myth111 wrote:You posted that he refused to go after Lackey and Bay. I don't think anyone would criticize him for that. Were there other players I missed?


Well that seems to be 2/2. Both were considered to be premium players at the time. Lackey was 17th in the league in MVP voting just prior in 2007 and Jason Bay was in the MVP voting top 23 3 times, and most notably finished 7th the year that Paul Beeston wanted to go after him. He was a 5.1 WAR player.

Find me an article where Rogers restricted AA from going after a FA? Exactly. There are none.


Isn't this what makes him good though? He does not go by the consensus and decides for himself who is good. I do not want Fielder and maybe AA sees what I see in him. A fat guy who may lose it quicker than other players.

You really think AA does not have a budget from Rogers and can do whatever he wants? That is worse then people thinking Rogers is making a fortune off the Jays and just refusing to spend it.

I personally believe the Jays are not this profit-generator and therefore the team has a budget they must follow or they will lose a lot of money.
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Re: Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans 

Post#15 » by phillipmike » Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:48 pm

Halladay stated that he wouldnt re-sign with the Jays after his contract expired in 2010. He wanted a chance at the playoffs and the WS.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4677979

I cant find the other link where AA said it. But Halladay ONLY waived his NTC to go to Philly - no other team. As the Philly facility was close to his winter home and he felt the best place for him.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/b ... index.html

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/ ... aday-trade

So we either traded him to Philly or else he would walk after his deal and he likely signs in Philly and gain two picks.

So it is Drabek, D'Arnaud and Gose vs. the 27th pick and likely the 33rd pick (1st in the compensation round) in the 2010 draft.

AA did an excellent job landing a top 20 prospect in Drabek and two top 50 in D'Arnaud and Gose. Both Gose and D'Arnaud are expected to rise. Not bad for a player you could only trade to ONE team. JP couldnt get Drabek at the deadline and AA was able to.
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Re: Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans 

Post#16 » by flatjacket1 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:19 pm

Myth111 wrote:
flatjacket1 wrote:
Myth111 wrote:You posted that he refused to go after Lackey and Bay. I don't think anyone would criticize him for that. Were there other players I missed?


Well that seems to be 2/2. Both were considered to be premium players at the time. Lackey was 17th in the league in MVP voting just prior in 2007 and Jason Bay was in the MVP voting top 23 3 times, and most notably finished 7th the year that Paul Beeston wanted to go after him. He was a 5.1 WAR player.

Find me an article where Rogers restricted AA from going after a FA? Exactly. There are none.

Isn't this what makes him good though? He does not go by the consensus and decides for himself who is good. I do not want Fielder and maybe AA sees what I see in him. A fat guy who may lose it quicker than other players.
You really think AA does not have a budget from Rogers and can do whatever he wants? That is worse then people thinking Rogers is making a fortune off the Jays and just refusing to spend it.

I personally believe the Jays are not this profit-generator and therefore the team has a budget they must follow or they will lose a lot of money.


I like AA, I've said it before. All I'm saying is all of these people saying we should hate Rogers and not AA because we aren't signing Fielder is wrong.

AA does have a budget and realistically can sign anybody he wants. Its AA who is keeping us off Fielder, not Rogers. I'm sure AA has a price at which he would sign Fielder, but chances are some stupid team will overpay and take themselves out of the playoff picture (unless they harbor a massive payroll much like the least efficient team, the Yankees).

I'm a fan of AA's rebuild and I truly believe we are 2 or 3 Fielders away from playoffs, so we either need to spend unrealistic amounts of cash or wait a little bit longer. This fan base has grown inpatient ever since we had the smallest taste of success, and AA and Rogers have both said they will increase payroll when the time is right. For now we should wait on the Lawrie, Thames, Arencebia, Alvarez's of the team to be able to produce on a consistent level.

There will be more Fielders in future years (again I still say sign the guy if the price is right) and I think a Fielder type acquisition would be better in 2 years rather than now.

I agree with most of your points, but I'm just trying to say that its AA decision not to spend, not Rogers. Rogers have tried to go after near MVP level players, AA pulled the plug.

I'm a fan of AA but he deserves the hate for not signing Fielder. Personally I laugh at teams like the Angels because in 4 years when Pujols in 36, the team will be a joke for the remaining 6 years. I use the same logic with Fielder. 5 years, get er done but Fielder isn't asking 5 years.
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Re: Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans 

Post#17 » by Michael Bradley » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:48 pm

phillipmike wrote:Halladay stated that he wouldnt re-sign with the Jays after his contract expired in 2010. He wanted a chance at the playoffs and the WS.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4677979


Paul Beeston hasn't exactly been truthful over the past few years in any of the public comments he has made. I'm not saying he was lying about Halladay's intentions, but he wouldn't have gained anything by saying anything other than "Halladay won't re-sign".

Halladay is not an unreasonable guy. I will safely say he is probably the least selfish pro athlete in sports today. If the Jays gave him a reason to stay, he would have.


So we either traded him to Philly or else he would walk after his deal and he likely signs in Philly and gain two picks.

So it is Drabek, D'Arnaud and Gose vs. the 27th pick and likely the 33rd pick (1st in the compensation round) in the 2010 draft.

AA did an excellent job landing a top 20 prospect in Drabek and two top 50 in D'Arnaud and Gose. Both Gose and D'Arnaud are expected to rise. Not bad for a player you could only trade to ONE team. JP couldnt get Drabek at the deadline and AA was able to.


Halladay in 2010 + 27th and 33rd Pick in 2011.
OR
Drabek, D'Arnaud, and Taylor/Wallace/Gose.

The fact that the first scenario involved one more elite season out of Halladay leads me to side with that deal. If the 27th and 33rd picks ended up being Daniel Norris and Kevin Comer (for example), are the Jays really in any worse shape right now? No doubt D'Arnaud is a top 10 prospect in baseball and may become a star, but we have seen catching prospects rise and fall before. Gose is toolsy but risky, and Drabek even if he pans out is not a front of the rotation starter. At the end of the day, it is the best pitcher of his generation for three lottery tickets.

I do agree that AA made the best out of a bad situation. He was put into a situation where ownership lied to the fanbase and the team did not want to spend money so he may have felt forced to trade Roy, but I think some creativity, luck, and quite frankly some common sense could have kept him here. Common sense meaning "we have the best pitcher of this generation locked up for well below market value, let's take advantage of it".

Then again, we are right back in that spot with Bautista, except he has a few years left on his deal.
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Re: Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans 

Post#18 » by gei » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:09 pm

AA and Rogers have definitely been testing my patience - and lost it.

After all the Darvish/Fielder/etc hype I started looking in to ticket bundles and was even basing some of my travels around when the Jays would be in town.

However as it turns out, we've done nothing, and my patience has come to an end. I highly doubt I'll be going to any games this season.
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Re: Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans 

Post#19 » by augustine » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:54 pm

On the fan590 the other day, AA mentioned that spending increases will begin once, among other things, TV viewership rises. Let us make a note of the top six highest TV viewership in MLB:

Toronto Blue Jays RSN 507,000
New York Yankees YES 319,000
Philadelphia CSN 276,000
Boston NESN 192,000
New York Mets SNNY 163,000
San Francisco CSN 127,000

Moreover, TV viewership is already climbing:

"TORONTO (September 30, 2011) – Toronto Blue Jays audiences reached new heights this season on Rogers Sportsnet with an average television audience of 507,000, the network’s highest-season average ever. Jays on Sportsnet audiences were up 17 per cent compared to the 2010 average of 437,000 viewers.
(http://www.sportsnet.ca/pressroom/2011/ ... diencesup/)

Now, other teams are justifying big spending (Pujols, etc...) based on massive new TV contracts, but the Jays are the most viewed, and a fast growing TV program in MLB. Fans are not idiots. We know that TV viewership would already yield a massive TV contract if they were not owned by the same company. So, fans are justified in being upset that Rogers is not spending the money. The Jays continue to act like a small market team (we can't sign a FA, he is too expensive, etc...) when they are a large market team.
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Re: Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos is testing the fans 

Post#20 » by Legal Non-Conforming » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:05 pm

augustine wrote:On the fan590 the other day, AA mentioned that spending increases will begin once, among other things, TV viewership rises.


This line of reasoning really irks me. In what other line of business do they say "we will improve the product if you start buying it"? It's not a successful business model anywhere...
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