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Blue jays still a fourth place team?

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Re: Blue jays still a fourth place team? 

Post#21 » by flatjacket1 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:18 am

Randle McMurphy wrote:If Brett Lawrie is even half the player that he showed in that 40 game stretch last season, the Jays should win about 85 games. Some others like Rasmus and Arencibia will improve, I'm sure, I'd also be surprised if Bautista or Romero were quite as good as last season.

They really need to improve the rest of the offense (removing or platooning Lind) if they want to do much better than 85.


I wouldn't put much money on Arencebia improving. He is in his "prime" according to baseball aging curves. You don't see many 25 year old players take leaps forwards.

Even if it is an 85 win team, we are realistically 10 wins away from a playoff spot which is far too much to make up in FA (We are lucky to get 4 wins from Fielder).

Our offense was actually 6th in the league in runs scored, we were 25th in the league in runs against. Are you sure that its our offense that needs improving? Even with crap seasons from Lind, Colby and Hill we still were 6th. I personally think we need to increase run differential and allow fewer runs.
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Re: Blue jays still a fourth place team? 

Post#22 » by andyo » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:02 pm

Jimmy King wrote:I give the jays the edge because of the AL Beast factor. There is little doubt that the Jays could win over 95 games in the Central.

Edit: The Tigers went 50-22 against the Central last year.


This is a good point to consider...
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Re: Blue jays still a fourth place team? 

Post#23 » by LBJSeizedMyID » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:14 pm

flatjacket1 wrote:
Randle McMurphy wrote:If Brett Lawrie is even half the player that he showed in that 40 game stretch last season, the Jays should win about 85 games. Some others like Rasmus and Arencibia will improve, I'm sure, I'd also be surprised if Bautista or Romero were quite as good as last season.

They really need to improve the rest of the offense (removing or platooning Lind) if they want to do much better than 85.


I wouldn't put much money on Arencebia improving. He is in his "prime" according to baseball aging curves. You don't see many 25 year old players take leaps forwards.

Even if it is an 85 win team, we are realistically 10 wins away from a playoff spot which is far too much to make up in FA (We are lucky to get 4 wins from Fielder).

Our offense was actually 6th in the league in runs scored, we were 25th in the league in runs against. Are you sure that its our offense that needs improving? Even with crap seasons from Lind, Colby and Hill we still were 6th. I personally think we need to increase run differential and allow fewer runs.


Actually catchers have a longer curve since their job is one of the toughest in baseball, so there's a slight chance he improves, though I'm not putting much stock into it as his swing looks too long most of the time.
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Re: Blue jays still a fourth place team? 

Post#24 » by BobbyBoy » Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:49 pm

Just to add something, the jays were 9 wins behind the red sox, and they didn't even make the playoffs.
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Re: Blue jays still a fourth place team? 

Post#25 » by guvernator » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:17 pm

BobbyBoy wrote:Just to add something, the jays were 9 wins behind the red sox, and they didn't even make the playoffs.

who were 1 game behind the WC rays. whats your point?
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Re: Blue jays still a fourth place team? 

Post#26 » by Kapono » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:26 pm

Really disappointed with this off season. In order for us to be able to make the playoffs a few things needs to happen:

-A 2nd wild card needs to be added for this year
-Two of Red Sox/Rays/Rangers/Angels need to suffer from injuries and have a lot of players with down years
-We need to stay healthy
-Need to have career years by a lot of players, young players need to improve drastically

Slim chance :(
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Re: Blue jays still a fourth place team? 

Post#27 » by BobbyBoy » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:27 pm

guvernator wrote:
BobbyBoy wrote:Just to add something, the jays were 9 wins behind the red sox, and they didn't even make the playoffs.

who were 1 game behind the WC rays. whats your point?

I'm just saying it gonna take a more than prince fielder to make the playoffs
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Re: Blue jays still a fourth place team? 

Post#28 » by Fairview4Life » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:19 pm

BobbyBoy wrote:
guvernator wrote:
BobbyBoy wrote:Just to add something, the jays were 9 wins behind the red sox, and they didn't even make the playoffs.

who were 1 game behind the WC rays. whats your point?

I'm just saying it gonna take a more than prince fielder to make the playoffs


How about internal improvement and Prince Fielder and an extra playoff spot? Or signing Prince Fielder now since there is far less competition for his services than would occur normally, and then making the playoffs when some of the young pitchers can come up in a few years?

It is incredibly disingenuous to keep arguing that Prince Fielder isn't enough to make the playoffs as you snidely argue for not signing him at all. He gets us a whole hell of a lot closer than anything else the Jays could do, and all he'd cost is money. The Jays might even hit MLB average payroll.
9. Similarly, IF THOU HAST SPENT the entire offseason predicting that thy team will stink, thou shalt not gloat, nor even be happy, shouldst thou turn out to be correct. Realistic analysis is fine, but be a fan first, a smug smarty-pants second.
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Re: Blue jays still a fourth place team? 

Post#29 » by torontoaces04 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:43 pm

The way our roster stands currently, we'd be lucky to go 81 and 81 again. The Jays over-achieved last season. The Yankees have certainly improved, and the Rays nucleus is a year older. The Red-Sox vastly under-achieved last season, and the same could be said for the Orioles.

Forget about being the 4th best team in the division, I'm just hoping we don't end up 5th. My guess as our roster stands currently, 75-87.
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Re: Blue jays still a fourth place team? 

Post#30 » by Randle McMurphy » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:29 pm

torontoaces04 wrote:The way our roster stands currently, we'd be lucky to go 81 and 81 again. The Jays over-achieved last season. The Yankees have certainly improved, and the Rays nucleus is a year older. The Red-Sox vastly under-achieved last season, and the same could be said for the Orioles.

The Jays played with scrubs in their lineup for half the season by choice. The team didn't overachieve. The roster as a whole is much better in 2012.


Forget about being the 4th best team in the division, I'm just hoping we don't end up 5th. My guess as our roster stands currently, 75-87.

I remember the last person who claimed the Orioles would finish ahead of the Jays here. Don't believe it worked out for him.
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Re: Blue jays still a fourth place team? 

Post#31 » by Randle McMurphy » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:31 pm

BobbyBoy wrote:
guvernator wrote:
BobbyBoy wrote:Just to add something, the jays were 9 wins behind the red sox, and they didn't even make the playoffs.

who were 1 game behind the WC rays. whats your point?

I'm just saying it gonna take a more than prince fielder to make the playoffs

You don't know this. It might, it might not. That would largely depend on the production of the other players around him.

Having Fielder in the lineup, though, would only likely increase the production of others and remove the weakest link of the team (Lind).
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Re: Blue jays still a fourth place team? 

Post#32 » by guvernator » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:35 pm

I remember the last person who claimed the Orioles would finish ahead of the Jays here. Don't believe it worked out for him.


Its customary for atleast some support for Orioles to finish 4th every season.
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Re: Blue jays still a fourth place team? 

Post#33 » by satyr9 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:45 pm

torontoaces04 wrote:The way our roster stands currently, we'd be lucky to go 81 and 81 again. The Jays over-achieved last season. The Yankees have certainly improved, and the Rays nucleus is a year older. The Red-Sox vastly under-achieved last season, and the same could be said for the Orioles.

Forget about being the 4th best team in the division, I'm just hoping we don't end up 5th. My guess as our roster stands currently, 75-87.


First, if that's your stance on the current roster, why would you want to spend FA money on Prince and/or Darvish? What is the absolute best you could hope for out of those two combined? 10 wins? So now you've spent an extra 40m per year and you have, by your reckoning, an 85 win team. Okay, so now they just need a 130-140m payroll to get to 90 wins and 150-160 to really compete, especially since you've already set a pretty firm bar on how much you're willing to spend for an extra win or 5. You think maybe if Rogers actually opened up the purse strings and that outcome occurred, they might regret it to the long-term detriment of us Jays fans?

Second, do you remember our opening day roster a year ago? The one that ended up 81-81? A quick refresher:

Arencibia
Lind
Hill
Encarnacion
Escobar
Snider
Davis
Bautista
Encarnacion

Molina
McDonald
Nix
Patterson

Romero
Drabek
Cecil
Litsch
Reyes

Rauch
Janssen
Frasor
Camp
Villanueva
Rzepczynski
Purcey

DL
Morrow
Dotel
Francisco

Compare that to what is projected already for this year and you'll find, at a minimum, 10 upgrades without factoring in internal stuff, like Arencibia continuing to improve or Lind bouncing back or Morrow putting it all together. There's a long time between now and October is all.

Granted, not all upgrades are equal by any stretch of the imagination (Pujols over Trumbo is obviously a lot bigger than Santos over Rauch), but you'd be incredibly hard-pressed to find other clubs with that amount of widespread and consensus improvement. That's one of the reasons AA has been jokingly (at least when I do it I'm kidding...mostly) revered as some sort of demigod until recently.

Still, I can see this club going 75-87 under the right conditions. Unlike the biggest spenders the edge of success will always be thinner for small and mid-market clubs. TB for example has had fantastic health and results, but they straddle a razor thin line to maintain their success (and do a remarkable job, I'm not knocking them by any stretch).

One thing that the money most definitely buys is insurance. To me, the benefit of the extra 50-100m is not a higher ceiling (okay that's inaccurate, but that's not what they're spending for) it's the dramatically higher floor. If the Yanks all had career years they'd be the best baseball team in the history of sports and would struggle to lose 30 games, but that's never going to happen. What 200m gets them is a ton of wiggle room. No ARod for 50 games, no sweat. Same for anybody else on their team. Take off 3 guys from the rotation for a month at the same time, they'll still hang around.

So sure, the Jays hit a few extra bumps, not even statistically super improbable ones, and they're looking at a rough season, but equally if those bumps turn into positives and you've just swung a 75 team into a 90 team easy, at least that's how I see it. It would take a colossal confluence of bad juju for the Yanks or Sox to fall to 75 games, but 90 is well within their margins. Your projections seem to forego even the possibility of 90 being in this team's grasp as currently constructed or even as it's improved the way it has the last two years. If that's the case, I don't understand why the call for Rogers to pony up on a loser.
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Re: Blue jays still a fourth place team? 

Post#34 » by Michael Bradley » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:31 am

torontoaces04 wrote:The way our roster stands currently, we'd be lucky to go 81 and 81 again. The Jays over-achieved last season. The Yankees have certainly improved, and the Rays nucleus is a year older. The Red-Sox vastly under-achieved last season, and the same could be said for the Orioles.

Forget about being the 4th best team in the division, I'm just hoping we don't end up 5th. My guess as our roster stands currently, 75-87.


The Jays did not overachieve last season. They spent the first half of the season running absolute scrubs out there (Patterson, Rivera, Nix, etc), and inexplicably gave Jo Jo Reyes 20 starts. They had arguably the worst 2B production in baseball for the majority of the season. They had a bullpen that was largely ineffective as a whole. If a team finishes .500 in the toughest division in baseball with all that, then I wouldn't say they overachieved. If anything, the Jays are one of the teams most likely to have an upswing next season given the amount of talent they have coming off down seasons that are almost surely going to improve next season. Of course, it may not be noticeable since they play in the AL East.

As I said before, AA is building this team in hopes of having a Tampa Bay Rays-2008 type season where everything clicks. It wouldn't surprise me if the Jays have that type of season, but it is not incredibly likely. Regardless, they should be MUCH improved over last season. Whether it shows up in their record depends on how well NYY/BOS/TAM do.
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Re: Blue jays still a fourth place team? 

Post#35 » by BobbyBoy » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:12 am

You said above that we gave jojo Reyes 20 starts, but right now I think our rotation looks like this
1. Romero
2. Morrow
3. Alavarez
4. Cecil
5. McGowan/drabek/anyone else
In my opinion McGowan is kind of like Reyes. McGowan has better track record, but I don't think he will perform that great, but I dont know that for sure. Drabek has great potential, but he wasn't great last year and could very well be as bad as Reyes. Reyes could have done good last year. So what I'm trying to say is, McGowan and Drabek are just as big of questions as Reyes was.
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Re: Blue jays still a fourth place team? 

Post#36 » by Randle McMurphy » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:56 am

Even a 30 year old Dustin McGowan coming off a terrible shoulder injury is a far better bet for producing than JoJo Reyes.

That's how bad JoJo is.
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