Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread (Part 1)

[Ruhiel]

Horford's #s are a product of Joe Johnson and Josh Smith.

You can't prove your point by saying he has been on one playoff team. Is that really his fault?

How many players can single-handedly make you a playoff team with Maggette, Drew Gooden, and Jennings?

Lebron?

It seems you are giving Horford to much credit for being the 4th option year in year out. Tyson Chandler just won a championship as a 4th/5th option. Perkins was a 5th option.

A 5th option center. Gets his usage from putbacks, assisted dunks etc.

Horford is a 4th option.
Bogut is a 1st option who would be our 4th/5th option. He See? And you have no merit gauging players.

You have never watched Bucks basketball and if you have you're looking at the wrong things. Bogut has to iso create everything for himself and teammates.
When has Horford ever shown he can be a winner doing that?

Horford has been bad in iso as well. They need to be spoonfed by star players. Thats why they're both 4th option type centers. See?

AST% (assisted field goal %)
54.0
60.0
57.4
52.4
48.2
56.5

AST% (assisted field goal %)
66.7
66.3
65.3
69.4
57.9

AST% (assisted field goal %)
61.0
71.9
60.6
74.4
80.6


One player is Bogut, one Chandler, one is Horford. If Horford is so talented then you should be able to say that he is the least assisted player in the group correct?

It's as if you're penalizing Bogut for not being a center able to carry a team to the playoffs by himself. Only center in the League doing that is Dwight Howard.

Horford's luster has worn off and its simply not true. There are a handful of centers that could play FOURTH banana to Teague, Smith, and Joe Johnson. And Bogut is one of them.

Your stance on Bogut vs Horford is a byproduct of Horford being drafted onto a team that had stars elsewhere and a major hole at the center position. Al filled that hole.

[parson]

Ruhiel, man, I love ya, but you've got a huge blind spot when it comes to Horford.

[Ruhiel]

My argument was with "superior". Why does Bogut get discredited for being forced to be a 1st option?

Can you say that Horford would make playoffs with that team if they swapped places and they force fed him every play?

[Superiorblogman]

My argument was with "superior". Why does Bogut get discredited for being forced to be a 1st option?

Can you say that Horford would make playoffs with that team if they swapped places and they force fed him every play?

Horford is not the 4th option and seriously the luster has worn off of all the Hawks with the exception of Teague. The problem with this team was seen last night no finishers. Josh and Al both are better finishers than Joe and Jeff so they should be 1 and 2. Jeff is still the 4th option and in a perfect scenario we would get 1 more guy better at finishing than him and he would be the 5th option better defining his responsibilities. You try to diss Al and create greatness where there is non with Bogut. Finally, Bogut, Love, all those guys are losers to me. Kevin Garnett took much worse teams than what the Bucks currently have to the playoffs. Even his best teams were no better than what the Bucks have. Sam Cassell and Sprewell were his best teammates. Brandon Jennings and Stephen Jackson are the equivalent or better. Bogut, is a loser. Very overrated.

[Ruhiel]

Stopped actually reading at Al Horford's not the 4th option. If I'm "hating" then Prove that statement.


There's usage %, FGA per game of which Horford only gets 9.

Al only gets 9 FGA. It's anal arguing with you because you never back anything up.

You just decree something and go with it as if its true because you're "superior".

Johnson, Smith, Teague, (Horford, Vlad, Marvin) That's the order.

Just skimming along...your last sentence is a tangent instead of talking of Bogut as a 4th option vs Horford then you start talking about Hall of Famer Kevin Garnett.... No Bogut isn't the level of Kevin Garnett. But what's the point of that. Nothing but showing you're clouded thinking.

What does Bogut vs Kevin Garnett have to do with Bogut vs Horford? Is Al Horford = Kevin Garnett in your mind?


Stephen Jackson and Brandon Jennings are = or greater thanSprewell and Sam Cassell ? I won't even touch that one. But smh...Back to the topic.

No arguing Horford is the 4th option for his team. Or that his teammates handling the 1st,2nd, and 3rd options allows him to greatly benefit by playing defense and filling holes as an efficient 4th option.

This is Bogut vs Horford.
Bogut is a failed 1st option but would make a lovely 4th option. I'm sorry. You've proven nothing to the contrary. But I hope that you are a child because your arguing points are terrible.

[Weezy2189]

This trade couldn't be done until March 1st due to McRoberts signing a recent contract

Lakers trade: Gasol, Blake, Fisher, McRoberts, Mavs 1st, (Use their Trade Exception)
Lakers get: Josh Smith, Augustin, Tyrus, Hinrich, Zaza

C-Bynum/ Zaza
PF-Smith/ Tyrus
SF-Artest/ Barnes
SG-Kobe
PG-Augustin/Hinrich

Lakers do this because: they get 2 PG's that will help them sooo much better then Blake and Fisher...Augustin is playing great this year and would be an ideal fit with the Lakers...Hinrich will be good to go in early February and will add great defense to this backcourt and can play the 2 guard as well...until he's healthy, they can continue to run with Morris as the back up PG...Now as far as Gasol goes, yes he will be missed...BUT they turn him into THREE big bodies...Josh Smith will space out the floor more for Bynum and is a lot younger and cheaper then Gasol, plus tougher...Tyrus and Zaza will be great off the bench, providing rebounds and gritty defense

On a side note, if the Magic are desperate, they could still trade Dwight for Bynum, picks and whatever...you know Dwight would love playing with Josh Smith...that might not be enough for the Magic, but who knows???...Bynum has looked really good thus far this season

Hawks trade: Josh Smith, Zaza, Hinrich
Hawks get: Gasol, Diaw, Fisher

C-Gasol/ Diaw
PF-Horford/ Vlad
SF-Marvin
SG-Johnson/ TMac
PG-Teague/Fisher

Hawks do this because: they get Gasol! This adds size to the front court that the Hawks have been needing...Gasol would look great beside Horford...now another great thing about this trade is that they add Diaw, who could fill in at PF while Horford is out for the next couple months...I've seen a lot of people say a Josh Smith/Teague for Gasol trade...but this allows them to keep their up and coming PG...losing Zaza wont be too bad, cuz once Horford comes back, Diaw can play the back up PF or Center spot...this is a win now trade obviously for the Hawks

Bobcats trade: Augustin, Diaw, Tyrus
Bobcats get: Blake, McRoberts, Mavs 1st

C-Mullins/Biyombo
PF-White/McRoberts
SF-Magette
SG-Henderson/Reggie Williams
PG-Blake/Kemba

Bobcats do this because: they are making more roster moves for a complete rebuild...Diaw is already on the block...not cuz he's bad, cuz he isnt motivated...he knows this isn't a playoff team...on the Hawks, I think the versatile Diaw will be be back to his old self...also, while losing their best player in Augustin, they know they have to with Kemba as the future...they get Mavs 1st rounder and Steve Blake, whose contract is fine and can move to backup whenever Kemba is ready to start...McRoberts is looking solid this year and I think could find a nice role on this team...not to mention, they get to move Tyrus' contract, leaving their amnesty clause for Gana Diop or Magette if they want to use it on either of them

[ZA ZA ZA]

are you sure you're not a Laker fan? That deal is horrible for both Hawks and Bobcats.

[Weezy2189]

The bobcats need to get rid of Tyrus and that horrible contract...we all know how much of a mistake it was to sign him, so giving him away would be fine with me!...and packaging DJ and Diaw for a young player, pick and backup PG might be all we can get...i just want cap flexibility, so we can rebuild right

Now I posted this here because I wanted to see what ATL did/didn't like about it...is it that you are giving up too much? Is it your just not a Gasol fan? Personally, I thought having a more traditional big man vs. Josh Smith would be good for you. Maybe I'm wrong

[Superiorblogman]

You are a Al Horford hating trolling clown if you really think Al is the 4th option on this team. I have no more words for you on this subject.

[Superiorblogman]

As a Hawks fan I will pass on this. Gasol is not the type of Center I want, and I doubt that he is any more of a Center than Al Horford is but they probably would work well together.

Like I already proposed I would be willing to send Kirk Hinrich to the Lakers for there TPE+1 of there 1st rounders+ 1 of Ebanks or Morris.

Other than that, there is nothing I really want from the Lakers and all that other stuff from the Bobcats I will pass.

[dms269]

Merged the topic into this thread.

[dms269]

Who has said Smith and Teague for Gasol? Definitely not Atlanta fans.

This trade is horrible for the Hawks. Gasol is older and much more highly paid than Smith. Atlanta would have to deal with JJ's and Gasol's big deals. Smith isn't traditional, but that is fine.

Diaw is not wanted. He isn't a true big man and really hasn't done much since his Suns days. Atlanta had him once, it didn't work out. At 6'8" I don't want him playing center. The Hawks also downgrade from Hinrich to Fisher.

[Ruhiel]

You are a Al Horford hating trolling clown if you really think Al is the 4th option on this team. I have no more words for you on this subject.

Wow. What is wrong with your brain? The argument is not whether Al Horford is the 4th option. The argument is if he should get more shots to become a higher option.

What is he then 2nd,3rd? First? Of course you have no words because you're too immature to express them.

Johnson - 1, Smith - 2, Teague - 3, 4th - Zaza/Al

That is how it is on average. Any fan will tell you you're wrong but you're keeping yourself from that by refusing to name a number.

[Superiorblogman]

You are a Al Horford hating trolling clown if you really think Al is the 4th option on this team. I have no more words for you on this subject.

Wow. What is wrong with your brain? The argument is not whether Al Horford is the 4th option. The argument is if he should get more shots to become a higher option.

What is he then 2nd,3rd? First? Of course you have no words because you're too immature to express them.

Johnson - 1, Smith - 2, Teague - 3, 4th - Zaza/Al

That is how it is on average. Any fan will tell you you're wrong but you're keeping yourself from that by refusing to name a number.

Dude, the amount of shot attempts you take is not the deciding factor in what option you are. That is about the most ludicrous thing you have ever typed.

Your effectiveness is the deciding factor. Doesn't matter how many you take it is how many you make. In what world is the most effective and efficient player a less desirable option than guys less efficient? You are just over the top with your Horford foolishness. He is without a doubt better option to finish a shot than Teague or Joe and he is a better option to finish a shot and take a quality one than Josh IMO.

[Ruhiel]

Efficiency determines what option you are?

Trust me USG% is a better indicator of who's the pecking order of offense. Horford is the 4th option guy.



Go tell Lakers fans that Pau is the #1 option followed by Bynum followed by Kobe Bryant.
As of now that's what True Shooting % says. Efficiency #'s?

Then Bogut must be his teams fourth option and Tyson Chandler is the 1st options for Dallas.

Efficiency?
'08 Celtics? Kendrick Perkins
'11 Mavs? Tyson Chandler
Hawks every year? Al Horford
'12 Lakers? Gasol, then Bynum, then Bryant
'12 Hawks? Horford, McGrady, Pachulia, Radmanovic,


Horford is ATL's 1st option? Perkins, Tyson Chandler?

Efficiency. Thats your parameter correct? Not who has the ball more (indicated by USG%) and who creates the shot...

As I said Bogut is MIL's 1st option and would be a monster 4th option in ATL.

[Superiorblogman]

The Kobe being less efficient than Horford is a good argument, but that is also the reason people always ask are the Lakers better with Kobe taking a bunch of shots or him deferring to others that can get better shots and simply shots closer at the rim. Al Horford gets better and easier shots than anyone on the team and he has better recognition of a good shot than anyone on the team. No way that guy is your fourth option on a winning team. Any guard can take more shots than bigs because they have the ball in hands more in theory. I am not sure of the best way to decide your order of options but your opinions make little sense to me. The most effective and efficient person in theory would be the best person to be your #1 option if winning is your thing. Think about it this way. You are running a business and you need someone to a do a job. Person A can get the job done in 4 hours, while person B can get it done in 8 hours, you are paying them the same amount. You definitely want to hire person A unless you just like giving money away and that is not what running a business is about. So, how much or how often you use someone is definitely not it. What they do with that time is more of it. If I need one shot I am running a play with Al and Joe. Most sturdy in the head and if they make Joe give it up I would be fine with Al taking the shot or making a decision over Josh. The next combo would actually be the Joe and Jeff play.

[Ruhiel]

You say you don't know how to decide but criticize me saying Horford is 4th.

Horford recognizes a "better shot" because options 1,2, and 3 create them for him.

Joe Johnson in Phoenix didn't recognize a "better shot" next to Nash? He wanted to be option A in ATL. The option is the threat to score. Like Steve Nash says you have to be a threat to score to draw attention.

And thats how you decide. Who's the biggest threat to score, who has the ball and is he a scoring threat. I said 1-Joe, 2-Smith, 3-Teague are the threats, and the 4th option is the guy standing waiting for an opening provided by them.

Your "theory" states that game on the line I could trade Bogut for Perkins off the 08 Celtics, put Bogut on the Celtics and he'd be a better #1 option. And that Perkins was the #1 option on the Celtics.

And your theory makes Horford is the #1 for ATL. That's why media pundits are so stupid when it comes to the Hawks.
All they see is shooting % and start complaining about more touches.

Horford as a scoring threat is the 4th option. And game on the line he should not be getting the ball either unless its some guard creating a pick and pop. Nonetheless...4th option that doesn't get many touches.

On the Bucks Bogut is the #1 option and you punish him for that.

1, Iso Joe.
2, Iso Josh.
3, Iso Jeff.
4, Horford, Zaza, Marvin

That's how the usage % goes. That's FGA and the gap's considerable seeing as how Teague is the PG.
Like I pondered before whether Horford's assists would maintain with Teague at the helm.

They did not. I don't know how anyone can argue Horford needs more touches yet call me foolish for saying he is the 4th option. And then to top off the debate you refuse to name what option he actually is.
Only explanation is "fanaticism".

Playing Both sides of the fence there.

-----
"If I need one shot I am running a play with Al and Joe". You don't need one shot. You need multiple shots over the course of the game.

That's like saying Shaq was not the #1 option because of Hack-a-Shaq to end games. Over the course of the game who is going to score the ball.

Your plan is to run Al and Joe pick and pops all day? Do I really need to post the Deng video again? Did you ever really, really watch it?

Over the course of the game Horford becomes a 4th option. And since this is the trade thread I'd rather have a 7 footer like Bogut for his 2 sided presence and size on the boards.

Like Pachulia who knows he's not getting the ball but offensive rebounds our misses. But Bogut actually can make a layup.

[Superiorblogman]

I don't know if there is any one concrete way to decide who is first option and neither do you and that is the bottomline. It can not stop with any of your vague proposals. Nash could get Joe shots and he could finish. It is easy that he is the 1st option. Teague can get people shots but he is not a consistent finisher at this stage. Joe can get people shots and he can finish. Al does not really get others shots but he can finish. Josh can not be trusted to get others shots but he can finish. Joe is the clear 1 even though I wish we had a better 1. Al is the clear 2 even though he needs others to create for him. Honestly, Josh is the last person who needs the ball in decision making time. Look at how he almost threw the game away last night. He gets the rebound, tries to bring it up, throws a ill-advised pass that gets picked off then Joe bails him out by stealing the ball from Matthews and Teague finishes. Josh tries to do things he should not do that's why he should be the 3rd or 4th option on this team as currently constructed.

[dms269]

Guys,

Try and keep this to actually discussions about trades that are proposed.

[Ruhiel]

This guy...

Al can't create for others thats why he's the #4.

This isn't about Josh. It's Al vs Bogut.

Al's touches lead to passes back to the perimeter. Remember Jamal? We let that go because it was so ugly to watch and easy to stop.
Also easy to stop in the playoffs is the pick and fade Al did. We can go with lobs from set plays but even then Al is not getting more touches than Smith.

"Al does not really get others shots but he can finish. Al is the clear 2 even though he needs others to
create for him."

Soooo, he does not really get other shots, and he needs others to create for him.
For better or worse, Josh Smith and Teague are the bigger mismatches on most nights.
Yes, our point guard shoots more and creates more than him.

We have 3 better guys in Josh, Joe, and Jeff. They are not creating for anybody but they are finishers of broken plays.

Anyone can tell you that Smith and Teague are ahead of Horford as they should be. Especially now.
Zaza and Al are neck in neck in Usage%.
Bogut would be a monster 4th option.