Official Raptors 2012 NBA Draft Thread, Part 4

JamesNaismith · Post #361 » by **JamesNaismith** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:37 am

I don't think there's anything wrong with Barnes......but there's also nothing great either.

(and no I don't mean a particular facet about his game because his shooting is nice; all I mean is he doesn't seem like he'll be amongst the BEST in the league BUT there's nothing really too much to complain about because he will be solid - just some people need to keep their expectations in line)

Pseudonym · Post #362 » by **Pseudonym** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:41 am

The way things are looking, it's one of the ADs or bust.

DarkKnight · Post #363 » by **DarkKnight** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:48 am

Barnes is still the best fit for the raps in this draft and there's a good chance he'll be the best player from it as well. Pierce (who others have mentioned in various capacities) is actually a very good comp. Prototype SF size, more shooter than slasher but more than enough dribble-drive game to keep teams honest. Terrific defender and solid rebounder. He's also a Kobe-level worker off the court and has a great demeanor and personality.

The guy who mentioned that the carolina system holds Barnes back a bit is correct. There's very little pick and roll or dribble drive for the wing guys, as most of the offense originates in the post or with the PG. He's also playing relatively light minutes - if you project his numbers to Lamb's minutes you'd see more people on the Barnes bandwagon.

He may be more Pierce or Harden than Vince or Lebron, but not all top players have to be dunk-contest competitors. He's a level or 2 better right now than Demar is and some still think he can be a star just because he can dunk it big.

DarkKnight · Post #364 » by **DarkKnight** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:02 am

Oh, and to those who are knocking Williams' record with his kids being drafted not turning into superstars: this is true of pretty much every major college coach. There are only a handful of NBA superstars and many of them skipped college before the 1-and-done rule was put in (Garnett, mcgrady, james, bryant, D12etc). Many more were 1-and-done guys who got very little influence from their college coaches (Durant, Rose, Griffin, Love, etc). A bunch more are from overseas (Dirk, Pau, Yao, etc) And a few more went to schools that rarely produce NBA talents at all (Wade, Deron, etc.).

So what coach really has a great track record of molding NBA stars? Coach K has more misses than hits. Same with Roy, Boeheim, Barnes, Matta, etc. It's just the way it is.

Rapsfan07 · Post #365 » by **Rapsfan07** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:05 am

Can't lie...starting to feel the Barnes vibe. Not sure I'm sold yet...gotta see more dribble drive and getting to the line. But from Day 1 his character has always been the type that BC likes to draft and it wouldn't surprise me if he ended up being the pick me make on draft night. I still think he'll be a Rudy Gay kind of player though...which is not a knock at all because I'm a huge Rudy fan. If his work ethic is a great at it sounds, I think he might be our guy. Just a bit nervous about him still though.

Still love Q. Mill's confidence, swagger and game though. Would love to see Baylor put the ball in his hands more and go to him more offensively. His handles don't look as good as they did in high school...seems like he got away with a lot of carrying. Anyways, those are the 2 SF's I have my eye on.

MKG is great but I don't think he's our guy. Plays great D, rebounds, can handle the ball and stuff but I personally would rather swing for the fences in hopes of landing a high-end piece. But if he's BPA, I'd take him.

Ultimately though, I'm still intrigued by Drummond, I must admit.

Mr.Raptorsingh · Post #366 » by **Mr.Raptorsingh** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:07 am

DarkKnight wrote:Barnes is still the best fit for the raps in this draft and there's a good chance he'll be the best player from it as well. Pierce (who others have mentioned in various capacities) is actually a very good comp. Prototype SF size, more shooter than slasher but more than enough dribble-drive game to keep teams honest. Terrific defender and solid rebounder. He's also a Kobe-level worker off the court and has a great demeanor and personality.

The guy who mentioned that the carolina system holds Barnes back a bit is correct. There's very little pick and roll or dribble drive for the wing guys, as most of the offense originates in the post or with the PG. He's also playing relatively light minutes - if you project his numbers to Lamb's minutes you'd see more people on the Barnes bandwagon.

He may be more Pierce or Harden than Vince or Lebron, but not all top players have to be dunk-contest competitors. He's a level or 2 better right now than Demar is and some still think he can be a star just because he can dunk it big.

I'm with you on Barnes. Like you said, I just think he'd fit us best out of pretty much all of the prospects when you look at what we're lacking. It's kind of both drafting based on need and he's probably going to be BPA when we pick.

I was blown away by his game last night in particular. He showed the ability to put it on the floor, pretty much did whatever the heck he wanted to do with the ball.

And with respect to JamesNaismith's comment, I feel like my expectations are in check with what he's capable of - you know he's going to defend and shoot it at a respectable level right off the bat. And with Andrea drawing attention, he's going to get clean looks at the basket. Just tailor-made for our current personnel.

Crazy-Canuck · Post #367 » by **Crazy-Canuck** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:13 am

if DD is in our future plans, then Barnes or Miller make more sense and fills a need.

But i still believe that MKG is the best swing in the draft and would be my guy IF there is any doubt about DD's future with the team.

JamesNaismith · Post #368 » by **JamesNaismith** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:21 am

Mr.Raptorsingh wrote:And with respect to JamesNaismith's comment, I feel like my expectations are in check with what he's capable of - you know he's going to defend and shoot it at a respectable level right off the bat. And with Andrea drawing attention, he's going to get clean looks at the basket. Just tailor-made for our current personnel.

I wouldn't say tailormade because I don't think our roster is good enough to start "fitting" pieces but I get what you mean. If DeMar could get to the rim like say Tyreke Evans (and no I don't want Reke here not a fan of his personality) then yes he would be perfect. Problem is almost no one has the ability to create their own shot.....now if we were THE luckiest team next year and drafted Shabazz then 100% Barnes would be a perfect fit.....for now he's a good one.

My biggest problem has always been that our team is not good enough to be swayed by "fit". The thread is vague on if we're stating who's the best, who's the most potential or just who we think realistically we get. But if it's on BPA then the AD's are just above everyone else imo, I have Lamb/Barnes/PJ3 a notch under and then MKG/Miller below them (but I just need to see Miller be what he was in highschool in the next couple months cuz then he's just under ADs and above Barnes n co. for me OR unfortunately he'll remain a 3rd tier prospect).

DarkKnight · Post #369 » by **DarkKnight** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:30 am

JamesNaismith wrote:
Mr.Raptorsingh wrote:And with respect to JamesNaismith's comment, I feel like my expectations are in check with what he's capable of - you know he's going to defend and shoot it at a respectable level right off the bat. And with Andrea drawing attention, he's going to get clean looks at the basket. Just tailor-made for our current personnel.

I wouldn't say tailormade because I don't think our roster is good enough to start "fitting" pieces but I get what you mean. If DeMar could get to the rim like say Tyreke Evans (and no I don't want Reke here not a fan of his personality) then yes he would be perfect. Problem is almost no one has the ability to create their own shot.....now if we were THE luckiest team next year and drafted Shabazz then 100% Barnes would be a perfect fit.....for now he's a good one.

My biggest problem has always been that our team is not good enough to be swayed by "fit". The thread is vague on if we're stating who's the best, who's the most potential or just who we think realistically we get. But if it's on BPA then the AD's are just above everyone else imo, I have Lamb/Barnes/PJ3 a notch under and then MKG/Miller below them (but I just need to see Miller be what he was in highschool in the next couple months cuz then he's just under ADs and above Barnes n co. for me OR unfortunately he'll remain a 3rd tier prospect).

I think the hype on the ADs has gotten a bit out of hand next to their actual games/production. Drummond especially has been mediocre this season and is living off his HS hype as a prospect. His FT shooting is abysmal and he hasn't shown he's more than an upside/project big. Davis, on the other hand, produces at a very high level and should be a plus defender from day 1 but super-thin PF types have a very low success rate in the NBA. He reminds me of Brandan Wright with much better shotblocking. He needs bulk and offensive polish badly and I think he'd struggle a ton on this raptor team which needs offense so badly.

The prospect scouting process is so funny sometimes. As a HS prospect, Barnes is the best of the bunch (in terms of how good he was supposed to be before he'd ever played an NCAA game). But because he played a full season and started slow, people are poking at perceived flaws. And someone like drummond is playing badly and getting a free pass because his upside is supposed to be so good - because people will give bigs so much more leeway than they will to wing guys for not producing early in their careers.

Jazzfan12 · Post #370 » by **Jazzfan12** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:33 am

DarkKnight wrote:
JamesNaismith wrote:
Mr.Raptorsingh wrote:And with respect to JamesNaismith's comment, I feel like my expectations are in check with what he's capable of - you know he's going to defend and shoot it at a respectable level right off the bat. And with Andrea drawing attention, he's going to get clean looks at the basket. Just tailor-made for our current personnel.

I wouldn't say tailormade because I don't think our roster is good enough to start "fitting" pieces but I get what you mean. If DeMar could get to the rim like say Tyreke Evans (and no I don't want Reke here not a fan of his personality) then yes he would be perfect. Problem is almost no one has the ability to create their own shot.....now if we were THE luckiest team next year and drafted Shabazz then 100% Barnes would be a perfect fit.....for now he's a good one.

My biggest problem has always been that our team is not good enough to be swayed by "fit". The thread is vague on if we're stating who's the best, who's the most potential or just who we think realistically we get. But if it's on BPA then the AD's are just above everyone else imo, I have Lamb/Barnes/PJ3 a notch under and then MKG/Miller below them (but I just need to see Miller be what he was in highschool in the next couple months cuz then he's just under ADs and above Barnes n co. for me OR unfortunately he'll remain a 3rd tier prospect).

I think the hype on the ADs has gotten a bit out of hand next to their actual games/production. Drummond especially has been mediocre this season and is living off his HS hype as a prospect. His FT shooting is abysmal and he hasn't shown he's more than an upside/project big. Davis, on the other hand, produces at a very high level and should be a plus defender from day 1 but super-thin PF types have a very low success rate in the NBA. He reminds me of Brandan Wright with much better shotblocking. He needs bulk and offensive polish badly and I think he'd struggle a ton on this raptor team which needs offense so badly.

The prospect scouting process is so funny sometimes. As a HS prospect, Barnes is the best of the bunch (in terms of how good he was supposed to be before he'd ever played an NCAA game). But because he played a full season and started slow, people are poking at perceived flaws. And someone like drummond is playing badly and getting a free pass because his upside is supposed to be so good - because people will give bigs so much more leeway than they will to wing guys for not producing early in their careers.

Anthony Davis has been the best player in college basketball, his production is far from overhyped.

fredericklove · Post #371 » by **fredericklove** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:38 am

DarkKnight wrote:Barnes is still the best fit for the raps in this draft and there's a good chance he'll be the best player from it as well. Pierce (who others have mentioned in various capacities) is actually a very good comp. Prototype SF size, more shooter than slasher but more than enough dribble-drive game to keep teams honest. Terrific defender and solid rebounder. He's also a Kobe-level worker off the court and has a great demeanor and personality.

He may be more Pierce or Harden than Vince or Lebron, but not all top players have to be dunk-contest competitors. He's a level or 2 better right now than Demar is and some still think he can be a star just because he can dunk it big.

I guess Pierce has a better handle and quicker on his feet but he always starts off from triple-threat to keep his defender off-balance, or utilizes p&r to get his space to either go for pull-up jumper or drive str8 to the bucket. Barnes has a similar game too. Tho he's less quicker than Pierce but he's at his best when he starts the triple-threat stance. When you look at his triple-threat stance, you see shotfake, jabstep, or pivots, he utilizes these fakes to shake off his defenders.

I agree with the UNC system, and also at the college level, the lanes are more tightly defended, there's just no room to drive. So in high school where Barnes can just freely go up strong everytime but in college he struggled big time cos of the traffic in the lane. But now he's learned and became cautious about the driving lanes. I see NBA having a much better open space and he's going to have more shot-creating opportunities in the nba for sure.

And I'm actually glad Barnes stays for another year. He's really learning how to protect the ball at a better rate, some of his other stats have gone down but I see a substantial improvement in his offensive repertoire. This season I see his game being more and more like a poor man's Paul Pierce.

dTox · Post #372 » by **dTox** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:39 am

Jazzfan12 wrote:Anthony Davis has been the best player in college basketball, his production is far from overhyped.

agreed

fredericklove · Post #373 » by **fredericklove** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:50 am

Crazy-Canuck wrote:if DD is in our future plans, then Barnes or Miller make more sense and fills a need.

But i still believe that MKG is the best swing in the draft and would be my guy IF there is any doubt about DD's future with the team.

It all comes down to the pick. Top 2 picks, there's no doubt you take the ADs. Barnes and Lamb will battle the 3rd spot while beginning at the 5th spot, this is where you look at MKG.

I wouldn't say he will be a best swing/best wing but he's definitely one who can impact the game in so many ways. Defense, rebounding, getting teammates involved and leadership. MKG to the raptors means there will be a defensive stopper that we can count on every night, guarding the best player on the other team. His offense will still be a question mark, I see him excel on the fast breaks or free-flowing offense. In half court, he'll struggle but he has a high bbiq, he'll learn to improve how to score in different ways. I see him attacking the lane, getting to the foul line more often.

Barnes to the raptors means there will be a legit 2nd offensive option. Someone we can absolutely give the ball to during crutch time. And if he pans out, he'll be hard to stop offensively, he'll have games where he'll take over offensively.

fredericklove · Post #374 » by **fredericklove** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:53 am

dTox wrote:
Jazzfan12 wrote:Anthony Davis has been the best player in college basketball, his production is far from overhyped.

agreed

Agree, D23 has his flaws but his skillset outweighs his flaws.

Post #375 » by **Undefeated** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:20 am

fredericklove wrote:I guess Pierce has a better handle and quicker on his feet but he always starts off from triple-threat to keep his defender off-balance, or utilizes p&r to get his space to either go for pull-up jumper or drive str8 to the bucket. Barnes has a similar game too. Tho he's less quicker than Pierce but he's at his best when he starts the triple-threat stance. When you look at his triple-threat stance, you see shotfake, jabstep, or pivots, he utilizes these fakes to shake off his defenders.

Yeah. I'm not too worried about Barnes trying to shake off his defender through ball handling. Beating your defender requires body fakes/jolts and footwork misleading the defender into a certain angle/direction along with handles which the former Barnes already does well. I mean, Barnes does a really great job of quickly stepping into a crossover or inside-out dribble when he takes a wide step into one direction to another. Barnes doesn't have the shiftiness like Kevin Durant, but the game winner Barnes had last year against FSU really reminds me of that move.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYPhiiliszA&feature=relmfu[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9QD-18ad9s[/youtube]

DarkKnight · Post #376 » by **DarkKnight** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:22 am

dTox wrote:
Jazzfan12 wrote:Anthony Davis has been the best player in college basketball, his production is far from overhyped.

agreed

He's been terrific but Thomas Robinson has been the best player in the league so far. Not to knock what Davis has done so far but he's still a 4th/5th option on his team and his offense is primarily dunks/putbacks at this point. His defense is amazing but his length will be somewhat neutralized in the pros due to his lack of strength, and a team taking him top 1/2 has to be prepared to get little/no offense out of him for the first few years.

Honestly, who was the last rail-thin PF drafted that turned out to be really good/great int he NBA? Bosh? I have the same concerns about John Henson, but at least he's shown that he's developed both a left and a right hand hook shot and a turnaround jumper - and I still think he'll struggle a ton in the pros without more strength.

Davis has all the potential and such you could want but his body is a long way from NBA ready. Drummond is the opposite - NBA body all the way but his skillset/production isn't there yet. That's the allure of guys like Lamb or Barnes or MKG. NBA bodies and production and skills that are already NBA level.

As a comparison, look at the 03 draft with Darko, Bosh, and Wade. Wade had the NBa body and the NCAA production but Bosh and Darko were the upside bigs, and upside bigs go early even though they rarely pan out the way teams hope. Teams go with a project big ahead of an almost-sure-thing wing or point and they usually regret it. Thabeet over Harden, Oden over Durant, etc. The league is becoming more and more wing/guard dominated, and you cant afford to whiff on a pick searching for bigs.

I think Davis will be a very good NBA player but the team that gets him better have 3-5 years to develop him

JamesNaismith · Post #377 » by **JamesNaismith** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:59 am

Not really fair comparing picking Oden over Durant to Thabeet over Harden.....Greg's potential was flat-lined from injuries not lack of brain (he was also WIDELY regarded the next great big man and #1 pick by most GMs at the time) and I'm not saying it to flame but I have a hard time reading your take on Davis when just a few months ago you were making as if Biyombo was the next Dwight Howard.

Laowai · Post #378 » by **Laowai** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:14 am

Would love Davis and agree that his body isn't big enough to be a PF!
But again start him at SF he is athletic enough to guard any SF even if its put backs and drives so what.
Bargs could be a point forward with Davis 6ft10, Val 7ft and Bargs7 ft all mobile for there position.
Open up opportunities for DeMar to score.

If E. Davis not traded then a second front court of JJ, Amir and E Davis would be strong.

JamesNaismith · Post #379 » by **JamesNaismith** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:21 am

So Davis is not big enough to play PF but that the "massive" PF he's been likened to was???

fredericklove · Post #380 » by **fredericklove** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:33 am

JamesNaismith wrote:Not really fair comparing picking Oden over Durant to Thabeet over Harden.....Greg's potential was flat-lined from injuries not lack of brain (he was also WIDELY regarded the next great big man and #1 pick by most GMs at the time) and I'm not saying it to flame but I have a hard time reading your take on Davis when just a few months ago you were making as if Biyombo was the next Dwight Howard.

I agree. If Oden wasn't cursed by injuries, I would still draft him over Durant today again and again. He's a game-changer on defense with insane athleticism that also goes along with an improving offense. I'm not knocking on Durant he's an elite player but I'd prefer rebuilding a team around an elite big.

Although Davis' size is an issue, he is being recognized for his game-changing defense with amazing athleticism, and of cos with an improving offense too. He has shown a glimpse of his post offense in the last few kentucky games so its not a lost hope to think that he's just limited to putback and alleyloop. Also, he's a 5th option on a team with 4 other starters with NBA-level offensive skillset, so for him to maintain his avg of 13 pts is pretty incredible. For Thabeet over Harden, Thabeet doesn't have the athleticism on Davis or Oden's level. He's also has a super raw offensive game so he's only been advertised as a big with so called elite defensive potential. So about Davis, he's offensively raw yet he has insane motor, offensive awareness, and the athleticism as basic foundations that can help him improve his offensive game.

Who do you want the Raptors to draft in the 2012 NBA Draft?