Atlanta Hawks (12-5) vs Milwaukee Bucks (6-9) game thread

[Ruhiel]

What the heck are we talking about FIBA for?

And the fact is he's rebounding at 12%. The exact # I said he would.

Leuer hasn't played outside much because he plays with the Milwaukee Bucks. They don't have the same shooting "problems" that Josh Smith presents and want Leuer inside the arc.

Which is not his forte. Ilyasova played the center yesterday and in a tight game did not attempt a 3.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... elog/2012/

Its easy to take shots when someones struggling but Marvin Williams was garbage yesterday and is only still playing here because his contract's so bad its virtually untradeable.

[goodbusiness]

Spammer

[MaceCase]

FIBA matters because it's the closest approximation to the NBA line and he was piss poor at hitting them. You are claiming him to be a good 3point shooter based on a shorter line at the amateur level but his touch hasn't translated out to the further distance of the pros. This is a rather elementary deduction in reasoning and scouting for anyone who isn't desperately trying to save face.

[Ruhiel]

FIBA matters because it's the closest approximation to the NBA line and he was piss poor at hitting them. You are claiming him to be a good 3point shooter based on a shorter line at the amateur level but his touch hasn't translated out to the further distance of the pros. This is a rather elementary deduction in reasoning and scouting for anyone who isn't desperately trying to save face.

Show me where I based him being a "great shooter based on a shorter line". If I recall correctly it was he'd be a great shooter next to Josh Teague and Johnson creating for him and based it off of successful players draftexpress' measurements.
Chris Kaman
Kevin Love
David Lee
Jon Leuer

He'd replace Marvin who is terrible in loading up and shooting over people.

And despite your technicality talk about his shooting not having translated it has.
In ATL's offense he'd take Marvin's spot. Outside the arc. Catch the swing pass and shoot. Others crash.
In MIL's offense he's playing Josh Smith's role. Inside the arc. Rebound and score.

MIL's roster is not the same as ours. If Mbah a Moute and S-Jax ever turn into Josh Smith and Joe Johnson like a certain poster expected then that might be a valid point.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_xN1y1NOHw[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW7r0f2mCJU[/youtube]

[MaceCase]

*ahem* You've expressed your desire for him to be a stretch 4, no? What evidence led you to believe that he could be a stretch 4? Was it the fact that he shot a good 3point% from the college line? So using rudimentary logic it is your belief that he would be a good 3point shooter in the Pros based on what he did at the college level, correct?

Despite the Pro lines being different than the Amateur line?



You are dismissed.

[Ruhiel]

*ahem* You've expressed your desire for him to be a stretch 4, no?

What evidence led you to believe that he could be a stretch 4? Was it the fact that he shot a good 3point% from the college line?
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Marvin Williams is a clumsy uncoordinated player. He moves like he cant walk and shoe gum at the same time. He doesnt box out. Worst of all he has an inconsistent shooting form and long loadup time to form a shooting pocket. He is easily chased off the line where he struggles shooting and finishing off the dribble.

True? Okay. Now how much of that stands for Leuer? Okay.

"It'll be tested again tonight. Guys like Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, they're in the league with the Carmelos and LeBrons -- great 1-on-1 players." - Luc Richard Mbah a moute

Using rudimentary logic it is my belief that if guys like Joe Johnson and Josh Smith drew the defense then I'd want Jon Leuer outside as opposed to Marvin Williams.

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So You're moving the goal posts. No one ever mentioned college lines or 3P%. It was always the highlights where you can see which his fundamentals shooting off the dribble and 3s and his range juxtaposed against Marvin.

There's no question he can stand in a corner and make plays (Marvin's role) off our stars.
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Not that they were hard to find but Here's the old quotes I actually did say:

Leuer has average arms to height proportions. Good height and such proportions (that wingspan at his height) have precedence in being very fluid shooters and playmakers. Leads to good balance on basic hook shots pull up shots, pump fakes. Leuer is built to have fluid basic fundamentals unlike Marvin Williams.

Leuer, Odom, Villanueva, David Lee. Beasley, Kaman, Josh Smith, Lebron Pierce Carmelo all have 7'0 wingspans.

He can make fluid perimeter plays and knock down shots (off of JJ and Teague). Whereas Jon Leuer was proven in college and has the potential to be at the very least a 4th option inside outside player with good size. Marvin Williams has proven he is a volume shooter who cannot handle being the 4th option and despite his good length he is too short and not skilled enough to overcome the size difference.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_xN1y1NOHw&feature=channel_video_title[/youtube]

[MaceCase]

Bogut would also be able to play pick and ROLL.

and again I'll reiterate. the biggest problem has been having a perimeter player who can shoot the trail shot, the corner 3, defend the 4position and rebound.

LEUER!

What happened?

Ran out of ghost edits?

Which one of those things has Leuer demonstrated the ability to do at the pro level? Oh, but it's WITHOUT QUESTION HE CAN DO THIS.......except in the reality that exists outside of your head.

Dismissed.

[Wooderson]

^^^ If that was his logic on the decision to bench Leuer then I think he made a big mistake. Josh has trouble with stretch 4s because he wants to help on D and strays leaving the player to get hot. In theory Ilyasova could stretch the floor, but he didn't do it tonight.

Leuer, despite all of one poster's designating him as such, has not proven himself to be a capable "stretch" 4 in a professional league. At least not to the point where he "stretches" the floor more than saaaaaaaay,
Al Horford.
He shot the 3 well in college but struggled with the longer 3point line in FIBA play to the tune of 25%(correction, he shot 25% in Eurocup but 28.6% in Bundesliga...a very low ranked Euroleague) and has attempted all of four 3pointers this season. That's not very typical for a "stretch 4" now is it?

Throw in that he's a typically dreadful defender as most rookies are, the fact he rebounds at the rate of a good SF and not a 7footer, and then sprinkle in that even before last night Ersan and Gooden were the teams leading rebounders (oh, and Irsan doesn't stretch the floor in theory, he actually attempts and has made plenty of NBA 3s) and you can see why Skiles actually made the superior choice.

There is no way in hell Gooden is a better offensive player than Leuer right now. Gooden has been a below average efficiency player his entire career, throw in the facts that he's a terrible passer, disrupts ball movement, and has a tendency to chuck ill-advised 20 footers and you have yourself a negative asset.

In the time Leuer's played in the NBA he's looked extremely comfortable. He's shown the ability to hit jumpers, either from the spot up or off the dribble. He's the most efficient player by on the Bucks this year.

His defense has not been bad this year, certainly not worse than Goodens - so that should not be taken into account.

Now Ersan probably is a better option most nights, because of his D. However his offense has been extremely poor this year - to the tune of .479 TS%.

He deserves at least 15 minutes a night regardless of the matchup. He has the best jumper out of any of the Bucks players by far. If there were other players that had the same skillset as Leuer and the Bucks didn't need him that's one thing - but that's not the case.

The same can be said for Tobias Harris at SF. He's been excellent and deserves some court time. Yet instead Skiles runs a cold shooting, recently back from injury Mike Dunleavy for 31 minutes (including the last 15 minutes of the game).

Skiles is a bum, plain and simple.

[ATL Boy]

Bogut would also be able to play pick and ROLL.

and again I'll reiterate. the biggest problem has been having a perimeter player who can shoot the trail shot, the corner 3, defend the 4position and rebound.

LEUER!

What happened?

Ran out of ghost edits?

Which one of those things has Leuer demonstrated the ability to do at the pro level? Oh, but it's WITHOUT QUESTION HE CAN DO THIS.......except in the reality that exists outside of your head.

Dismissed.

I agree with MaceCase on this one, this isn't college ball. And man I have never seen someone this in love with a player, especially a second round draft pick.

[Wooderson]

Bogut would also be able to play pick and ROLL.

and again I'll reiterate. the biggest problem has been having a perimeter player who can shoot the trail shot, the corner 3, defend the 4position and rebound.

LEUER!

What happened?

Ran out of ghost edits?

Which one of those things has Leuer demonstrated the ability to do at the pro level? Oh, but it's WITHOUT QUESTION HE CAN DO THIS.......except in the reality that exists outside of your head.

Dismissed.

I agree with MaceCase on this one, this isn't college ball. And man I have never seen someone this in love with a player, especially a second round draft pick.

Nah wasn't going to respond until Gooden was brought into the discuss. Gooden is just that bad.

Even more so the Bucks are an infuriating team to follow, and playing the likes of Jackson, Dunleavy, and Gooden heavy minutes instead of young players with upside like Leuer and Harris is exactly the kind of short-sighted thinking that has had the Bucks stuck in sand for the last 10 years.

When you're a fan of the Bucks all you have to get excited about are 2nd round picks with no expectations. It's a sad state.

[MaceCase]

Wooderson, I'll give you Gooden but given that Bogut was benched and he is for some reason your backup C it made sense him being out there if the other was not but that's not my debate here. What someone here is failing to understand is Ilyasova over Leuer. Now it was already stated that Josh Smith struggles with perimeter forwards because he has a penchant to want to sag on helpside D so which choice makes more sense against him? The tweener forward that attempts and hits actual 3s and is also a leading rebounder on your team or the rookie who has attempted all of 4 threes and is hitting 35% from 16-23feet on minimal attempts while being a much weaker rebounder?

You aren't around here often so you haven't seen the yearlong trollfest that is Ruhiel. He's unabashedly been trying to knock everyone over the head with the idea that Josh Smith should be a SF and that Al Horford is useless so he should be traded for a real center and a stretch forward to space the floor for Smith because Al Horford hitting 20 footers better than Dirk last season wasn't doing anything. Leuer has been his target because of that and only that. Leuer, unfortunately for Ruhiel, has only shown the ability and propensity to hit from 15 feet (that would be 5 feet less than 20) and in on the NBA level and his much ballyhooed deep shooting prowess has yet to be proven at this level or any pro level for that matter.

Now he may turn out to be a great player for you guys but the manner in which he's doing it is flying in the face of every last prognostication that this person has made about how he will fit on THIS roster and push it to a championship. All he has is his hypotheticals but unfortunately no real proof to substantiate it outside of "Bucks are garbage, Marvin too!"

[Ruhiel]

1st, Ilyasova shooting .480 TS%. Marvin .501 TS%

2nd,

Thanks to his strong and consistent play, Jon Leuer, the 40th pick in last year's NBA draft, has been the fifth-best rookie this season. Leuer's success is largely a result of his spot-up shooting, something that Leuer does on a quarter of his offensive possessions. As of Sunday, Leuer's 1.286 PPP in spot-up situations placed him in the top 10 percent of all NBA players. Leuer has been feasting on opportunities as the third player in pick-and-roll situations. Leuer isn't the big man setting screens; he's the forward spotting up outside of the pick-and-roll, ready to catch and shoot when his man shades over to help. In these situations, Leuer is shooting 71.4 percent, and he's really making the defense pay for leaving him.

Macecase. This Horford is the same Horford who's been replaced by Zaza Pachulia and Ivan Johnson.
The guy who was averaging 12 & 7?

Marvin Williams was amongst the best long 2point shooters in the league hitting at a 45% clip from that distance before Woody asked him to take a step back and shoot the three. He came back and was able to hit it at a 35% clip.

Al Horford is amongst the best long 2point shooters in the league hitting it at a 50% clip. He's talked about taking a step back. TBD

Donatas Motiejunas has not attempted a single shot in the NBA.

By all means, let's trade our all purpose, rebounding, passing, defending and shooting player for what is being projected to be a 7 foot Kyle Korver in your lineup.

The same Macecase who raves for Horford for doing simple role player things and thought Horford could shoot 3s.

Now its not Motiejunas (yet to appear in the NBA) who cant shoot but its Leuer who cant shoot.
Yet Horford can take a step back and shoot 3s but not Leuer.

I fail to see how Jon Leuer with better shot form, cant shoot 3s (or as you put it in September "take a step back"), yet Al Horford can.

http://bkref.com/tiny/aHlX3
http://bkref.com/tiny/2w6HX

Are we really citing 3 Point college lines? 3 Point %? Whatever, fine.
Please explain how Leuer's shooting (15 games, 1-4 3PA) is inferior to Horford (11 games, 0-1 3PA) or how this isn't another instance of YOU trolling ME.

I thought Horford could just take a step back? He shoots near the same %'s and although Leuer turns it over less, they are on a near similar usage% to Leuer on the same So, Why cant Leuer?

[Wooderson]

Leuer 9-11 for 19 points and 5 rebounds in 20 minutes.

Leuer gonna Leuer