Peak Chris Paul vs Peak Steve Nash

[Rapcity_11]

Rap, don't play yourself. Give CP3 New Orleans career some credit. Nothing Nash did before Amare compared to CP3 before Blake, injury or not.

I said his 08 and 09 years were GOAT level. That's not credit?

[Brenice]

Rap, don't play yourself. Give CP3 New Orleans career some credit. Nothing Nash did before Amare compared to CP3 before Blake, injury or not.

I said his 08 and 09 years were GOAT level. That's not credit?

When gaging Nash, people want to isolate on his peak, second Phoenix career, not his whole career. Then when looking at CP3, you made a point of including the injury years to discredit CP3, not just 08 and 09.

Does Nash get all benefit of the doubt and everybody else, none?

[Rapcity_11]

Rap, don't play yourself. Give CP3 New Orleans career some credit. Nothing Nash did before Amare compared to CP3 before Blake, injury or not.

I said his 08 and 09 years were GOAT level. That's not credit?

When gaging Nash, people want to isolate on his peak, second Phoenix career, not his whole career. Then when looking at CP3, you made a point of including the injury years to discredit CP3, not just 08 and 09.

Does Nash get all benefit of the doubt and everybody else, none?

I have no idea how you got onto that tangent.

I said I think it's pretty clear that we've seen Paul at his peak and I doubt he ever has years better than 08/09 at this point.

[Brenice]

No, not really. Nash had a pattern of consistent all-star (ish) production in Dallas. Paul on the other hand had two GOAT level years followed by 2 down years riddled with injury. There's really no comparison between the two situations.

It was about this. What does all-star(ish) production in Dallas mean when compared to 2 GOAT level years followed with 2 down years riddled with injury?

Like I was saying, you are looking at the whole for CP3, but a snapshot for Nash. What about his pre-Dallas years? Nash had a what, 15 or so year career so far? Or is it a 6 year career?

In Nash, they only look at what is convenient for Nash. Nevermind that CP3's 2 GOAT level years were played without a player on the level of Amare.

[slinslin]

In Nash, they only look at what is convenient for Nash. Nevermind that CP3's 2 GOAT level years were played without a player on the level of Amare.

If you can look past media hype there is not much of a difference between David West and Amare Stoudemire overall contribution.

[Rapcity_11]

No, not really. Nash had a pattern of consistent all-star (ish) production in Dallas. Paul on the other hand had two GOAT level years followed by 2 down years riddled with injury. There's really no comparison between the two situations.

It was about this. What does all-star(ish) production in Dallas mean when compared to 2 GOAT level years followed with 2 down years riddled with injury?

Like I was saying, you are looking at the whole for CP3, but a snapshot for Nash. What about his pre-Dallas years? Nash had a what, 15 or so year career so far? Or is it a 6 year career?

In Nash, they only look at what is convenient for Nash. Nevermind that CP3's 2 GOAT level years were played without a player on the level of Amare.

How has me saying that I doubt CP3 surpasses his form from 08/09 become a controversial statement?

[bastillon]

right, Paul posted GOAT level years but led his team to 50 wins ? Nash did the same in 2006 on a talent-deficient roster.

[Bobbcats]

Paul's 08-09 supporting cast was as talent-deficient as a 49 win team can possibly get. West was good and that's about it. Peja and Chandler were on the team in name only when they played. They took a couple years to get back from their injuries that year.

Rasual Butler was the only other player from that team who was in a regular rotation the next season. He was also their third best player. None of the rest of the team was good enough to play anywhere when they blew it up the next season. Even the young guys.

In fact 07-08 was similar except everyone was healthy. It was still a very shallow team, mainly the 4 in the first paragraph and Pargo.

[G35]

[No, not really. Nash had a pattern of consistent all-star (ish) production in Dallas. Paul on the other hand had two GOAT level years followed by 2 down years riddled with injury. There's really no comparison between the two situations.

All-star(ish) production....which means absolutely nothing. Lamar Odom has had a pattern of consistent all-starish production. Nash was in Dallas for 5 years. He made the All Star team twice. With his competition being Gary Payton, Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury, Sam Cassell.

But you are right with there being no comparison since Nash played with:

Amare
Marion
Barbosa
Bell
Diaw
Joe Johnson

CP3 played with:

Tyson Chandler
David West
Julian Wright
Jannero Pargo
Peja Stojakcvich
Rasual Butler
Morris Peterson

[JordansBulls]

Nash for me. I've never seen Paul have a playoff series as good as Nash's against the Mavericks in '05.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ml#PHO-DAL

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ml#NOH-DAL

[Bobbcats]

Nash for me. I've never seen Paul have a playoff series as good as Nash's against the Mavericks in '05.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ml#PHO-DAL

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ml#NOH-DAL

To sum up, in a much higher paced series (Mavs were still in Nelly-ball mode), Nash was giving you 6 more ppg and 4 more turnovers per game. Nash was impressive but CP ripped them apart it never felt like a series.

[Hemskyfanboy83]

Nash for me. I've never seen Paul have a playoff series as good as Nash's against the Mavericks in '05.

This.

No way to argue against it. Off the top of my head I'd say Nash had arguably a top 5 GOAT playoff series against the Mavs that year.

He was punishing Cuban, which made it all the cooler.

Lol the Mavericks "punished" Nash next year in 2006 when they went to the finals. Oh wait they didn't have Amare is the likely excuse.

Year 2: Amare misses the whole season, and Nash carries the Suns to Game 6 of the WCF against the Mavs with a supporting cast of Marion, Diaw, Bell, Barbosa, Tim Thomas
Year 3: After a huge comeback on the road in Game 4, Amare gets suspended for game 5. Suns lose at home and lose the series in 6 to the Spurs.

The Suns suffered some terrible luck those first 3 years. I am willing to bet if healthy, they likely win at least 1 championship in this time frame given that the East was pretty bad.

You forgot to mention game 3 of the 2007 Spurs series where Tim Donaghy and crew lead one of the worst officiated games in pro sports history.
And 2010 when Amare was soft tissue pussy **** and Nash had to carry the team. If Amare could play D or rebound, Suns would be 2010 champs

Amare sure is a lot of the reasons for why the Suns didn't win. Nash was doing all the carrying until they lose then it's someone else's fault. Makes me wonder who needed who.....

Do you not understand the point? No superstar is going to win championships when they are missing their #2. Duncan would never win without Parker/Ginobili. Kobe would never if Shaq/Gasol were hurt etc.

Also if you think Amare was more important to the Suns, I suggest you look at the 05/06 season where the Suns went 54-28 without Amare and compare that to 03/04 season where the Suns went 29-53 without Nash.

[Rapcity_11]

[No, not really. Nash had a pattern of consistent all-star (ish) production in Dallas. Paul on the other hand had two GOAT level years followed by 2 down years riddled with injury. There's really no comparison between the two situations.

All-star(ish) production....which means absolutely nothing. Lamar Odom has had a pattern of consistent all-starish production. Nash was in Dallas for 5 years. He made the All Star team twice. With his competition being Gary Payton, Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury, Sam Cassell.

But you are right with there being no comparison since Nash played with:

Amare
Marion
Barbosa
Bell
Diaw
Joe Johnson

CP3 played with:

Tyson Chandler
David West
Julian Wright
Jannero Pargo
Peja Stojakcvich
Rasual Butler
Morris Peterson

Oh look another tangent used to rip Nash.

Just to remind you all I said was I'm almost positive we've seen Paul at his peak.

[Rapcity_11]

Nash for me. I've never seen Paul have a playoff series as good as Nash's against the Mavericks in '05.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ml#PHO-DAL

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ml#NOH-DAL

To sum up, in a much higher paced series (Mavs were still in Nelly-ball mode), Nash was giving you 6 more ppg and 4 more turnovers per game. Nash was impressive but CP ripped them apart it never felt like a series.

The higher pace doesn't mean much. Sure Nash had more possessions total, but it's a guarantee that a higher % of Hornets possessions ran entirely through Paul, due to the slower, half-court set-up.

Dallas was 9th in Drtg both seasons.

Nash was also scoring the ball more efficiently to go along with the higher volume. It really was a ton more turnovers though.

[G35]

Do you not understand the point? No superstar is going to win championships when they are missing their #2. Duncan would never win without Parker/Ginobili. Kobe would never if Shaq/Gasol were hurt etc.

Also if you think Amare was more important to the Suns, I suggest you look at the 05/06 season where the Suns went 54-28 without Amare and compare that to 03/04 season where the Suns went 29-53 without Nash.

Not the point. Amare and Marion are after thoughts when Nash is discussed. Nash made both players. In fact ask anybody and Nash has made every player that has ever played with Nash. When Amare is in the lineup the only thing you hear is he can't rebound or defend. But when Amare isn't there he's the first excuse offered. Hypocrisy. Every player has weakness. Look at Pau. He can be as soft as tissue and played like it in the playoff's. But the majority of the blame for the Lakers losing is never placed on Pau, Bynum, coaching or officials. It's always placed on Kobe and that's just part of being the best player on the team.

With Nash it's never his fault......

[G35]

Nash for me. I've never seen Paul have a playoff series as good as Nash's against the Mavericks in '05.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ml#PHO-DAL

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ml#NOH-DAL

I have never seen where you can bring up the whole totals for a playoff series. Very convenient.

60 assist to 6 TO's. Impressive by CP3, I have never seen a PG that can be that elite a playmaker and not turn the ball over at a high rate.....

[Hemskyfanboy83]

Not the point. Amare and Marion are after thoughts when Nash is discussed. Nash made both players. In fact ask anybody and Nash has made every player that has ever played with Nash. When Amare is in the lineup the only thing you hear is he can't rebound or defend. But when Amare isn't there he's the first excuse offered. Hypocrisy. Every player has weakness. Look at Pau. He can be as soft as tissue and played like it in the playoff's. But the majority of the blame for the Lakers losing is never placed on Pau, Bynum, coaching or officials. It's always placed on Kobe and that's just part of being the best player on the team.

With Nash it's never his fault......

Amare has his flaws, but I think most people would agree he is a very good player. Much like Pau. I never brought up 2010. To me, the Lakers were clearly the better team than the Suns that year.

I am talking about the 1st 3 years where Nash joined the Suns. I think the Suns were good enough to win titles those 3 years but they suffered some bad luck.

I also don't think people should say Nash made Amare and Marion. Those are 2 very good players in their own right. Nash did however make them both a lot more efficient. Both their #'s took a big dip immediately leaving PHX.

[G35]

Not the point. Amare and Marion are after thoughts when Nash is discussed. Nash made both players. In fact ask anybody and Nash has made every player that has ever played with Nash. When Amare is in the lineup the only thing you hear is he can't rebound or defend. But when Amare isn't there he's the first excuse offered. Hypocrisy. Every player has weakness. Look at Pau. He can be as soft as tissue and played like it in the playoff's. But the majority of the blame for the Lakers losing is never placed on Pau, Bynum, coaching or officials. It's always placed on Kobe and that's just part of being the best player on the team.

With Nash it's never his fault......

Amare has his flaws, but I think most people would agree he is a very good player. Much like Pau. I never brought up 2010. To me, the Lakers were clearly the better team than the Suns that year.

I am talking about the 1st 3 years where Nash joined the Suns. I think the Suns were good enough to win titles those 3 years but they suffered some bad luck.

I also don't think people should say Nash made Amare and Marion. Those are 2 very good players in their own right. Nash did however make them both a lot more efficient. Both their #'s took a big dip immediately leaving PHX.

I can agree with all that.....

[JordansBulls]

Nash for me. I've never seen Paul have a playoff series as good as Nash's against the Mavericks in '05.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ml#PHO-DAL

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ml#NOH-DAL

I have never seen where you can bring up the whole totals for a playoff series. Very convenient.

60 assist to 6 TO's. Impressive by CP3, I have never seen a PG that can be that elite a playmaker and not turn the ball over at a high rate.....

Pretty new, came out just last week.

[Worm 6]

Nash much higher peak. Paul has random "god" mode. Ala the game against Miami, Playoffs against Lakers.

Overall though, other PG are just simply better constantly. Drose of last year/this year. Deron SEVERAL years.

"both" of these godly PG hasn't done anything though to see the finals.

This made me lol hard. And it's true.