Nash vs Rose: Worst MVP in NBA history?

[grimballer]

whether they are comparable on d is irrelevant.

whats relevant for the mvp discussion is

malone was all nba 1st team, just like duncan

malone was all nba d 1st team just like duncan.

the difference between the 2 was malones better stat production.

No, what matters is how good they actually were.

Whether or not they were comparable on D is entirely relevant.

lets try to focus on the v of mvp

how you determine whos more valuable?

better yet how you gonna qualify d?

duncan did play on no.1 d in spurs, but he was team up with another elite defender in robinson (twin towers) together they were responsible for spurs d, not duncan by himself.

on the other hand malone was slightly better on offense/production wise, things you can qualify.

[thamadkant]

Nash in his MVP years was a walking 110 point for his team.

Without him the Suns struggled to score 90 points. And we're 0-12 or something like that when he didn't play.

He was also the leagues best passer, shooter, and leader those years....

[WhateverBro]

Well, between the two it's obvious Rose who is the pick. Nash was dominant and carried Phoenix whole offense and that's even more evident if you look at how the offense completely fell apart without Nash. Although I've always felt that Shaq deserved one of his MVPs but it's whatever, Nash was a good pick too.

Unseld is the worst of all-time though... Rose might come in second or third IMO.

[SSSFreak]

Just some thing people may have overlooked when questioning Rose's MVP.

He was the 5th player in NBA history to post 2,000 points, 600 assists and 300 rebounds in a single season (along with Oscar Robertson, John Havlicek, Michael Jordan and LeBron James) and he also became the 7th player in NBA history to average 25.0 ppg, 7.5 apg and 4.0 rpg in a single season (along with Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Dwyane Wade and LeBron James).

I think on those points alone you cant possible ever call Rose the worst MVP of all time.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

i like how you just throw that word around (reputation) as if you proved your point.

i could do the same thing n say duncans all nba 1st team n d team selection were "just based on hype".

but the reality is malone was selected by majority of coaches on nba 1st d team.

so rep or no rep

30 nba coaches opinion > your opinion

I thnk we have enough episodes that show how coaches can be very lazy when voting for the best defenders, and how they can rely on stats and reputation even when those players are no more the defefenders they once were.
Kobe or Payton are primarly examples, Hughes 1st team was a joke, etc.
In the case of Malone, he was a good post defender, but really too limited to be compared to Duncan. Could do nothing against quicker players and wasn't good at closing the lane (the Bulls exploited his inability to stop Kukoc in the finals, forcing the Jazz to bench their primary shotblocker Ostertag to protect him)

[Doctor MJ]

lets try to focus on the v of mvp

how you determine whos more valuable?

better yet how you gonna qualify d?

duncan did play on no.1 d in spurs, but he was team up with another elite defender in robinson (twin towers) together they were responsible for spurs d, not duncan by himself.

on the other hand malone was slightly better on offense/production wise, things you can qualify.

You seem to me like you're being really inconsistent with what you're including and what you're excluding. You're basically saying "it's too hard to tell who is actually better on defense so might as well just go by who the experts voted for All-Defense" but not acknowledging the validity of those same experts universally ranking Duncan higher in DPOY consideration from the moment he entered into the league and universally agreeing that Duncan went on to improve drastically from there.

Let's also note that the whole notion that you can make a good assessment of these players simply based on the offense (because defense is theoretically minor enough we can half-ass the analysis) isn't supported by what we see in the adjusted +/- data of the '00s. Interior players are typically more important on defense than offense, and Duncan's no exception to this.

Now, I would say that Malone IS an exception to this, and this is partly because of how good he was on offense. However it's also because as big men defenders go, Malone was incomplete. Duncan's classification as PF is due to circumstance, and the Spurs defense continued to dominate well after Robinson for as long as Duncan remained in his prime. Malone on the other hand needed to play with a true big man defender who could actually be the shot blocking threat for the team.

[Ice Man]

Well, between the two it's obvious Rose who is the pick. Nash was dominant and carried Phoenix whole offense.

Say what? Nash played next to two All Stars who scored a combined 45 ppg.

[rsavaj]

Well, between the two it's obvious Rose who is the pick. Nash was dominant and carried Phoenix whole offense.

Say what? Nash played next to two All Stars who scored a combined 45 ppg.

Look upthread. Phoenix's offense fell completely apart without Nash.

[rrravenred]

Be interesting if they could estimate what those two All-Stars scored and at what efficiency when Nash was on the bench (RAPM sort of does that, I know)...

[Rapcity_11]

Be interesting if they could estimate what those two All-Stars scored and at what efficiency when Nash was on the bench (RAPM sort of does that, I know)...

We can get a good sense of it from looking at their pre and post Nash careers. A common mistake is that some people say "Nash made Marion/Amare." In reality what Nash did was take their efficiency from ~average to very good/elite. That's where his impact lies. In efficiency, not volume.

I also laugh at people who quote Nash's teammates PPG as an indicator of how good his supporting cast was. Without even commenting on how good or bad it was, that's just a plain stupid way to judge the cast of an elite playmaker. Of course somebody is gonna put the ball in the basket.

[smytheman]

You must be kidding? Nash and Rose are jets.

I would say the two worst are Karl Malone and LeBron James because they are regular season superstars who don't have the heart and nerve to replicate that form in the finals.

[Rapcity_11]

You must be kidding? Nash and Rose are jets.

I would say the two worst are Karl Malone and LeBron James because they are regular season superstars who don't have the heart and nerve to replicate that form in the finals.

You know that it's a regular season award, right?

[smytheman]

Yeah I do know it is a reg season award but to completely ignore finals form is silly. The finals are where reputations are made or broken.

[SideshowBob]

You must be kidding? Nash and Rose are jets.

I would say the two worst are Karl Malone and LeBron James because they are regular season superstars who don't have the heart and nerve to replicate that form in the finals.

Yeah I do know it is a reg season award but to completely ignore finals form is silly. The finals are where reputations are made or broken.

Yup. Just ask Steve Nash and Derrick Rose

[smytheman]

You must be kidding? Nash and Rose are jets.

I would say the two worst are Karl Malone and LeBron James because they are regular season superstars who don't have the heart and nerve to replicate that form in the finals.

Yeah I do know it is a reg season award but to completely ignore finals form is silly. The finals are where reputations are made or broken.

Yup. Just ask Steve Nash and Derrick Rose

Yes Nash had his chances and didn't make it to the finals. When (ok if) Rose plays finals we will see what he is made of on that stage. But you can't call him the worst mvp ever because in his 3 year career he has not played in finals. What do you expect him to be? Magic Johnson and win in his first year?

Bottom line... Rose is yet to have the chance to prove himself, LeBron and Malone did have the chance and they didn't deliver. That is not that say that LeBron won't, but he hasn't yet.

[SideshowBob]

None of those four are the worst MVPs.

[Rapcity_11]

Bottom line... Rose is yet to have the chance to prove himself, LeBron and Malone did have the chance and they didn't deliver.

Malone in the 98 finals: 25/10.5/4 on 50.4% shooting.

He wasn't very good in 97 though.

Also he lost to a freakin dynasty.

[Doctor MJ]

Yes Nash had his chances and didn't make it to the finals. When (ok if) Rose plays finals we will see what he is made of on that stage. But you can't call him the worst mvp ever because in his 3 year career he has not played in finals. What do you expect him to be? Magic Johnson and win in his first year?

Bottom line... Rose is yet to have the chance to prove himself, LeBron and Malone did have the chance and they didn't deliver. That is not that say that LeBron won't, but he hasn't yet.

Okay, with that you've moved over into the irrational zone. When you previously said that essentially you consider the whole season when factoring in which player seasons which garnered MVP award were the weakest, I didn't object at all. Seems an understandable way to look at things.

What you're saying with Rose though is not logical. You shouldn't be giving Rose's MVP season the benefit of the doubt because of what he might do at some point in the future. Rose in the future, whatever great things he does, will be done in the future, obviously. He'll get credit for them then. As for right now, Rose's team got eliminated last year by the Heat, in a series where LeBron dramatically outplayed him - to the point where you'd have to imagine that if the two players switched teams, whichever team had LeBron would have won. This needs to be held against Rose just as surely as any screw up of LeBron's needs to be held against him.

Moreover, in '08-09, LeBron won the MVP, went just as far in the playoffs as '10-11 Rose did, and was DRASTICALLY more impressive in the playoff the whole way. Toss aside MVP for a minute: If the question is who has had the best playoff performance between LeBron and Rose, the answer is LeBron without ANY room for debate. That LeBron in his longer career also has some embarrassing moments doesn't change that fact, and it would be ridiculous to judge who the weakest MVP was based on who had the most embarrassing moment without talking about who has had the more awe inspiring playoff performances as well.

[Bank Shot]

Cousy. If you have absolutely zero case for being the MVP of your own team you are not the MVP.

I consider Rose weak and Nash decent. LeBron in 09' was a VERY strong MVP.

[grimballer]

i like how you just throw that word around (reputation) as if you proved your point.

i could do the same thing n say duncans all nba 1st team n d team selection were "just based on hype".

but the reality is malone was selected by majority of coaches on nba 1st d team.

so rep or no rep

30 nba coaches opinion > your opinion

I thnk we have enough episodes that show how coaches can be very lazy when voting for the best defenders, and how they can rely on stats and reputation even when those players are no more the defefenders they once were.
Kobe or Payton are primarly examples, Hughes 1st team was a joke, etc.
In the case of Malone, he was a good post defender, but really too limited to be compared to Duncan. Could do nothing against quicker players and wasn't good at closing the lane (the Bulls exploited his inability to stop Kukoc in the finals, forcing the Jazz to bench their primary shotblocker Ostertag to protect him)

its funny how malone only made all nba d team once before his 1st mvp season, but somehow had a "defensive reputation" among the coaches.

as bias as some coaches can be

still

their opinions > bias fans or bias journalists.