I know y'all hate this conversation, but...

[Wannabe MEP]

Grant Hill needs to retire/get traded/tear his ACL/die/rot on the bench. Nah, that's all too harsh. I'm cool with him playing 16 minutes off the bench.

I don't know how to convince y'all of this: Grant Hill is a terrible fit with Nash. Epically terrible. He's quite possibly the worst small forward getting playing time in the NBA in terms of fit with Nash. To play small forward alongside Nash, the most important offensive skills are: 1) off-ball slashing, and 2) off-ball 3-point shooting. Hill is below average at #1, and HISTORICALLY, EMBARRASSINGLY, MIND-NUMBINGLY HORRENDOUS at #2. Especially considering that he's gotten so many minutes for so long with Nash. You'd think he'd, ya know, get better at off-ball scoring after playing off-ball with the greatest passer of his generation. Nope. His TS% is 46.5, which puts him on pace to blow the record out of the water for worst TS% for a Steve Nash swingman.

Exhibit A

Last night, Hill sat with an injury. That forced these lineups:
1) Nash-Childress-Dudley-Frye-Gortat -- Off Rtg: 164.71 (freakishly good)
2) Nash-Price-Dudley-Frye-Gortat -- Off Rtg: 150.00 (spectacularly good)

Overall, we had by far our best Off Rtg of the season last night at 126.3. Two of our three best offensive games this year have come with Hill benched.

Exhibit B

Nash has at least 10 minutes with 12 different units so far this year, 7 with Hill and 5 without Hill.
Off Rtg with Hill: 100.56
Off Rtg without Hill: 112.33

The best offensive unit with Hill is at 111.84, while 4 of the 5 units sans Hill are at 120 or above, including 142.31 (absurdly good) for the best one.

Hill has badly hurt our spacing for a long time. It wasn't so obvious with Amare and JRich, because the Nash-Stat pick-and-roll could operate in less space, as could JRich's shooting and slashing. With the decrease in our offense pop, spacing becomes exponentially more critical. What's interesting is that Hill has often been fairly positive for the second unit. Why? He provides extra facilitating capabilities...totally unnecessary when Nash is on the court, but very helpful with other Suns point guards. So the solution is exceedingly obvious: BRING HILL OFF THE BENCH.

[bwgood77]

I definitely think he should come off the bench. Not only because of the things you mentioned, but because he can be a primary ballhandler with the second unit. I think Redd and Childress should get opportunities to start, if for no other reason just to see if they belong in the team's future and if playing with Nash can get them into their grooves.

[Calvin Klein]

His 3s are not falling. At all. His mid range game is not automatic like it was 2 years ago.

I'd play him more than 15 minutes off the bench, yeah.

[RunDogGun]

I suggested this for the past two-three years. He is a great leader, and we need that off the bench. Nash can run his offense just fine. I think that one of them should be on the floor at all times, never resting together. Oh well, our coach sucks, and doesn't know what he is doing.

[JohnVancouver]

Soles - who do you want at the 3?

I'm kind of thinking Chilly, just for hustle, rebounding and D. he hit a three yesterday ....

[Wannabe MEP]

I think we gotta give this a shot:
Nash/Price
Childress/Brown
Dudley/Hill
Markieff/Lou
Gortat/Frye

[JasonDaPsycho]

I want to see him play because we suck when he does. Tanking mode.

[Revived]

He's still BY FAR our best defender and I think he'll continue to start because of that.

I don't really care whether he starts or not though. This team has MUCH bigger issues than freakin Grant Hill.

[Wannabe MEP]

We're 11.57 points per 100 possession better when Nash is on the court. We're 1.13 points per 100 possession better when Hill is on the court. This despite the fact that Hill has gotten about 90% of his minutes with Nash.

Exact same story last year. Exact same story the year before. The statistical case is f***ing undeniable (and has been for years): Steve Nash is dragging a rhinoceros of dead weight when Grant Hill is on the court.

[Beetlejuice]

mhmh

1) Hill is on the court when the opposing teams best player/lineup is on the court so obviously our numbers become better when he is off.

2) Suggesting that Childress is an upgrade ... in what category?

[nevetsov]

Soles, you list Dudley at the SF to validate your point of a 3pt shooting SF, but then replace Hill with Childress in the starting lineup and then list Chilly at the SG. Fact is, Duds has been predominantly been our starting SG this season, and that wouldn't change by starting Childress. Childress would no doubt be the starting SF.

Now I completely agree about Chilly being the more active slasher, but without looking it up, isn't he a much worse 3pt shooter than Hill? I could be wrong but for watching games it seems as though Hill has been making 3s when needed.

[RunDogGun]

Chilldress is not far off from Grant's three point shooting 18% compared to 20% and Chilldress's free throw shooting is zero percent. But the dude's two point percentage is 72. So, he should not shoot any threes, go to the basket always, and hope to never get fouled, unless it goes against the other team's best player. That way it is at least worth the miss.

I am still wondering why Telfair gets more burn than Price? Price goes from the starting lineup, to four minutes tonight against the Cats. What a way to screw with a guy's head.

[RunDogGun]

I think we gotta give this a shot:
Nash/Price
Childress/Brown
Dudley/Hill
Markieff/Lou
Gortat/Frye

Cut it out, what are you trying to do, win games.

[nevetsov]

I am still wondering why Telfair gets more burn than Price? Price goes from the starting lineup, to four minutes tonight against the Cats. What a way to screw with a guy's head.

Yeah I think Gentry's rotations speak for themselves. On a normal night, he's playing 11 guys. Not going to work.

Telfair should be pracitising with the first unit (Nash's body double) and only playing when Nash takes a night off.

Price should be the backup every night and practice with a consistent second unit to build chemistry and maintain consistency.

I do think Price is better off as a non-ball dominant guard though, so playing alongside veteran offensive initiators like Redd and Hill would probably be optimal.

[RunDogGun]

Price plays very well with The Gortat. I see your point about two units and building chemistry, but if Nash sits, I would start Price for the reason I stated.

I didn't get Price starting as the two. He isn't a shoot first guy. If he was used as the ball handler and Nash was used as the shooter, then it makes some sense. But since Gentry didn't use them that way, I didn't get it. Just like the Suns getting Warrick to be an Amare-lite, yet rarely playing him with Nash.

Or my favorite of not playing KT because it slowed down our fast breaks, yet needing KT to secure the rebounds to actually have fast breaks. (not Gentry's fault though, but also not a lesson learned by Gentry who was an assistant at the time)

The Suns are good at not using guys correctly. And lately, trying to make guys play roles that they aren't equipt for.

[Wannabe MEP]

This is the lineup I've had in my mind since 2010, and nothing has changed since then:
Nash - __SG__ - Dudley - Lou/Amare hybrid - Frye

Since we don't have a Lou/Amare hybrid, it currently looks like this:
Nash - __SG__ - Dudley - Frye/Markieff - Gortat

Ideally the SG is quick; shoots a confident, quick-release 3 at ~40% when open; and attacks the rim aggressively. I don't think that's too much to ask of an average shooting guard in this league . I'm not asking for someone who can create his own shot or anything particularly expensive like that.

Now, I would say that Shannon Brown has the right profile to be that guy. I think the most important thing, however, is a mindset of scoring off the pass. Brown thinks he's supposed to score off the dribble, so he's been really inconsistent with Nash. Childress, however, has actually been pretty effective with Nash. He's not a better shooter than Hill, but he's a much better slasher, and he's not a ball-stopper like Hill. His mindset is to score off the pass, which Hill has never figured out. Our other options are Price and Redd. Redd's just so slow, and Gentry assumes that he has to play Telfair when Price plays the two, so...

Honestly, I think any of Brown, Childress, Price, and Redd are better options than Hill. If we're going to get anything out of Childress and his 6 million, I say we give him a chance with Nash and have him constantly working on his shot. Price comes off the bench for Chilly, and stays as the 1 when Nash sits.

[DRK]

I agree with your statement of Hill not working with Nash. It was covered up when we had Amare on the court, to take the defence's attention, but now its just a gaping black hole.

Firstly, I would like to say I am a big Phoenix Suns fan. I love my Suns, to death. But in all honestly, I've never really been a fan of Grant Hill as a Phoenix Sun. The guy is a great NBA player, still is, and I have huge respect for him, but he just doesnt fit into our system. We need a 3 who can shoot the 3. Mid range pull up jumpshots are not the "Phoenix Suns," which is what Hill brings.

I would love to see a starting Lineup of:

Gortat
Frye
Dudley
Redd
Nash

Four capable three point shooters who can spread the floor.

And if Gortat is resting...

Frye
Morris
Dudley
Redd
Nash

Imagine that... All 5 players can shoot the three, and we can still be a great defensive team with that lineup. The opposition would not know who to close out on! And mix it up with Morris in the low post.

But yet.... Gentry continues to play Hill in the starting lineup. And, yes, I do like Gentry, but it's obvious that its not Frye, it's not Dudley, but its Grant Hill that is murdering our offensive production

[mybloodisorange]

This is why you just cant look at numbers like +/- and not watch the games. Grant had a cold start this year (like half the league after the lockout) but the man is without a doubt our best defender. He doesnt stretch the floor too much I agree because he isnt a consistant threat from 3 but he hits 3s when needed and always fills the lanes on fast breaks and knows how to finish and draw the foul. Honestly I think Grant has been playing great the past couple of weeks really playing nice all around games - im not sure why you are hanging this on him.

If you dont watch the games and just look at points scored and plus minus then yes I agree he looks alot worse than he really is. But as any fan knows the stats only tell half the story.

[DRK]

This is why you just cant look at numbers like +/- and not watch the games. Grant had a cold start this year (like half the league after the lockout) but the man is without a doubt our best defender. He doesnt stretch the floor too much I agree because he isnt a consistant threat from 3 but he hits 3s when needed and always fills the lanes on fast breaks and knows how to finish and draw the foul. Honestly I think Grant has been playing great the past couple of weeks really playing nice all around games - im not sure why you are hanging this on him.

If you dont watch the games and just look at points scored and plus minus then yes I agree he looks alot worse than he really is. But as any fan knows the stats only tell half the story.

No. I love his defence, and I appreciate what he brings. But in all honesty, is he that much of a better defender than Dudley? Does Hills contribution on defence mean as much to us than messing up the offensive flow? Sure Dudley isn't as good a defender, but he is still great. Dudley with a bit less defence than Hill can make our offence come to life.

Play Hill with the second unit. That seems like a simple solution.

[wordsenuff]

Play Hill with the second unit. That seems like a simple solution.

this.
tho he did have a good game last night.