Official Raptors 2012 NBA Draft Thread, Part 5

[CunningLinguist]

You see, the fact 98.2% of you have Harrison Barnes higher on your board than MKG is nothing shocking to me. You were the same people claiming for months Drummond was a top pick and worthy of drafting and taking minutes from Valancuinas.

You were the same people who had Barnes as the #1 pick before the media told you to like Anthony Davis and Andre Drummond.

Look, the draft is always about having a defined scouting eye. Knowing what you're looking for and then contrasting that to the talent you already have on your team. During the summer the media told you to like Harrison Barnes, and you did. Two weeks into the season the media told you to like Anthony Davis, and you did. Same with Drummond. You're starting to do it with Thomas Robinson.

You all are parrots -- at least a vast majority of you are.

I know that sounds blunt but I'm not here to be anyone's friend. It's about wins. I may hurt feelings along the way but I'm damn good at this stuff. My draft board for you guys will hold up through the next five months. I don't need Chad Ford. I don't need DraftExpess.

But more importantly, I don't need your love.

You are really starting to get on my nerves. Calling other people "parrots" for disagreeing with you, and generally insulting anyone who disagrees with your opinions is a great way to get suspended or even banned from the Raptors board. If you don't wise up and start playing nice with the other posters in this thread, action will be taken.

Muchos gracias

[Marvin!]

I've seen the Kittles comparison around, and it depends on wherer you think Lamb is an on-ball player or off but there are definitely some similarities, particularly physical. I don't really like it, different approaches IMO, though I liked Kittles, who I remember as a smart player, a shooter and very good perimeter defender (how his knees went) but did not create much off the dribble though he could keep it alive. He was an excellent transition player on both sides, one of the best, and I'm not sure that's Lamb's mode.

Could you guys stop quoting that Steamy Rubbish guy?

Physically very similar - Kerry is listed as 6'5, 179 (i'm assuming that was from the combine, sure he bulked up a bit once he got to the nba) - Lamb is currently listed as 6'5, 185 on DE.

Kittles was a pesky defender (long arms) - Lamb has the potential to be similar, although I don't think you can really say he is good now

As a rook at Villanova,
Kittles averaged 10.9, 3.5 reb, 2.9 assists, 1.7 steals on 48% FG (43% from 3)
Lamb averaged 11pts, 4.5 reb, 1.6 ast, 0.9 stls on 48% FG (37% from 3)

As a soph,
Kittles averaged 19.7, 6.5 reb, 3.4 ast, 2.7 stls on 45% FG (35% from 3)
Lamb is averaging 17.6, 4.6 reb, 1.9 ast, 1.5 stls on 47% FG (37% from 3)

The raw numbers from college are very similar. You may be right about the shot creation stuff - I don't remember Kittles clearly from college to comment (getting old!)

Kittle went on to average 21, 6 and 3.5 and then 20, 7 and 3.5 in his jr and sr years at Villa

Kittles NBA career had PERs of 16, 17.5, 13, 16, 16, 18, 15, 10 in the nba - above average but not anything 'star' worthy really (the 18 came the year that the Nets lost 4-2 to the Spurs in the finals) and averaged 14 pts, 3.9 reb, 2.6 ast, 1.7 stl on 44% FG (38% from 3) over his 8 year career (7 really, only played 11 games for the Clips in his last season) - his best scoring season was 17.2 in his 2nd year.

A good player, but no star...

Not sure I agree about MKG being undersized - he's listed at 6'7, 228 - it will be interesting to see his combine results for sure.

[Dr Positivity]

Serious questions here, as I haven't been following college basketball that closely.

Does MKG have a better jumper than James Johnson? What are the differences between MKG and James Johnson?

dude your sig thread is a lol-fest, we need a bring back Mustard_Tiger petition.

I don't know if he's just banned from the NBA board or has just lost his heart for the Raptors, he's active as hell in the Blue Jays forum (as Randle McMurphy). I was always a fan

[Undefeated]

To me MGK looks like smaller, faster version of James Johnson. Offensive game? no. Guy has pretty ugly shooting form. He has been shooting .289% from downtown. Most of his points are garbage putbacks, layups, fastbreak dunks, little midrage game. Guy is also undersized to play SF on nba level and hasn't got the skills to play SG.

He definitely needs to iron out the wrinkles in his shooting mechanics, but it's far from ugly. He shoots the ball differently every time mainly due to how high gets off the floor on his lift which is why he can't knockdown his jumpers with rhythm. But I do see some elements in his shooting form that are key components to shooting the ball accurately; holding his follow-through after the release with good trajectory on the shot. The hinges in his shooting mechanics seems to be very similar to DeMar which are easily correctable. He doesn't jump straight up-and-down on his shot usually off-balance because his legs are always apart in the air. Look at DeMar earlier in the season, he was nailing jumpers because he corrected his landing by not kicking out his legs as much which affected his landing prior. I think that's the biggest element MKG needs to work on his is his landing. I don't really mind how he's a right-handed shooter, but shoots the ball on the left side of his body because of his long arms where it's harder for him to tuck in his elbow. Kevin Durant always shoots the ball with his elbow sticking out, so I don't see the problem.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ttiQ3E7xv0[/youtube]

Regarding MKG's size. If he measures out standing under 6'5" without shoes, then you might be onto something. But I highly doubt it. Andre Iguodala was listed at 6'5.75" without shoes in his predraft measurement which is considered below average based on the average measurements of a SF. But he made that up with his elite athleticism, quickness and wingspan which I believe MKG possesses too. What should be kept in mind is, MKG is only 18 years old, so he still has a year or two left where he can grow a few more inches.

[CunningLinguist]

I've seen the Kittles comparison around, and it depends on wherer you think Lamb is an on-ball player or off but there are definitely some similarities, particularly physical. I don't really like it, different approaches IMO, though I liked Kittles, who I remember as a smart player, a shooter and very good perimeter defender (how his knees went) but did not create much off the dribble though he could keep it alive. He was an excellent transition player on both sides, one of the best, and I'm not sure that's Lamb's mode.

Could you guys stop quoting that Steamy Rubbish guy?

Physically very similar - Kerry is listed as 6'5, 179 (i'm assuming that was from the combine, sure he bulked up a bit once he got to the nba) - Lamb is currently listed as 6'5, 185 on DE.

Kittles was a pesky defender (long arms) - Lamb has the potential to be similar, although I don't think you can really say he is good now

As a rook at Villanova,
Kittles averaged 10.9, 3.5 reb, 2.9 assists, 1.7 steals on 48% FG (43% from 3)
Lamb averaged 11pts, 4.5 reb, 1.6 ast, 0.9 stls on 48% FG (37% from 3)

As a soph,
Kittles averaged 19.7, 6.5 reb, 3.4 ast, 2.7 stls on 45% FG (35% from 3)
Lamb is averaging 17.6, 4.6 reb, 1.9 ast, 1.5 stls on 47% FG (37% from 3)

The raw numbers from college are very similar. You may be right about the shot creation stuff - I don't remember Kittles clearly from college to comment (getting old!)

Kittle went on to average 21, 6 and 3.5 and then 20, 7 and 3.5 in his jr and sr years at Villa

Kittles NBA career had PERs of 16, 17.5, 13, 16, 16, 18, 15, 10 in the nba - above average but not anything 'star' worthy really (the 18 came the year that the Nets lost 4-2 to the Spurs in the finals) and averaged 14 pts, 3.9 reb, 2.6 ast, 1.7 stl on 44% FG (38% from 3) over his 8 year career (7 really, only played 11 games for the Clips in his last season) - his best scoring season was 17.2 in his 2nd year.

A good player, but no star...

Not sure I agree about MKG being undersized - he's listed at 6'7, 228 - it will be interesting to see his combine results for sure.

The thing that made Kittles such a good player in college was his movement off the ball. He was constantly in motion. He would have made a really good pro if it not for his knee issues.

MKG looks about the same size as Demar, who was 6' 5.5" without shoes. He's pretty skinny too. My concern with him is his ability to generate offense in the half court. He can certainly defend, rebound and pass, but so can Terrence Jones and I don't see anyone discussing him as a high lottery pick.

Jones has the size to play PF and SF as well and I don't consider him a tweener because he can defend either position. I'm not saying Jones is as good, but he's closer to MKG than some would have you believe. Of course Gilchrist's effort is more consistent.

[Dr Positivity]

Steely, is that it's what you say, not who you are. If you want people to give a crap about what you say, and if you want to be not banned, less with the I'm God-nay, more with the grounded arguments-nay

Not to mention IIRC, and I read the Cavs board, you don't have much ground to stand on here. You thought Valanciunas and PJIII were the best guys in the draft over Irving and Williams. Neither of the former two have played in the NBA yet so there's no answer to that one way or the other. You've flipped flopped Mitt Romney style by trashing people who liked A Davis over PJIII, then put A Davis over PJIII on your own big board. You said Knight projects better than Irving in the league and thus you can't take Irving top 3 when you get can get Knight 5-8. I dug this up from 5 minutes of reading the Cavs 2011 draft thread. I don't even see anything remotely impressive about what you said last year with the results right now. So far your attempts to go contrarian against Irving as consensus #1 has blown up in your face. You thought Knight would go high in the draft when DX and Ford had him non lotto. Well most of us did as well, his drop from top 10 before the season to out of the top 20 made no sense at the time and he was playing better midway through the year. Not to mention that has nothing to do with scouting prospects as much as guessing where the mocks are going

Like I said you could do this with everyone (including myself) and find someone they screwed up on, but the difference is we aren't in "Mind like Einstein, mouth like Kanye, dick like Oden" mode. I only care about the person's post, not their history

[Marvin!]

The thing that made Kittles such a good player in college was his movement off the ball. He was constantly in motion. He would have made a really good pro if it not for his knee issues.

MKG looks about the same size as Demar, who was 6' 5.5" without shoes. He's pretty skinny too. My concern with him are his ability to generate offense in the half court. He can certainly defend, rebound and pass, but so can Terrence Jones and I don't see anyone discussing him as a high lottery pick.

Jones has the size to play PF and SF as well and I don't consider him a tweener because he can defend either position. I'm not saying Jones is as good, but he's closer to MKG than some would have you believe. Of course Gilchrist's effort is more consistent.

Fair enough - like I said I don't remember Kittles very clearly in college - the raw numbers are very similar though (and interesting that Kittles averaged alot more assists, given how everyone talks about Lamb's play-making ability).

The half-court offense thing is a little worrisome in MKG - although some could argue that Marion had similar issues coming into the NBA and adjusted well enough. Just love the hustle & heart that MKG seems to contribute plus the intangibles - the rebounding and defense are stellar, there are some flashes of play-making ability (or atleast smart passing ability), he can effectively slash to the rim at the college level... the heart and passion etc. Just so much to like - if he had a decent to good jumpshot he might be a much stronger case for #1 overall

[sunny]

out of curiosity, can anyone share their potential/expectation-pick number relationship?

first 2 picks - potential
3-7: realistic expectations
8-20 - mix
20-60: potential

[ATLTimekeeper]

MKG looks about the same size as Demar, who was 6' 5.5" without shoes. He's pretty skinny too. My concern with him is his ability to generate offense in the half court. He can certainly defend, rebound and pass, but so can Terrence Jones and I don't see anyone discussing him as a high lottery pick.

Jones has the size to play PF and SF as well and I don't consider him a tweener because he can defend either position. I'm not saying Jones is as good, but he's closer to MKG than some would have you believe. Of course Gilchrist's effort is more consistent.

I think the main difference between Jones and MKG is that Jones will be out of the league by the end of his rookie deal. MKG is a legitimate defensive difference-maker and leader.

[CunningLinguist]

The thing that made Kittles such a good player in college was his movement off the ball. He was constantly in motion. He would have made a really good pro if it not for his knee issues.

MKG looks about the same size as Demar, who was 6' 5.5" without shoes. He's pretty skinny too. My concern with him are his ability to generate offense in the half court. He can certainly defend, rebound and pass, but so can Terrence Jones and I don't see anyone discussing him as a high lottery pick.

Jones has the size to play PF and SF as well and I don't consider him a tweener because he can defend either position. I'm not saying Jones is as good, but he's closer to MKG than some would have you believe. Of course Gilchrist's effort is more consistent.

Fair enough - like I said I don't remember Kittles very clearly in college - the raw numbers are very similar though (and interesting that Kittles averaged alot more assists, given how everyone talks about Lamb's play-making ability).

The half-court offense thing is a little worrisome in MKG - although some could argue that Marion had similar issues coming into the NBA and adjusted well enough. Just love the hustle & heart that MKG seems to contribute plus the intangibles - the rebounding and defense are stellar, there are some flashes of play-making ability (or atleast smart passing ability), he can effectively slash to the rim at the college level... the heart and passion etc. Just so much to like - if he had a decent to good jumpshot he might be a much stronger case for #1 overall

I agree with you on the hustle and intangibles that MKG possesses but I would argue that someone like Terrence Williams had the same attributes and impact on the college game. I think MKG will be better than TWill due to his higher basketball IQ, but they both have their flaws on the offensive end while being good at defense, rebounding and passing.

Anybody else concerned that such a big part of Gilchrist's game is dependent on his high activity level? It's one thing to play at that pace for 30 to 35 college games, but to sustain that for 82 games in the pros will be difficult and will possibly make him susceptible to wear and tear (see Gerald Wallace)

[CunningLinguist]

MKG looks about the same size as Demar, who was 6' 5.5" without shoes. He's pretty skinny too. My concern with him is his ability to generate offense in the half court. He can certainly defend, rebound and pass, but so can Terrence Jones and I don't see anyone discussing him as a high lottery pick.

Jones has the size to play PF and SF as well and I don't consider him a tweener because he can defend either position. I'm not saying Jones is as good, but he's closer to MKG than some would have you believe. Of course Gilchrist's effort is more consistent.

I think the main difference between Jones and MKG is that Jones will be out of the league by the end of his rookie deal. MKG is a legitimate defensive difference-maker and leader.

I'm talking about skillset. They bring a lot of the same things to the table (minus Jones' on-off motor). TJones is a very good defender.

[Dr Positivity]

I have T Jones as a bit underrated as well. I could see 15 and 9 in the NBA for him even if he's a bit enigmatic. If he drops to 18th or something that's a steal

[Undefeated]

I think once MKG reaches the NBA, he'll show more of what he can do in a half-court offense due to more space that he will have to work with. Despite how packed the paint is at the collegiate level, he's still showing that he can breakdown the defense and get to the hoop making his lay-ups. He's not that handicapped off the dribble per se. He's similar to Gerald Wallace right now, in that, he takes two or three strong, power dribbles to the rim combined with his explosive first step, upper body strength and aggressiveness. When his man is glued to him, he does an excellent job of utilizing a spin to get past his man like he did yesterday against Bradley Beal for the and-one. I think he's a lot more crafty than the credit he's given for.

[CunningLinguist]

I think once MKG reaches the NBA, he'll show more of what he can do in a half-court offense due to more space that he will have to work with. Despite how packed the paint is at the collegiate level, he's still showing that he can breakdown the defense and get to the hoop making his lay-ups. He's not that handicapped off the dribble per se. He's similar to Gerald Wallace right now, in that, he takes two or three strong, power dribbles to the rim combined with his explosive first step, upper body strength and aggressiveness. When his man is glued to him, he does an excellent job of utilizing a spin to get past his man like he did yesterday against Bradley Beal for the and-one. I think he's a lot more crafty than the credit he's given for.

I've seen him have a lot of difficulty finishing in traffic, especially against size (see the St. John's game where Dieng stuffed him 3 times). I saw the play you mentioned, and it was the best move I've seen from him all year, but he relies a lot on spin moves, similar to Derozan, rather than breaking guys down off the dribble.

[DreamTeam09]

I think MKG iso could be on display a little more and is prolly underrated or under valued as far as he is concern. His shot could use a couple of summers or a lot of nights/mornings in the gym. I wouldn't mind if we end up with him. I don't think he's a star on his own, but I think he could be forcefed to stardom.

[Dr Positivity]

out of curiosity, can anyone share their potential/expectation-pick number relationship?

first 2 picks - potential
3-7: realistic expectations
8-20 - mix
20-60: potential

Not sure what you mean, do you mean like

1st pick - Franchise player
2-7 - Lower level/"David West" all-star
8-12 - Top 15 at their position starter
13-20 - Borderline starter
21-30 - Usable bench player

That's if I was picking. I have Barnes and MKG in the "top 15 starter" 8-12 group but it looks like they go 2-7 which mixes the brew somewhat. I think this is the best draft in years to be picking 9th or 10th. I believe there'll be multiple all-star talents on the board at that point. I have 9th in this year's draft as easily more valuable than 4th in last year's one. Cleveland would take this year's Lamb, Sullinger, Henson, Moultrie over last year's T Thompson without even thinking about it

[chrisanna]

"For me its definetly Beal. Taller, better athlete, better defender, better rebounder, better FT shooter. Almost 1 full year younger. (Rivers is aug. 1 1992, Beal is June 28 1993)"

Beal isnt taller than Rivers. At 2011 skills academy, Rivers measured 6'5 in shoes w/ 6'7 wingspan.
Beal has same wingspan but only measured 6'3.5 in shoes

[Alfred]

out of curiosity, can anyone share their potential/expectation-pick number relationship?

first 2 picks - potential
3-7: realistic expectations
8-20 - mix
20-60: potential

Not sure what you mean, do you mean like

1st pick - Franchise player
2-7 - Lower level/"David West" all-star
8-12 - Top 15 at their position starter
13-20 - Borderline starter
21-30 - Usable bench player

That's if I was picking. I have Barnes and MKG in the "top 15 starter" 8-12 group but it looks like they go 2-7 which mixes the brew somewhat. I think this is the best draft in years to be picking 9th or 10th. I believe there'll be multiple all-star talents on the board at that point. I have 9th in this year's draft as easily more valuable than 4th in last year's one. Cleveland would take this year's Lamb, Sullinger, Henson, Moultrie over last year's T Thompson without even thinking about it

This is something that 82games.com has discussed. Check out their draft pick success chart:

http://82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

[fredericklove]

About MKG, his size shouldn't be a concern, at worst he's 6'6 w/ shoes, but bwt 6'6 to 6'7, that is a legit SF size. He also plays bigger than his size cos of his aggressive power SF style but good thing is he doesn't have t-rex arms and right now yes he is abit skinny but he's known for being a gym rat. He practically gets to the gym early in the morning to workout/practice, with NBA-level training workout I can see his body changes tremendously in offseason or a year or two especially he plays such an aggressive style its hard not to see training staff wants him to get bigger.

I do have concern about his offense. But he seems like he can find other ways to score, mostly from transition I know, but half court, he just knows ways to draw foul (attacking the lane, getting offensive rebound and go up again and draw fouls)....that's why he will have to bulk up. He doesn't really engage to score prolly of his unselfishness but when he sees opportunities he will attack. And he has shown an NBA move quite often, not alot of them but when he drives into the lane, his hands are high up with two power dribbles going up like Dwade does. That move is pretty legit cos its unlikely he gets stripped. I'm not sure if baby hook is gonna work in the nba, he uses that over smaller defenders...but I just see him having Gerald Wallace type of offense, slash and attack when he sees tiny opening. I know y'all want a legit go-to-scorer, but we do have bargs as primary option, and pray demar to improve everything, so MKG can be 2nd or 3rd option I don't see a big problem with that cos MKG does so much more than just scoring anyways.

And being wear and tear from being so aggressive on the floor, that's part of his game, injuries are unpredictable, even some guys out there who doesn't play as hard or being aggressive will still get injuries. That part of his game is making huge impact on the court, so its a risk and gamble but if you want an impact player, there have to be sacrifices. Some might stay injury-free, look at Iggy he was an iron man for first 5-6 years.

[fredericklove]

"For me its definetly Beal. Taller, better athlete, better defender, better rebounder, better FT shooter. Almost 1 full year younger. (Rivers is aug. 1 1992, Beal is June 28 1993)"

Beal isnt taller than Rivers. At 2011 skills academy, Rivers measured 6'5 in shoes w/ 6'7 wingspan.
Beal has same wingspan but only measured 6'3.5 in shoes

I agree Beal is not taller, but his arms are so much longer than River's t-rex arms and Beal plays bigger than his size too. River might have more offensive production, however Beal will have better all around game imo.