Game 25: Phoenix Suns (10-14) @ Milwaukee Bucks (10-13)

[RunDogGun]

Build a foundation on guesses? How is that a foundation? Almost every young team ends up up looking for vet leadership to help their struggling young team. If you already have that, why try and go backwards?

And the tankers best hope is to only suck for few years, but in reality, they want to suck for a few years, and all of a sudden flip a switch and turn those previous losers into winners. Hoping that you have young loyal guys willing to suck and not bolt to the nearest winner.

Good way to show team loyalty is trade away the guy that brought this team back from the lotto, and is your teams all time assist leader.and while you're at it, trade away their best center in the last few decades to further prove you point.

Sometimes young guys fold under the pressure, and expecting them to lead you out of years of sucking is a huge stretch and gamble. The other side of the coin, what if our next rook does become a decent leader, but just puts us in the 13-15 range for the next few years? Still a huge crapshoot, and with an owner not known for having GMs, who draft or scout well.

[lilfishi22]

They wouldn't be building around Nash after they get the 1 or 2 star players. They'd be building around those players. Nash is the enticement to get them to sign. Without Nash you have nothing. You can't build a young up and coming team around players gotten solely through the draft. You'll still need veteran FAs, and you get rid of Nash, and you're going to be overpaying crappy FAs to play alongside the two or 3 drafted young players.

Exactly grumpysaddle, we have nothing without Nash! Once again, I propose this question, why would 1 or 2 star players sign a long term deal with us if their only enticement is 1, maybe 2 years of a 40 year old Nash? This is why we need to build through the draft. Money is still a big reason for signing with a team, but when money is being offered everywhere, the star players go for a team that can win. These star players won't come here because we have Nash for 2 seasons and then a few seasons of rebuild with *nothing.* I'm not advocating getting rid of Nash just to get rid of Nash.

If the Suns do it right, who says there has to be a rebuilding period after Nash leaves? Stay competitive and bring in the right pieces. Draw the big name FAs in with Nash, and let them know that they'll be phased in over the course of time to be the center of the rebuild. Grabbing a good player in the draft is great, but demolishing the foundation of your team is not the way to do it.

Looking at the moves our front office has made (a 2nd and Dragic for a PG who might not ever play for us again, overpaying for FA's in JChill and Warrick, signing a shooting guard who can't shoot and a poing guard who can't run a point in Brown and Telfair.) where do you get the confidence that we would be able to reload without any issues and successfully? What foundation do we have exactly? Far as I can see, Nash is our everything, the foundation and the roof covering our heads. We have no real prospects outside of Kieff (and Lopez if you count him). Gortat, Dudley and Frye are all decent deals, but no stars are coming here to play with those 3. I'm not saying we're not going to sign anyone when we get some cap space, but looking at B&B's history and the kind of guys that would be around for the long term, it's hard to believe talented players are lining up to play for the Suns. Unless you go with the argument that Phoenix is some sort of magical FA destination that would make them forget who they would be left to play with in 2 seasons after Nash is gone.

[RunDogGun]

So you don't believe in our FO to deliver FAs when they have really only had vet min contracts to offer and at most the MLE, but you expect them to draft perfectly?

[lilfishi22]

Build a foundation on guesses? How is that a foundation? Almost every young team ends up up looking for vet leadership to help their struggling young team. If you already have that, why try and go backwards?

And the tankers best hope is to only suck for few years, but in reality, they want to suck for a few years, and all of a sudden flip a switch and turn those previous losers into winners. Hoping that you have young loyal guys willing to suck and not bolt to the nearest winner.

Good way to show team loyalty is trade away the guy that brought this team back from the lotto, and is your teams all time assist leader.and while you're at it, trade away their best center in the last few decades to further prove you point.

Sometimes young guys fold under the pressure, and expecting them to lead you out of years of sucking is a huge stretch and gamble. The other side of the coin, what if our next rook does become a decent leader, but just puts us in the 13-15 range for the next few years? Still a huge crapshoot, and with an owner not known for having GMs, who draft or scout well.

If that's the worst case scenario of building through the draft than I say go for it. Young guys are cheap and tradeable. The alternative is rebuilding through FA signings, which means the worst case scenarios is having an expensive long term contract we can't trade.

Look at the guys that has been on our roster since B&B has taken over. The only good player that they've brought in is Gortat and Kieff. I'd rather we take chances in the draft than trust B&B to get us through this with their "big FA signings." I just don't see what's so bad about building a foundation through the draft. Yes, it's taking chances. Yes, we might blow our pick on a bust. But rookies are young, tradeable and cheap. The last thing I want is to see B&B overpaying for a player that isn't even that good and handcuff us financially for years.

So you don't believe in our FO to deliver FAs when they have really only had vet min contracts to offer and at most the MLE, but you expect them to draft perfectly?

Nothing is perfect. I don't expect us to draft perfectly and I certainly don't expect B&B to work free agency perfectly either. I'm not annoyed because B&B couldn't get us established talent with what we have to offer. I'm annoyed that we don't give chances to guys who could help and instead give deals to guys who have failed in the past and resting all their hopes that Nash would somehow turn them into a serviceable player.

[RunDogGun]

Why does it have to be rebuild through one or the other? Why can't it be rebuild through both? Tanking and getting rid of our assets means only one option, and you and others have said its our only option. I disagree.

My only concern is getting rid of Nash, before we have a proven leader to take his place. Now that doesn't have to be another player or point even. It could be a coach.

But if you feel that B&B have difficulty assessing talent, who have years of NBA experience, how the heck do you expect them to asses guys that have zero NBA experience? You're placing all of our eggs in one basket, and that basket has some clear holes in it.

[lilfishi22]

Why does it have to be rebuild through one or the other? Why can't it be rebuild through both? Tanking and getting rid of our assets means only one option, and you and others have said its our only option. I disagree.

My only concern is getting rid of Nash, before we have a proven leader to take his place. Now that doesn't have to be another player or point even. It could be a coach.

But if you feel that B&B have difficulty assessing talent, who have years of NBA experience, how the heck do you expect them to asses guys that have zero NBA experience? You're placing all of our eggs in one basket, and that basket has some clear holes in it.

My issue stems from the fact that there are fans here who want to ride the Nash train until it breaksdown and then worry about it after. Those fans who believe that as long as we have Nash, we can contend for playoffs and attract FA. My belief is that time with Nash at the centre of everything Phoenix Sun is over and it should NOT be a factor for our decision making going into the future. Unless Nash has said he intends to play another 5-6 seasons and we can safely expect a *very* slow decline, then I don't think we can expect Nash being a major decision for FA's signing with the Suns and vet FA's coming here to rejuvenate their career.

To clarify, I'm not in favor of tanking for years until we find the guy we want. I'm in favor of playing our young guys to develop them and build value in guys that don't have much value now so we can sell them high. If that strategy means we could lose some games then so be it. At the very least, we'd have a high draft pick in a very deep draft, we'd have assets that are more appealing and we'd have young guys who have a lot more experience. Is that such a bad thing?

[RunDogGun]

I have no problem playing our young guys, but it isn't Nash who is hindering that, it's Gentry and our front office not signing young guys. No one has made us an offer for Nash, that makes sense for us, so why be hell bent on trading him? You have to rid out the Nash train, because he is the best we can get at that spot. If you're looking at the draft, I don't see one point guard that can even hold Nash's croch. And in FA, I only see DWill, so why take on the bad contract we will have to obsorb just to get a late first, who may or may not do something in this league.

There is no greater floor leader, I would want my young guys learning from than Nash. And Gortat is a beast, I don't think we will find a draft pick that will fill that spot. Plus at the spot we will draft at, sf/sg are the greatest needs we have if we keep Nash and Gortat.

With our shooters starting to hit their shots, there is no guarantee we will suck enough to get a top five spot. There are teams way worse than us even without Nash. Plus with the injury bug hitting so many guys young and old, there is no guarantee that the teams below us won't continue to lose games.

If we keep Nash (get him to re-sign) and Gortat, that leaves two less positions for B&B to f*ck up.

[Kerrsed]

If you're looking at the draft, I don't see one point guard that can even hold Nash's croch.

Kabongo.

[lilfishi22]

I have no problem playing our young guys, but it isn't Nash who is hindering that, it's Gentry and our front office not signing young guys. No one has made us an offer for Nash, that makes sense for us, so why be hell bent on trading him? You have to rid out the Nash train, because he is the best we can get at that spot. If you're looking at the draft, I don't see one point guard that can even hold Nash's croch. And in FA, I only see DWill, so why take on the bad contract we will have to obsorb just to get a late first, who may or may not do something in this league.

There is no greater floor leader, I would want my young guys learning from than Nash. And Gortat is a beast, I don't think we will find a draft pick that will fill that spot. Plus at the spot we will draft at, sf/sg are the greatest needs we have if we keep Nash and Gortat.

With our shooters starting to hit their shots, there is no guarantee we will suck enough to get a top five spot. There are teams way worse than us even without Nash. Plus with the injury bug hitting so many guys young and old, there is no guarantee that the teams below us won't continue to lose games.

If we keep Nash (get him to re-sign) and Gortat, that leaves two less positions for B&B to f*ck up.

Mate I agree with you here, I don't want to trade Nash just to trade him. And I don't think, for one second, that he's hindering our progress going forward. All I'm saying is that we can't base our decisions on our future around Nash anymore. Sure you can make a case for keeping him to mentor the youngsters, but to talk about him like he's our ETERNAL LEADER like he's actually going to be with us forever is crazy. Once again, we shouldn't be drafting someone hoping they can replace Nash, we should draft someone talented who can come into their own as a great player.

I'm just saying that in situations, for example, we're looking at FA, we should not base our choices on who plays best with Nash, but who plays the team game the best. With the free agency list looking fairly slim and us sucking, I think it's logical to look towards the draft.

[Kerrsed]

I'm just saying that in situations, for example, we're looking at FA, we should not base our choices on who plays best with Nash, but who plays the team game the best.

We do this every year. Yeah....Warrick isnt that good, but he has never played with NASH! Sign him right up! Sure Childress never really did anything in the league, or in Greece, but he never had Nash passing him the ball! GIVE THAT MAN A $7M CONTRACT!

We always end up picking up so-so role players, hoping Nash can inflate their stats, then give away the actual superstars that can play.

[grumpysaddle]

Who's said that we think Nash will be around forever? He's got at least 2-3 great years left in him, if not more (which is ridiculous considering his age and the beating he takes every game). I agree that you bring in the best young players that are team oriented that you can, but you don't need to completely suck to do that.

Who should the Suns be playing that they aren't already? Telfair should be benched for Price, but there's really no other young guys worth playing. Lopez has been getting some burn lately, and he's been pretty good. They're already playing Morris a good amount, and he only limits himself with foul trouble occasionally. Who else on the roster should the Suns play? Warrick? Not young, not worth playing. Brown? He's proven that he doesn't have what it takes to play team basketball, which I'm guessing is the reason he's benched. There's no one else on the team that isn't playing. The younger guys are getting their time.

You have Nash/Gortat that are good to great players. You can put pieces next to them without having to blow everything up. Dudley seems like a really popular guy around the league, and I'm sure people would like to be on his team.

You get Nash to commit for a few more years, and use him and Gortat (who is playing better than anyone imagined) to bring other players in that fit the team oriented style. Then you use those players to attract others.

Childress has been a letdown, but he's turning it around, and the team looks like they understand how to use him. I'm not mad about that signing. B&B didn't sign Warrick. Every other signing they made is a one-year deal, if it works great, if not, no big deal. Telfair can be bought out cheaply after this season.

You say that it's a very deep draft this year, so there should be stars hiding in the later picks.

No trade has made sense to move Nash, as the Suns will never get fair value in return. I understand they can maybe pick up some young guys, but the teams trading those young guys would likely be getting rid of them for a reason.

Building through FA, and drafting wisely is the best way to rebuild. No need to blow it completely up.

[mybloodisorange]

Except there are really 3 baskets- draft, free agency and trade. And you have to use all 3 when you're starting from scratch when rebuilding. I think the Suns need to be agressive in all 3 areas to be good again because once Nash nad Hill retire we really dont have much. Suns basically have good centers with Gortat/Frye (Lopez will have been traded or signed elsewhere) and with Morris and Dudley coming off the bench for the forward spots and then not much else.

If I was GM I would trade Lopez and Nash immediately looking for picks in compensation or even just the unloading of a bad contract ie Warrick/Chilly. Then start Telfair the remainder of this year and next and for sure we will get the 5th or 6th pick in the draft. Lots of good forwards in the draft so you go for best talent available avoiding wasting a quality pick on a nonlottery PG then play the free agent market over the summer but also not pressing into overpaying for something or signing someone who doesnt positively affect the rebuilding project. I would rather have 2 bad years than 8 average ones I guess is what im saying. But then when you look at the money side of it you realize its hard as hell for most anyone as an owner to just kiss that money goodbye since you know revenue would tank with the team for those 2 years.

Sorry I just played the what if I was the GM game in a game thread btw.

[mybloodisorange]

I'm just saying that in situations, for example, we're looking at FA, we should not base our choices on who plays best with Nash, but who plays the team game the best.

We do this every year. Yeah....Warrick isnt that good, but he has never played with NASH! Sign him right up! Sure Childress never really did anything in the league, or in Greece, but he never had Nash passing him the ball! GIVE THAT MAN A $7M CONTRACT!

We always end up picking up so-so role players, hoping Nash can inflate their stats, then give away the actual superstars that can play.

Hurts so bad because its true

JJ, Marion, Amare, Hot Rod Williams the list goes on and on.

[RunDogGun]

Where does the two years come from? If Nash goes, we have no leader. He isn't the eternal leader, he is the ONLY leader we have. Gentry to me, sucks terribly, and has never proven anything in this league as head coach. The rest of the other coaches have proven nothing as well. If Hill became an assistant coach this year, maybe he would be the second best leader we have. But if Nash is traded, he isn't coming back here.

Tanking and or letting Telfair ruin, I mean run this team will taint not only next year, but many years to come. You are just going down the GS route.

If we don't get multiple high picks from trades, this FO will panic and overpay guys ruining years to come. Just see how much they panicked when we lost Amare.

I would be putting all my extra money in scouting. It doesn't go against the cap, and only good things will come from it. I still feel we missed out on getting Lighty, SWilliams, and some other young guys that weren't drafted. It would be like having a late second rounder for even less money. We drafted Gortat late in the second round, we just weren't smart enough to keep him.

But we didn't do that, we grabbed terrible guys that will have no future with us except maybe Price. It just makes me not trust this FO. Why have them do a fire sale, and put all our future in their hands?

If we had a bunch of high draft picks, I would draft the Kentucky team, but since that would be almost impossible, I'll stick with the guys we have, draft well, and make minor tweaks. I would trade Lopez to ATL for our second rounder back and sign Lou next year.

Oh well, we are going in circles. We are stuck with this FO and our owner.

[lilfishi22]

Who's said that we think Nash will be around forever? He's got at least 2-3 great years left in him, if not more (which is ridiculous considering his age and the beating he takes every game). I agree that you bring in the best young players that are team oriented that you can, but you don't need to completely suck to do that.

Who should the Suns be playing that they aren't already? Telfair should be benched for Price, but there's really no other young guys worth playing. Lopez has been getting some burn lately, and he's been pretty good. They're already playing Morris a good amount, and he only limits himself with foul trouble occasionally. Who else on the roster should the Suns play? Warrick? Not young, not worth playing. Brown? He's proven that he doesn't have what it takes to play team basketball, which I'm guessing is the reason he's benched. There's no one else on the team that isn't playing. The younger guys are getting their time.

You have Nash/Gortat that are good to great players. You can put pieces next to them without having to blow everything up. Dudley seems like a really popular guy around the league, and I'm sure people would like to be on his team.

The way he's playing he's probably serviceable for another 5-6 seasons as long as we keep decreasing his role over time. The only issue here is that as long as he's running the show and as long as we're looking FA's or draftees with the mindset that they *have* to be able to play well with Nash, than we're not building for the future. And I'm not saying we should shouldn't give 100% effort, I'm just saying we should be building the value for guys who have very low value at the moment with intention of selling them high when/if the time comes. I'm talking about guys like Childress, Lopez, Warrick, Frye and Telfair. No, it might not be a winning formula this season but if our best efforts can only afford us 10th best in the West, then why not take a step back and play these guys more to boost their value?

And please, nobody joins a team because some borderline starter on a bad team "seems popular." We're not bringing in the FA because we have a few nice guys after Nash is done. If Gortat is our best player after Nash, then why would FA's join us knowing Nash may only be effective for another 1-3 years? We need guys to get FA excited to play with us.

You get Nash to commit for a few more years, and use him and Gortat (who is playing better than anyone imagined) to bring other players in that fit the team oriented style. Then you use those players to attract others.

Childress has been a letdown, but he's turning it around, and the team looks like they understand how to use him. I'm not mad about that signing. B&B didn't sign Warrick. Every other signing they made is a one-year deal, if it works great, if not, no big deal. Telfair can be bought out cheaply after this season.

You say that it's a very deep draft this year, so there should be stars hiding in the later picks.

No trade has made sense to move Nash, as the Suns will never get fair value in return. I understand they can maybe pick up some young guys, but the teams trading those young guys would likely be getting rid of them for a reason.

Building through FA, and drafting wisely is the best way to rebuild. No need to blow it completely up.

Once again we're relying on Nash again to attract FA's. I just can't see star FA's joining us knowing that we may only have Nash for a few more seasons. I'm talking about FA's that get other players excited to join us. List of FA's who might be around in the next couple of years isn't great, the pickings are slim at best. Most of the guys who would be great for the Suns would most likely be extended. Teams won't let guys like Harden, Collison, Lawson and CP3 go. We might have a chance to grab Eric Gordon or Tyreke Evans, only because the Sac-town and NOH have never really been a city that attracts FA's. I would rather try our luck in this draft and build our future with the rookie as part of the core. And before someone assumes anything about my intentions, I *do not* want us to tank for years until we luck out on a Lebron. I just want us to take a small step back this season so we can set ourselves up better for the future.

[lilfishi22]

I'm just saying that in situations, for example, we're looking at FA, we should not base our choices on who plays best with Nash, but who plays the team game the best.

We do this every year. Yeah....Warrick isnt that good, but he has never played with NASH! Sign him right up! Sure Childress never really did anything in the league, or in Greece, but he never had Nash passing him the ball! GIVE THAT MAN A $7M CONTRACT!

We always end up picking up so-so role players, hoping Nash can inflate their stats, then give away the actual superstars that can play.

Because they can't play with Nash. But that's exactly my point, I think we're looking into the wrong bargain bin. Instead of looking into the old and washed up or change-of-scenery-needed vet bin, we should be looking into the undrafted or d-league pool for talent. I thought we did well picking up guys like Janning, Dowdell and Siler. They are cheap, easy to trade or let go, and if they actually turn out serviceable, they could be cheap to retain and actually have some development potential.

[lilfishi22]

Where does the two years come from? If Nash goes, we have no leader. He isn't the eternal leader, he is the ONLY leader we have. Gentry to me, sucks terribly, and has never proven anything in this league as head coach. The rest of the other coaches have proven nothing as well. If Hill became an assistant coach this year, maybe he would be the second best leader we have. But if Nash is traded, he isn't coming back here.

Tanking and or letting Telfair ruin, I mean run this team will taint not only next year, but many years to come. You are just going down the GS route.

If we don't get multiple high picks from trades, this FO will panic and overpay guys ruining years to come. Just see how much they panicked when we lost Amare.

I would be putting all my extra money in scouting. It doesn't go against the cap, and only good things will come from it. I still feel we missed out on getting Lighty, SWilliams, and some other young guys that weren't drafted. It would be like having a late second rounder for even less money. We drafted Gortat late in the second round, we just weren't smart enough to keep him.

But we didn't do that, we grabbed terrible guys that will have no future with us except maybe Price. It just makes me not trust this FO. Why have them do a fire sale, and put all our future in their hands?

If we had a bunch of high draft picks, I would draft the Kentucky team, but since that would be almost impossible, I'll stick with the guys we have, draft well, and make minor tweaks. I would trade Lopez to ATL for our second rounder back and sign Lou next year.

Oh well, we are going in circles. We are stuck with this FO and our owner.

Again, I'm not in favor of having a firesale or ridding ourselves of Nash. Just beacuse I'm not opposed to moving anyone on our team, doesn't mean we should be actively looking to trade away everyone because this team sucks. I would like Gortat to be part of the core however, we shouldn't be so stubborn to say this player or that player is untouchable.

[thamadkant]

I think everyone already knows my stance on the tank debate.

All I'm going to say is...

1. This coming draft... BPA. No more of this "he brings in versatility and toughness" excuse to draft a piece that can play with current system. We draft most talented rookie regardless of position.

I think A.Davis is going to be a play making PF/C who plays all NBA D. Such A shame is almost zero game we draft when he is available.