Tribune: Thibodeau stresses players should play if .....

[P.C.]

I don't have a game in mind. And I don't need one. The fact that it was Deng's first game back after an extended absence is, in itself, a validation of the minutes. For all you know - or for all I know - Deng wanted those extra minutes to shake off the rust in low stress blow-out context, and Thibs agreed for basketball reasons.

Deng's tendon is already torn. Its a pain tolerance thing. And Deng has firmly proven that his extended minutes do not adversely impact his game or his health.

My point is that Thib's minute allocations involving players with or coming off of injuries are radical and fair game for criticism. People who disagree with me seem to think this is a nonissue. If it's a non issue there should be precedent. There should be some similar decision made by some respected coach at some time.

If you and the sizable group of people here who disagree with me can't think of one game, after all of the basketball you've watched, then it's time to re-evaluate.

[coldfish]

The Bulls have probably had more blowouts than any other team (see point differential) so your statement just doesn't hold. I just don't understand where you're coming from, Coldfish. You seem to be reaching to me: especially your comment about European ball. If you're actively reaching for support for a proposition than perhaps you've become stubborn on an issue and aren't seeing things clearly.

To the best of my knowledge, I didn't make any comments about European ball. I even went backed and looked.

Overall, I normally hate insulting groups of people and kind of regret doing it here, but come on. The doctors are clearing these guys. They aren't playing absurd minutes. The Bulls distribute their minutes more than any other team in the league.

Despite all that, there is a massive number of complaints on this board about overplaying people with no thought to actually winning games. I have never seen anything like it. Sure, a few comments about "hey, it would be nice if Derrick got pulled a few minutes earlier" might be warranted, but the current ongoing deluge is, as I said, insane. Its like group panic.

Guys might get injured. It happens. If they do, its bad.

That being said, the Bulls two biggest injuries were random. Deng got hit on the arm and Rose got landed on. There isn't even any correlation to the minutes, unless someone is taking the position that Rose and Deng should sit until the playoffs.

[Cliff Levingston]

The Bulls have probably had more blowouts than any other team (see point differential) so your statement just doesn't hold. I just don't understand where you're coming from, Coldfish. You seem to be reaching to me: especially your comment about European ball. If you're actively reaching for support for a proposition than perhaps you've become stubborn on an issue and aren't seeing things clearly.

To the best of my knowledge, I didn't make any comments about European ball. I even went backed and looked.

Overall, I normally hate insulting groups of people and kind of regret doing it here, but come on. The doctors are clearing these guys. They aren't playing absurd minutes. The Bulls distribute their minutes more than any other team in the league.

Despite all that, there is a massive number of complaints on this board about overplaying people with no thought to actually winning games. I have never seen anything like it. Sure, a few comments about "hey, it would be nice if Derrick got pulled a few minutes earlier" might be warranted, but the current ongoing deluge is, as I said, insane. Its like group panic.

Guys might get injured. It happens. If they do, its bad.

That being said, the Bulls two biggest injuries were random. Deng got hit on the arm and Rose got landed on. There isn't even any correlation to the minutes, unless someone is taking the position that Rose and Deng should sit until the playoffs.

...and Taj and Noah both sprained ankles coming down off a jump. C.J. dove for a ball and had someone dive into his arm, dislocating it.

The only significant injury we've had that can be considered fatigue related is Rip's groin and leg... but that happened only a couple games in, so it's hard to argue that the accumulation of too many minutes led to that one. Rip may have tried to come back too early but that's on him and the doctors before it's on Thibodeau.

[DuckIII]

Nice to see you Duck.....I was waiting for your statement.
Now I'm just waiting for Mr no.3 and for Mr 3 1/2....and the dream team is PERFECT!!!

It's incredible how some "old guys" oh sorry, I meant some "experts" here the ability have to destroy threads when they disagree; with s*** like:

You guys are just trying to find something to bitch about.

Thanks guys.....

I have to admit, I don't understand this post or your "some special guys" post earlier. Do you have a problem with me believing Thibs' minute distribution strategy is a non-issue and overblown?

I think its also worth pointing out that the article shows that Thibs does appreciate the need for rest, and approaches it by how he handles the off days this season:

While some fans howl about a semi-injured Rose suiting up against subpar teams, Thibodeau said what's not seen is the rest his players get on off days.

"If you cut back practice time and do more film (study), you can get rest," he said. "How you pace your team is important … so you can be healthy at the end of the season and playing your best."

Here's the flip side: "Can you develop the proper habits you need to be successful late (in the season)? The only way you build those habits is by doing your work. If you don't do your work and expect to play well at the end, that's just foolish."

I agree with Thibs 100% on this issue.

[northbrookrich]

I've never seen a coach play a player coming back from injuries through the end of blowouts like Thibodeau has the season. We can even broaden that: I've never seen a coach play players, regardless of whether they are healthy or not, through the end of blowouts like Thibodeau has this season.

I don't have time to scour over every game and every boxscore to give you lots of examples, so I just found one. This does not address the injury point, but it does address players in the game in the 4th quarter of blowouts:

Miami Heat vs. San Antonio Spurs on January 17th. Heat blew out the Spurs by 22 points. LeBron and Bosh were both in the game until 3 minutes 44 seconds left in the 4th quarter even though they were winning by 26 points at that point. Duncan played only 27 minutes in the game and it does not appear that he played at all in the 4th quarter. Bosh played 37 minutes on this night and LeBron played 35.

Maybe you just need to watch more basketball games. I'm sure there are many other such examples.

Just for giggles, I found another one. Veteran Pau Gasol who is old enough that he should clearly be rested in blowouts played 37 minutes in a 25 point blowout of the Utah Jazz on December 27th. He was in until 1 minute 51 seconds left in the 4th quarter. Oh and by the way, this was the 3rd game in 3 nights for the Lakers.

As another poster pointed out, the Bulls are not doing anything different than the other teams in the league are doing. This is just nitpicking on something that has worked fine with 30+ year old veterans, let alone with 23 and 26 year-old kids.

[Red Larrivee]

The fact that this is a constant issue on the Bulls board is patently insane. You guys are just trying to find something to bitch about.

THANK YOU.

+1 to Duck and others too, but this is the lamest non-issue that I've ever seen people so up in arms over. Newsflash: you can't determine how "tired" a basketball player is by the minutes they play in a game. These players spend countless minutes practicing, working out, conditioning and other stuff to stay in game shape and to compete every night. They've been playing basketball their entire lives. They are built for this.

If the minutes were a problem, our players and management would've already said something. You don't coach with a stopwatch and there is no correlation between getting rest and winning a championship. Get over it and find something else to whine about.

[DuckIII]

I don't have a game in mind. And I don't need one. The fact that it was Deng's first game back after an extended absence is, in itself, a validation of the minutes. For all you know - or for all I know - Deng wanted those extra minutes to shake off the rust in low stress blow-out context, and Thibs agreed for basketball reasons.

Deng's tendon is already torn. Its a pain tolerance thing. And Deng has firmly proven that his extended minutes do not adversely impact his game or his health.

My point is that Thib's minute allocations involving players with or coming off of injuries are radical and fair game for criticism. People who disagree with me seem to think this is a nonissue. If it's a non issue there should be precedent. There should be some similar decision made by some respected coach at some time.

If you and the sizable group of people here who disagree with me can't think of one game, after all of the basketball you've watched, then it's time to re-evaluate.

Well, nycrich did it. But he didn't need to. Its a non-issue with Thibs doing it. So if I saw someone else doing it, it would likewise be a non-issue to me, and I wouldn't take special note of it.

[CousinOfDeath]

Back spasms aren't something that just goes away. Playing when it's still flaring is definitely ill-advised.

[DASMACKDOWN]

This is in reference to Doug,

KCJHoop K.C Johnson
RT @TeddyGreenstein: Rose: "The back’s feeling better. I should be ready to go tonight. "

This is coming from the horses mouth.

If you were coach and your star says what Rose said, do you then proceed to say, screw you, you are sitting down?

Thibs still limited Rose's minutes.

And for injuries there is still a period of hesistation or hurt but its not stopping you from playing.

Seems like how you guys are putting it, if you were the Lakers coach, Kobe would yet to play this season.

Like I said before, its 20 minutes against a very weak NO team.

He wasnt playing 40 minutes against the 90s Knick team.

[Red Larrivee]

Back spasms aren't something that just goes away. Playing when it's still flaring is definitely ill-advised.

I'm sure the Bulls medical staff knows a lot more than we do.

[DuckIII]

The fact that this is a constant issue on the Bulls board is patently insane. You guys are just trying to find something to bitch about.

THANK YOU.

+1 to Duck and others too, but this is the lamest non-issue that I've ever seen people so up in arms over. Newsflash: you can't determine how "tired" a basketball player is by the minutes they play in a game. These players spend countless minutes practicing, working out, conditioning and other stuff to stay in game shape and to compete every night. They've been playing basketball their entire lives. They are built for this.

If the minutes were a problem, our players and management would've already said something. You don't coach with a stopwatch and there is no correlation between getting rest and winning a championship. Get over it and find something else to whine about.

Lets look at it another way as well, since P.C. was asking for examples. Lets generalize it a little bit. If what Thibs was doing were outside of the norm, then if I go back and look at the mpg of the elite players, on the most elite teams, that won the most games with the widest average point differential, then I'd see guys like Dirk, LeBron, Durant, Kobe, MJ, Pip, Bird, Magic, etc., averaging about 28 minutes per game on the season, right?

These guys all played on 60+ win, elite teams (Durant hasn't, but this year's Thunder is likely the equivalent of that) that probably only had meaningful competition among 5-7 other teams in the NBA throughout the season. So they should all have low minutes in these seasons.

[CousinOfDeath]

Back spasms aren't something that just goes away. Playing when it's still flaring is definitely ill-advised.

I'm sure the Bulls medical staff knows a lot more than we do.

It could be one of those situations where Rose doesn't tell the medical staff everything because he wants to play.

[Red Larrivee]

It could be one of those situations where Rose doesn't tell the medical staff everything because he wants to play.

You do realize how highly unlikely that is though right?

Lets look at it another way as well, since P.C. was asking for examples. Lets generalize it a little bit. If what Thibs was doing were outside of the norm, then if I go back and look at the mpg of the elite players, on the most elite teams, that won the most games with the widest average point differential, then I'd see guys like Dirk, LeBron, Durant, Kobe, MJ, Pip, Bird, Magic, etc., averaging about 28 minutes per game on the season, right?

These guys all played on 60+ win, elite teams (Durant hasn't, but this year's Thunder is likely the equivalent of that) that probably only had meaningful competition among 5-7 other teams in the NBA throughout the season. So they should all have low minutes in these seasons.

Basically. I've just never heard of an NBA team who virtually rested their starters the entire season, went to the postseason, dominated, won a championship and sipped Ciroc over their masterplan.

[DuckIII]

Back spasms aren't something that just goes away. Playing when it's still flaring is definitely ill-advised.

I'm sure the Bulls medical staff knows a lot more than we do.

It could be one of those situations where Rose doesn't tell the medical staff everything because he wants to play.

Then that's on Rose. You can't manage your team on the basic premise that your star player and captain is lying to you. That is what the medical staff is for - to hedge against players being overmotivated to play against their best interests. If the medical staff, in its objective medical opinion, clears him, and the player agrees, then the coach plays the player.

[northbrookrich]

OK - a couple of more.

D Howard played 39 mins and was in as the final buzzer sounded in a 21 point victory over the Bobcats.

K. Love played 41 minutes and was in until the 2:47 point in the 4th quarter of a 21 point Jan 8 victory over the Wizards (the Wizards only scored 72 points in the game).

Since I was looking at K Love, I noticed that L. Aldridge played 35 minutes and was in until the 2:59 mark in a 20 point victory over the hapless Cavs on that same Jan 8 date.

Durant is playing a ton of minutes, but his team is not really blowing any one out.

[transplant]

Seems that the majority of posters are for getting the Bulls' key players rest whenever possible, even if it risks losing some games. Missing out on the #1 seed is OK if it is the result of this added rest.

I therefore assume that this majority is adamantly opposed to Rose and Deng (if selected) playing in the All Star game and that the Bulls' FO should forbid their participation. At least the regular season games have some potential meaning for the team in its quest for a championship. The All Star game has absolutely none.

[DuckIII]

And one other thing: I've seen countless players play with back spasms in the NBA over the years, even getting treatment on the sidelines during the games in an attempt to stay loose. And Rose's issue hasn't even been calling for that type of in-game management.

This is common, not uncommon.

I know we all want to protect our little unicorn, but come on guys. I apologize if my sincere agreement with coldfish's comments or my frustration with the popularity of this issue comes off as insulting. But I simply think a little perspective is in order. I'm actually trying to convince you that you don't need to be so stressed over this. Don't worry, be happy.

[DuckIII]

Seems that the majority of posters are for getting the Bulls' key players rest whenever possible, even if it risks losing some games. Missing out on the #1 seed is OK if it is the result of this added rest.

I therefore assume that this majority is adamantly opposed to Rose and Deng (if selected) playing in the All Star game and that the Bulls' FO should forbid their participation. At least the regular season games have some potential meaning for the team in its quest for a championship. The All Star game has absolutely none.

Perhaps ironically, I actually support that even though I'm not stressed over the minutes in actual games. If I were God of all things Bulls, no Bulls player would ever play in any exhibition or international game. But that's another story altogether.

[northbrookrich]

Seems that the majority of posters are for getting the Bulls' key players rest whenever possible, even if it risks losing some games. Missing out on the #1 seed is OK if it is the result of this added rest.

I therefore assume that this majority is adamantly opposed to Rose and Deng (if selected) playing in the All Star game and that the Bulls' FO should forbid their participation. At least the regular season games have some potential meaning for the team in its quest for a championship. The All Star game has absolutely none.

They should also force them to go home after every game and sleep 15-18 hours until coming to practice or going to the next game. Maybe they can build this into their next contracts. Do not allow any activity that might utilize energy during the NBA season. Heck, make them hibernate during the offseason so they are full of GAS once the season begins.

[League Circles]

Thibs is right. I've never ever understood the notion that there is some functional relationship, let alone a linear function relationship, between minutes played and a guys health. My favorite one is people looking at career minutes played and trying to predict decline based on it. Just hysterical. Yes you're taxing Rose's toe and back and whatever by playing him now, but the only way to get him 100%, whatever that means, would be to sit him for about 6 weeks. Guys play injured. The big boys dont' talk about it much and dont' miss many games. Guys like MJ and Kobe have played ridiculous numbers of games injured.

The kicker is that resting Rose for 6 weeks, which is absurd and out of the question, doesn't really affect the chances for him to be healthy in the playoffs anyway, because when he comes back some other minor injury will likely plague him.

The best thing would be to rest him all season, that way he'd be 100% ready for sure - for the first quarter of the first game. Then it would be something else.

It's good to build habits. The great players quickly learn that they will be playing their careers through a bunch of minor injuries, or their teams won't be that great. The great players choose to dive in head first into that challenge, whereas the bitch ass or unhappy players find reasons to sit.