Tribune: Thibodeau stresses players should play if .....

[P.C.]

Well, nycrich did it. But he didn't need to. Its a non-issue with Thibs doing it. So if I saw someone else doing it, it would likewise be a non-issue to me, and I wouldn't take special note of it.

None of the players mentioned were coming off a serious injury. My question remains open. Find me an example.

[northbrookrich]

Well, nycrich did it. But he didn't need to. Its a non-issue with Thibs doing it. So if I saw someone else doing it, it would likewise be a non-issue to me, and I wouldn't take special note of it.

None of the players mentioned were coming off a serious injury. My question remains open. Find me an example.

Wade played 37 minutes the first game back from his most recent injury.

[P.C.]

Well, nycrich did it. But he didn't need to. Its a non-issue with Thibs doing it. So if I saw someone else doing it, it would likewise be a non-issue to me, and I wouldn't take special note of it.

None of the players mentioned were coming off a serious injury. My question remains open. Find me an example.

Wade played 37 minutes the first game back from his most recent injury.

You're talking about Jan 10th right, which actually wasn't his last injury. It was a 5 point game.

What I'm looking for is a player who is coming off an injury and playing big minutes in a blow out.

[transplant]

Seems that the majority of posters are for getting the Bulls' key players rest whenever possible, even if it risks losing some games. Missing out on the #1 seed is OK if it is the result of this added rest.

I therefore assume that this majority is adamantly opposed to Rose and Deng (if selected) playing in the All Star game and that the Bulls' FO should forbid their participation. At least the regular season games have some potential meaning for the team in its quest for a championship. The All Star game has absolutely none.

Perhaps ironically, I actually support that even though I'm not stressed over the minutes in actual games. If I were God of all things Bulls, no Bulls player would ever play in any exhibition or international game. But that's another story altogether.

Agree. Just trying to do a logic check.

[DuckIII]

Well, nycrich did it. But he didn't need to. Its a non-issue with Thibs doing it. So if I saw someone else doing it, it would likewise be a non-issue to me, and I wouldn't take special note of it.

None of the players mentioned were coming off a serious injury. My question remains open. Find me an example.

This is a ridiculous side discussion. Its a non-issue whether I can or can't, and I already explained why.

You seem to think it never happens. So why don't you go post me every game log from every player who ever came back from an injury, and establish that in every instance said player never played deep into the 4th quarter in a comfortable victory.

I don't actually expect you to attempt to do it, but it illustrates the silliness of the exercise either way.

[northbrookrich]

You're talking about Jan 10th right, which actually wasn't his last injury. It was a 5 point game.

What I'm looking for is a player who is coming off an injury and playing big minutes in a blow out.

First off, your initial post asked for ANY time star players were played tons of minutes in blow outs. There were several of those scenarios.

Second, this is simply a very narrow fact pattern. Can you point to examples where guys came back from injuries and they were pulled in close games because their minutes were being limited to avoid further injury? Wade playing big minutes when he comes back from an injury shows that often times teams are not limiting minutes once guys are cleared to play. No reason to treat them differently.

Oh, and, Thibs did limit Rose's minutes yesterday so if it is needed, he will limit the minutes. It is not a specific philosophy that Thibs is employing.

[P.C.]

I'll stop picking on Thibs when anyone here can point out another example of player posting 41 minutes and closing a twenty-point blowout, at the start of a long road trip, when that player is coming off a potentially season-ending injury.

Actually, this was the original inquiry. I made it broader to encompass (a) players coming off injury who (b) play large amounts of unnecessary minutes (in a blowout).

That's not a very narrow set of circumstances, to be honest.

Your contrafactual doesn't work. My point is that Deng played way more minutes than was necessary in a game coming off an injury. You're asking me to find an example of a player being benched when they were needed to compete. I freely admit there are reasons that you would play a player coming off an injury in a close game.

Regardless, how about Phil Jackson limitation of Andrew Bynum's minutes last season:

"I watch Andrew's minutes a lot and I'm quite aware that I like him in the low 30s," said Jackson. "Twenty-eight minutes is probably ideal for him. That's going to be maybe a help to help anything that could happen accidentally but you can't tell when an accident can happen out there, when someone can get hurt. But, limiting the time can take the risk out of it a little bit."

On 2/3/11, after being out for a game, Bynum played 29 minutes in an 88-89 loss to the Spurs.

[Ajosu]

Somehow there's this notion of guys sitting out games. Pretty soon we'll be at the point where a guy sits out the whole season and just plays in the playoffs — if he can get there. I don't get that.

Come on, that's funny. It's like he was speaking directly to Realgm when he said that.

Injuries are a bitch this season, for everyone in the league. I just don't think there's a whole lot that can be done about it, for a team that has plans of winning a championship. Coldfish has made this point probably 1,000 times, but the race for seeding can often come down to one game. It doesn't matter that New Orleans is an awful team. Hell, the Bucks have beaten the Heat twice this year. If you sleep on your opponent, you can lose on any given night. So, it's a slippery slope when you take some of the focus off of just winning games, going away from your system and rotation in order to get guys rest.

To be fair, I think being hot at the right time has as much to do with winning as seeding does. But getting hot takes a lot more than just having your guys rested. Building chemistry and working out the kinks are important. Really, that can take more than a full season to figure out. And if you sit out, the chemistry and being in game shape aren't like riding a bike. On that note, I think it has helped us having all of our key players back from last season. Less time learning the system and each other. More time making adjustments and adding new wrinkles.

I'm just crossing my fingers that we can be healthy for the playoffs. You need to get lucky in that regard to win.

[P.C.]

Seems that the majority of posters are for getting the Bulls' key players rest whenever possible, even if it risks losing some games. Missing out on the #1 seed is OK if it is the result of this added rest.

I therefore assume that this majority is adamantly opposed to Rose and Deng (if selected) playing in the All Star game and that the Bulls' FO should forbid their participation. At least the regular season games have some potential meaning for the team in its quest for a championship. The All Star game has absolutely none.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think the risk of exacerbating a prior injury is probably less in an all-star setting than a regular season game though, so it's not as big of a deal to me, as compared to playing in a blowout.

I view international ball a little bit differently because it seems to benefit a lot of players in terms of skill development. So international ball is more of a balancing act to me.

[DuckIII]

Regardless, how about Phil Jackson limiting Andrew Bynum's minutes last season:

"I watch Andrew's minutes a lot and I'm quite aware that I like him in the low 30s," said Jackson. "Twenty-eight minutes is probably ideal for him. That's going to be maybe a help to help anything that could happen accidentally but you can't tell when an accident can happen out there, when someone can get hurt. But, limiting the time can take the risk out of it a little bit."

On 2/3/11, after being out for a game, Bynum played 29 minutes in an 88-89 loss to the Spurs.

Not all injuries are the same. What was Bynum's injury? A pulled muscle? A sprain? A chronic knee issue?

Deng's injury is established. The ligament is torn. Nothing from the reports of the nature of the injury suggest that limited minutes has any impact on it at all.

Its all supposition. You don't know why Thibs did it, or the extent it was medically unsound, if at all. You just don't think it sounds right (which, frankly, is an understandable reaction). But the Bulls have actual doctors that actually are forming actual medical opinions about Luol Deng's actual wrist, with direct first hand knowledge.

[Air Poohdini]

Everyone better be healthy by the playoffs, no excuses!

[JohnnyTapwater]

Does the organization have one of those cryogenic machines...or whatever, Kidd is talking about in the wiretap..

With Thibs?...this seems to be essential for our run.

[northbrookrich]

Ray allen missed a game on 1/4 and came back the next game in a 13 point low scoring blow out and played 38 minutes. He missed a couple of games and came back and played 36 minutes on 1/29.

Rondo missed a bunch of games and then came back and played 34, then 35 then 33 minutes in the next 3 games including an 18 point blow-out. (this is right around his season avg. minutes per game).

Deron Williams missed a game and came back the next game to play 39 minutes in a 12 point blow-out.

Ty Lawson missed a couple of games with injuries and was back his first game back to his usual 34 minutes per game. He played 32 in a 21 point blow-out the 2nd game after coming back from injury.

Monta Ellis was out a game with an injury and played 42 minutes in an 11 point blowout the game he returned and 44 minutes in the following game.

David Lee missed a game and played 38 minutes in the following game (more than his season average).

Kevin Martin played 34 minutes in a 12 point blow-out the first game he got back from injury and then 36 minutes in the next game.

Lowry played 41, 44, 41, 49 minutes in the first four games he played after he was out injured including a 12 point and 14 point victory.

Kaman averages 26 minutes a game. He played 22 minutes his first game back and then 31 minutes against the Bulls last night in a major blow-out.

[BIGGIEsmalls 23]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[northbrookrich]

I've never seen a coach play a player coming back from injuries through the end of blowouts like Thibodeau has the season. We can even broaden that: I've never seen a coach play players, regardless of whether they are healthy or not, through the end of blowouts like Thibodeau has this season.

To be clear here, you first asked for a list of players regardless of health. You had never seen this scenario before - you must not be watching much basketball. So, I listed a bunch just so you could review the boxscores and understand that it happens ALL THE TIME.

Then, you revised and asked for injured players that come back and immediately play in blowouts. Well, this is truly a small sample size since the reason for blowouts is the star player. Surprise - not a lot of blow-outs when your star is in his first game back from injury! But, I did find a few.

But, in addition or instead, I provided a large list showing that coaches play guys their usual number of minutes immediately when they are cleared to play. The Bulls are not doing anything different than what the other coaches/teams in the league are doing this year or in past years.

Are there times when Thibs has held guys in too long in hindsight? Sure. I am not claiming that the guy is perfect. But, employing the strategy you are proposing is more likely to result in a loss or two that could be the difference between the #1 and the #3 or #4 seed - the way things are shaping up thus far.

[fleet]

this thread tells me there must be no point to ever resting your players when they get banged up. Ever. Even in blowouts and even against bad teams when you can beat them by 20 without said player. Doc Rivers agrees with everything Tom Thibodeau thinks as well.

[kyrv]

Firstly if the coaching staff, doctors anyone else saw that D Rose was hurting yesterday, or even before the game, there was no way he was playing.

Rose said after the game that his back was still a problem, but he played anyway, so quite obviously this is not true.

As a general rule, I don't mind playing guys when they want to play, but you have a guy with a nagging, likely compensatory, injury who is the key to your entire franchise going up against the two worst teams in the NBA. These are teams the Bulls would likely beat if the entire starting lineup sat out.

You rest Rose against those two opponents and let him be fully ready to take on Boston on Sunday when the game might actually mean something.

In terms of evidence about this approach overall, Rose said last year in the playoffs that he was fatigued and was out of gas by the end, so clearly it does make a difference when you give guys extra wear for a full season.

I have to say Rose didn't really look healthy (just my eye test).

I think it's become a bigger deal because several times a player has returned for one game then sat out.

People, also, PLEASE stop comparing Rose to Jordan. Rose is not too big and too strong. He's a small player by NBA players and he's too banged up.

Before the game Wennington, who like us is not a doctor, but is around the team and sees him up close, said he would absolutely rest Rose the next TWO games (well last night would have been one).

Unfortunately I don't think the OP is being alarmist. It is something to watch with Thibs, has been since his Boston days.

[WinCity]

Rose was moving like his back was stiff as a board. Cant believe anyone could defend playing him against freaking NO or CHA.

[northbrookrich]

I have to say Rose didn't really look healthy (just my eye test).

I think it's become a bigger deal because several times a player has returned for one game then sat out.

People, also, PLEASE stop comparing Rose to Jordan. Rose is not too big and too strong. He's a small player by NBA players and he's too banged up.

Before the game Wennington, who like us is not a doctor, but is around the team and sees him up close, said he would absolutely rest Rose the next TWO games (well last night would have been one).

Unfortunately I don't think the OP is being alarmist. It is something to watch with Thibs, has been since his Boston days.

I'm curious - whose fault is it? Is this on Gar Pax? Is it on Thibs? Is it on Rose? Is it on the doctors? Rose wanted to give it a go. The doctors cleared him. How does Rose react if Thibs doesn't trust him when he says he wants to give it a go? Do you remember the huge fight between Jordan and the Bulls organization over him coming back after his broken foot in his 2nd year in the league? I'm not sure his relationship with the team ever fully recovered.

A lot of people that are looking at the schedule and saying "look at who they are playing", they can beat NO or CHA without Rose. What do those arm-chair QBs say if Thibs sits Rose and the Bulls lose one of those games? I really don't think you can base your decision on the quality of the opponent. Maybe it should go the other way, play him in games that you have to win against the softies and sit him during tough games on the road against the top teams that they might lose anyway. That probably doesn't work either as fans might claim they would have won a game that they lost because they sit him.

It's easy for Wennington to say they should sit him. He won't suffer any consequences if they lose the game and end up missing out on the #1 seed by a game. More power to Bill if he can convince a team to actually put him in position to make these types of decisions. Good luck going against your star player if he is ever in such a spot.

By the way, have you seen any reports that state that Rose's recovery is going to take longer because he played 20 minutes against NO last night? Some posts are acting like this is the case. If it is merely that there was an unrealized risk that recovery might be longer, I think the argument is even more tenuous.

[iamduke]

I don't mind him playing through this,but he's been hurting his stats the last 2 games.

Really? I forgot that we play for stats around here and not for rings. Who cares if he hurt his stats....