Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...)

[Weems]

36% from 3 is good at his volume. But can I ask you why in the world are you comparing Nash and Monta as shooters?

Because of the narrative that Ellis should've gotten in over Nash. Also, If a player shoots 15-20% worse than another player from outside of the paint, that should disqualify them from being labelled good shooters. No?

[johnny878]

I think the coaches got it right this year. They took more complete players vs. stats guys. I'm hoping this will translate into a more competitive all-star game.

Josh is the definition of an all around player. Great help defender, good rebounder, incredible passer, solid man D, and solid offensively. He has his bad offensive games, but he also has is incredible ones to balance it out.

id say stats understate his impact

[DuckIII]

Switch out Smith for Deng on the Bulls and Miami is sleeping a lot less at night.

I can't speak for Miami, but as a Bulls fan I sure as hell know I would be sleeping less.

[coldgrip1]

Switch out Smith for Deng on the Bulls and Miami is sleeping a lot less at night.

I can't speak for Miami, but as a Bulls fan I sure as hell know I would be sleeping less.

Deng and Smith are pretty close. Both are good one on one defenders. Deng has the edge in scoring but Smith has the edge in help defense. I, as a non-Bulls and a non-Hawks fan, favor Smith slightly.

[fullcourt]

the argument shouldn't be about Deng and Smith

both the Hawks and Bulls are great teams and deserves two spots

the argument should be about Pierce and Smith

Deng and Smith both deserve it more than Paul Peirce

[Ettorefm]

Smith would disrupt the entire Bulls team on offense
.
Rose already has problems with another player scoring, specially far from the rim, and now you put Josh 'Brick' Smith on the team?
.
It's like putting Iguodala instead of RIp and saying the team would win everything. The bulls need shooters and Iguodala is a transition guy.

[BubbaTee]

Nash making the team is fine.

The 2 biggest undeservings on the West are Dirk (by his own admission) and Westbrook (what kind of PG has an A/T ratio under 1.5/1? Pathetic).

Frankly, I agree that Dirk should have been left out, if only to make a point to players not to slack off after a freaking championship run. Plus Millsap is pretty deserving anyways.

I can't come up with anyone that could replace Westbrook. Ellis but his team is so bad OKC deserves 2 All-Stars.

Westbrook isn't even the best guard on his own team.

If OKC must have 2 All-Stars (not sure when that became the rule, but whatever), Harden is more deserving than Westbrook.

[Ettorefm]

Harden is more deserving than Westbrook.

.
No. Just no. Absolutely no. And I don't like Russell
.
PER 36
.
Harden - 19 ppg / 4 assists / 4.7 rebounds / 1 steal / 47% FG / 21.7 PER
Westbrook - 23.3 ppg / 6 assists / 5 rebounds / 2 steals / 46.5% FG / 22.6 PER
.
Give me one reason why Harden is way better than Westbrook this season

[DuckIII]

Switch out Smith for Deng on the Bulls and Miami is sleeping a lot less at night.

I can't speak for Miami, but as a Bulls fan I sure as hell know I would be sleeping less.

Deng and Smith are pretty close. Both are good one on one defenders. Deng has the edge in scoring but Smith has the edge in help defense. I, as a non-Bulls and a non-Hawks fan, favor Smith slightly.

I don't expect non-Bulls fans to understand. But Coach Thibs entire defensive strategy hinges around Luol Deng's play. He is the linchpin.

Smith's defense is completely different than Deng's.

As someone said earlier, that trade makes both teams worse. They are dissimilar players.

[dice]

[monta's] TOV% is at career high and it's still lower than Nash's, Curry's, Lebron's, Lawson's etc

those are primarily point guards. compare apples to apples

monta was #9 in TO rate amongst majority minute SGs last season. and it's worse when you factor in his relatively low assist totals

Stop posting dude. We don't need people who make up fake stats on this board. You still haven't answered how you came up with Ellis' 37% shooting. Reply to my post above and explain yourself.

you said he was an automatic mid-range shooter. i highlighted it IN BOLD in my response.

from 16-23 feet over the last 4 years, monta ellis is shooting 37%. 37% is not automatic

Explain how league leading 6.3 assists per game at the SG spot is "relatively low".

his assist to turnover ratio is relatively low. i misspoke somewhat there. my apologies

Explain how a guy who led the whole league in minutes played last year regardless of position and ranked 9 in turnovers at his position is considered turnover prone.

ahem...he was #1 in the league at his position in turnovers. his turnover rate, which factors in how much he had the ball, was what was top 10 at his position. any way you cut it, he turns the ball over too much and doesn't score nearly effectively enough to make up for it

Stop embarrassing yourself.

stop insulting people when you have no idea what you're talking about

[coldgrip1]

You see...people actually DO watch the games. And what people have noticed is that in that Monta would be better suited as a 6th man. He actually had his best season as a 6th man.

Big stats + mediocre at best efficiency + repeated losing seasons = Other players more deserving.

Like I said, career .470 is very good for volume shooters. Kobe has never hit .470 in any single season.

Monta's efficiency goes down from carrying the offensive load and being forced to play league leading minutes.

I'm not arguing that Monta should or should not be the focus of a team or should he be a franchise player, I'm just pointing out that when Ellis had more help, he was an ultra efficient scorer. Can't argue with 21ppg on 53% shooting for the whole year.

[Ettorefm]

Career .470 is not good, it's ABSOLUTELY GREAT
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I've never seen volume shooters do this. Anything over 45% for a volume shooter is incredible
.
Kobe and Iverson are the DEFINITION of volume shooters. Iverson is a career 42% shooter and Kobe, 45%

[Rapcity_11]

Harden is more deserving than Westbrook.

.
No. Just no. Absolutely no. And I don't like Russell
.
PER 36
.
Harden - 19 ppg / 4 assists / 4.7 rebounds / 1 steal / 47% FG / 21.7 PER
Westbrook - 23.3 ppg / 6 assists / 5 rebounds / 2 steals / 46.5% FG / 22.6 PER
.
Give me one reason why Harden is way better than Westbrook this season

Don't be fooled by the box-score.

Ortg:
Harden is at 127
Westbrook is at 103

Westbrook isn't really helping his team with his sky-high usage. The difference in efficiency is massive.

[dice]

and while we're at it...

josh smith poor offensively, average rebounder, strong defensive presence...add it all up, you've got yourself a mediocre all-around player. no all-star for you!

Uh, what?

Deng averages 0.4 more ppg than Smith on less than 44% FG% to Smith's 47%.

i wasn't defending deng's selection. i was explaining josh smith not getting in. but let's deal with it...

as a frequent bulls watcher, i tended to be (relatively speaking) a deng defender in the past when many, including bulls fans, were dumping on him. now, due in part to his team's success, i feel he is being overrated a bit, particularly by bulls fans. that said, he's clearly better offensively than josh smith, he's clearly a better rebounder at his position than josh smith, and lu's a strong (though overrated) defender. throw in his team's success and deng over josh smith is pretty close to a no brainer

[BooRadley]

Westbrook would be just another chucker if he didn't play with Durant and if he didn't get superstar calls left and right. Nobody can really deny that.

[coldgrip1]

Harden is more deserving than Westbrook.

.
No. Just no. Absolutely no. And I don't like Russell
.
PER 36
.
Harden - 19 ppg / 4 assists / 4.7 rebounds / 1 steal / 47% FG / 21.7 PER
Westbrook - 23.3 ppg / 6 assists / 5 rebounds / 2 steals / 46.5% FG / 22.6 PER
.
Give me one reason why Harden is way better than Westbrook this season

Don't be fooled by the box-score.

Ortg:
Harden is at 127
Westbrook is at 103

Westbrook isn't really helping his team with his sky-high usage. The difference in efficiency is massive.

Funny everyone praises James the 2nd coming of god Harden as an ultra efficient scorer playing reduced 6th man minutes and having a career year, shooting at a blistering 47%.

Meanwhile, Ellis shoots a much higher volume and gets double and triple teamed nightly, does 47% for HIS CAREER, and people say he's an inefficient chucker.

Monta, if playing the same minutes as Harden, would drop 21ppg on 53% shooting. Oh wait, he already did. Not even gonna bring up the assists. One leads the league in assists at SG. His name is not Harden.

[ChicagoStrong]

and while we're at it...

josh smith poor offensively, average rebounder, strong defensive presence...add it all up, you've got yourself a mediocre all-around player. no all-star for you!

Uh, what?

Deng averages 0.4 more ppg than Smith on less than 44% FG% to Smith's 47%.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/josh_smith/

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/luol_deng/

Deng making it to the ASG is the equivalent of Mo Williams making it when Lebron was in CLE. Just riding the alpha's coattails.

Deng is more efficient than Smith

Luol: .509 TS%
Smith: .497 TS%

[kodo]

I find it unreal that apparently Josh Smith will never make an All Star game. This year:

Josh Smith:
Usage: 23.0
Per: 19.65

Deng:
Usage: 19.5
Per: 16.29

Iggy:
Usage: 18.4
Per: 18.83

There is simply no reason Smith should not make it in over these guys. Deng has missed at least a third of the season for crying out loud.

All-star selection isn't by PER obviously, but even if you use PER as evidence in this case, Josh Smith still doesn't make it.

Carlos Boozer 20.47 PER
Smith: 18.4 PER

Deng's missing part of the season may have sealed the deal for his ASG actually.

CHI Win% without Deng: 57%
CHI Win% with Deng: 86%

[Rapcity_11]

Christ, use TS% people. FG% is useless.

[dice]

Career .470 is not good, it's ABSOLUTELY GREAT
.
I've never seen volume shooters do this. Anything over 45% for a volume shooter is incredible
.
Kobe and Iverson are the DEFINITION of volume shooters. Iverson is a career 42% shooter and Kobe, 45%

first of all, this .470 number being thrown around is both slightly inflated and misleading in the context of this conversation. the career FG% is .467. and over the past 4 years as a full time starter he's .448

more importantly, monta's TS% over the past 4 years is a poor 52.3%

what's remarkable is how little monta has delivered on his early promise