The Lebron Thread

[NO-KG-AI]

LeBron is easily the most athletic player in the league. You guys are reaching so hard that it's comical, haha.

[CJ_18]

The more I watch LeBron play, the more I feel like it's a change in playing style rather than a "heavy decline of athleticism".

I couldn't disagree more. Nobody CHOOSES to move a lot slower than they are capable of moving. The only thing a top-level athlete gives up as he ages a little is the high-flying act. They don't go all-out for dunks anymore. That's it. They don't intentionally reduce their speed/explosiveness/fluidity. That's LeBron's issue. There are plenty of times over the last 2 seasons where he was required to play a more dynamic game in the half-court, and he had nothing to offer beyond jump shots. This is who he is. This is not some choice he's made.

Look at guys like Karl Malone, Michael Jordan, Charles Barkley, and Kobe Bryant.

All athletic freaks at 26/27. Well, maybe not Kobe, but he had some injuries and was still light years ahead of current-LeBron as a slasher. They were all close to their peak ability at LeBron's age. MJ was 27 in '90 and that was arguably his most athletic season. He was a blur on the ground. LeBron moves in slow motion.

but they all eventually molded their games to not be reliant on elite athleticism.

None of them did this at LeBron's age. THAT'S THE POINT. Why has a 26/27 year old lost 20-25% of his physical ability? That's the question.

The result so far? He's currently averaging 29ppg on 55% FG.

Meaningless. Pads his efficiency in the open court and is at his worst when the stakes are highest. A complete reversal of what he was in Cleveland.

What I'm saying is that he's continuously making adjustments to his game, and becoming more and more effective in the half court. Not more effective than his Cleveland days, but he's getting there.

This does not make any sense. You're admitting to his regression in the half-court since his Cleveland days, so how is he getting better?

Basically, he's sacrificing a little bit now (his overall less effective offense in the half court) to extend his prime drastically.

I have never heard of a 26/27 year old who decided to "take it easy" on the ground to prolong his career. This argument is complete BS. Nobody moves slower than they're capable of moving. LORD knows Miami could have used a more dynamic LeBron these last 2 seasons, but have gotten nothing beyond a jump-shooting plodder. This is NOT by choice. Why would LeBron intentionally decide to hurt his team by becoming a worse player?

In short, I think it's just ridiculous to say that LeBron is suffering from a "heavy decline" of athleticism.

No, it's the other way around. It's utterly ridiculous to pretend a player hasn't drastically declined physically when for 2 straight seasons he's shown nothing resembling a slashing game. That's what LeBron's entire freaking game was built on even as recently as the first half of the 08-09 season. 04-09 'Bron with his current body wouldn't even be an All Star.

Of course, he's not as athletic as his 22-year-old version

He's not even as athletic as his 25 year old version, the guy we saw 2 seasons ago. Nobody expects LeBron to be what he was in his early 20's, but nobody expects him to display the athleticism of someone well into their 30's either.

but he's still an athletic freak and arguably more athletic than the vast majority of the league.

Maybe in the open court, but a perimeter player who struggles to drive against a set defense and displays the mobility of a PF couldn't be further from a 'freak'.

Once in a while, he still wows us with an amazing dunk/play.

Which is utterly meaningless. Doesn't remotely help him be more effective in the half-court - which is where the game's played.

Give it up. Youre wrong.

[IG2]

Another horrible night from LeBron so far. His jumper has completely eluded him over the last 5 games, an unheard of territory for him the last few years. He can't do anything if the Heat don't get on the break. It's painful to watch him. Make it back-to-back-to-back season worst games now.

[7-Day Dray]

Another horrible night from LeBron so far. His jumper has completely eluded him over the last 5 games, an unheard of territory for him the last few years. He can't do anything if the Heat don't get on the break. It's painful to watch him. Make it back-to-back-to-back season worst games now.

Yeah, this is the most in-depth I watched him all year (Wizards fan), and he was playing terrible in the first half. He didn't even play well throughout the whole game. As you said, most of his points were off fast breaks. The only thing he's still great at in the half-court is passing. Don't let those few alley-oop dunks fool you. His quickness has vanished. He couldn't create anything for himself in the half-court. He's much easier to guard now than he was in Cleveland.

[SideshowBob]

Was at the game today, same story. With his jumper off, he's really struggling to create for himself.

Crowd went nuts every time he got a dunk on the fast break though; no one's really catching on at all.

As for this thread, I'll continue to post my thoughts as long as it stays open. I don't feel like I'm violating any terms of the board nor offending anyone. If it gets locked, however, I'm not going to make any effort to start another one.

[BBallFreak]

Yeah I'm sure he was really concerned with killing the Wizards

[Tim_Hardawayy]

I don't think his head was at rim level on either of these, you guys may be onto something!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBaqCHSusH4&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Seriously though... I'm a Wade fan, I watch him and critique him, sometimes to harshly, because I'm such a fan. That's what's going on in this thread. Some people are taking it as hate, and its not, but at the same time, you guys (LeBron fans) are really going overboard with the analysis.

[IG2]

you guys (LeBron fans) are really going overboard with the analysis.

Be specific. What do you think we are going overboard about? All we have said in this thread is that he's incapable of creating in the half-court beyond shooting jump shots and the occasional post-up, a deficiency that often renders him ineffective during large portions of the game, particularly in the clutch. That's not hyperbole. That's fact. If you disagree, then you have all the tools in the world(Youtube) to prove us wrong.

[IG2]

Yeah, this is the most in-depth I watched him all year (Wizards fan), and he was playing terrible in the first half. He didn't even play well throughout the whole game. As you said, most of his points were off fast breaks. The only thing he's still great at in the half-court is passing. Don't let those few alley-oop dunks fool you. His quickness has vanished. He couldn't create anything for himself in the half-court. He's much easier to guard now than he was in Cleveland.

You were one of the first on board with me about LeBron. And you aren't even a LeBron fan(being a Wizards guy, probably a hater ). You are clear proof of LeBron's massive decline not just being "in our heads" or something we are exaggerating.

[CJ_18]

Be specific. What do you think we are going overboard about?

......

You were one of the first on board with me about LeBron. You are clear proof of LeBron's massive decline not just being "in our heads" or something we are exaggerating.

You just said that a poster's opinion on an internet forum after watching a game against the 1-26 wizards is clear proof that LeBron James is massively declining.

[LakerLegend]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaXJvBsB2og[/youtube]

[TheOUTLAW]

How is that cherry picking? LeBron started running on the loose ball. Fact is, the Heat are just faster at turning form defense to offense than most teams.

I can't believe this thread still exists. LeBron is not significantly less athletic, he just doesn't use it quite as much.

[orangeparka]

So just to be clear, what you're trying to say is that LeBron has become less effective creating for himself in the half court (I say from change in playing style, you say "athletic decline", but that point is moot), but has become a lot more effective everywhere else and overall?

If so, then I agree.

[orangeparka]

you guys (LeBron fans) are really going overboard with the analysis.

Be specific. What do you think we are going overboard about? All we have said in this thread is that he's incapable of creating in the half-court beyond shooting jump shots and the occasional post-up, a deficiency that often renders him ineffective during large portions of the game, particularly in the clutch. That's not hyperbole. That's fact. If you disagree, then you have all the tools in the world(Youtube) to prove us wrong.

Okay, now I know you're just hating smh. So LeBron can't do anything in the half court other than shoot jumpers and post-up?

I've watched pretty much every Heat game this season, and driving is still a big part of LeBron's game.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGFQ_kVEB8g&feature=related[/youtube]

0:30, 0:40

I just used the first video that I could find and only watched like a minute of it, so those two are probably not the best examples, but look at how EFFORTLESSLY he takes it to the rim in those two drives.

It doesn't look like he's using any energy at all, which supports my playing style change idea (takes a much easier stop-and-pop midrange jumper or doesn't use too much effort/legs to drive to the rim over a big drive and athletic finish).


But everyone once in a while, he'll do something like...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO6qv8y-Rso[/youtube]

1:04

which reminds me that he's still one of the most athletic guys in the league.

And that's not even close to the most athletic half-court play I've seen from him.

[toodles23]

Thoughts on Lebron's play lately?

His 16-23 foot jumper has been off, but I think it might be a bit of a fluke. He's shooting just under 39% from 16-23 this year, his worst since 2008, but he's also shooting easily his career high on threes (39.3%, higher than his 16-23 percentage) and from 10-15 (48%). I'd guess those numbers will even out some by the end of the season.

[SideshowBob]

Jumper's been off all season at this point. He was shooting nicely back in December but has been at around 39% in January and now February. Not too worried though, he struggled with it last season early on as well. I'd expect him to sort it out and go on his usual post all star break tear.

He had one drive and finish in traffic tonight that I was pleased to see; basically what was his bread-and-butter back in Cleveland, but that's the first time I saw him convert this season.

He's really getting comfortable playing back-to-basket on that left baseline, I think he should look to set up that turnaround J more often.

On another note, his minutes have been WAY down the last two weeks or so, and it seems he's playing much more controlled and thought-out, and it's allowing him to be ridiculously efficient. He's finally cut down on the turnovers (1.8 a game in the last 6 games), picking his spots better (though I want to see that jumper return), passing out of the double team better, basically doing everything better. His overall averages may be down, but I think the uptick in per-minute production outweighs it. Granted, however, he's played some weak teams in this span, so maybe that's just skewing my perception.

[IG2]

Nothing new to say, really. I see the same player as last season, except with a worse jumper, but since he picks up a lot of easy baskets and has reduced his 3-point attempts, it doesn't show up in his FG%. His confidence is low right now, but he NEEDS to continue taking that mid-range jumper, even if he's missing. How else is he going to come out of that slump? The jumper IS his biggest weapon in the half-court, and when he stops looking for those, it becomes 2011 Finals all over again. He stops being a threat and completely bogs down the offense when Wade's sitting.

On the positive side, his passing has been beautiful lately. The turnovers are down as he's stopped being overly cute with his passes, and in general has done a terrific job setting guys up. He's also having his best rebounding season. Not just because the numbers indicate it, but watching him play, he's really fighting for those boards.

Overall theme hasn't changed though. While numbers indicate this could be his best season, 11-12 would barely make my list of LeBron's 5 best seasons. 10>09>08>06>12. The difference in playmaking ability is simply too jarring. He's just too limited off-the-dribble, thus still goes through long stretches where he's merely a spectator on the court.

[SideshowBob]

Nothing new to say, really. I see the same player as last season, except with a worse jumper, but since he picks up a lot of easy baskets and has reduced his 3-point attempts, it doesn't show up in his FG%. His confidence is low right now, but he NEEDS to continue taking that mid-range jumper, even if he's missing. How else is he going to come out of that slump? The jumper IS his biggest weapon in the half-court, and when he stops looking for those, it becomes 2011 Finals all over again. He becomes a non-factor scoring wise and completely bogs down the offense when Wade's sitting.

On the positive side, his passing has been beautiful lately. The turnovers are down as he's stopped being overly cute with his passes, and in general has done a terrific job setting guys up. He's also having his best rebounding season. Not just because the numbers indicate it, but watching him play, he's really fighting for those boards.

Overall theme hasn't changed though. While numbers indicate this could be his best season, 11-12 would barely make my list of LeBron's 5 best seasons. 10>09>08>06>12. The difference in playmaking ability is simply too jarring. He's just too limited off-the-dribble, thus still goes through long stretches where he's merely a spectator on the court.

And before we start arguing semantics, by playmaking ability you're referring to his ability to create shots for himself in the halfcourt

[IG2]

And before we start arguing semantics, by playmaking ability you're referring to his ability to create shots for himself in the halfcourt

Mainly, yes, but superior ability to create can also lead to opportunities for teammates that otherwise wouldn't be there. In short, playmaking ability is simply the ability to make plays, and considering majority of the game is played in the half-court, it's easy to see why LeBron's weakness becomes so pronounced.

[CJ_18]

Do you guys credit his athletic decline for him becoming the best defensive player in the league when he wants to be?