Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...)

[Sothron]

Anyone that considers PER, win shares and value added as "garbage" just excluded themselves from any serious conversation relating to the NBA.

[_BBIB_]

Coaches hate Josh Smith it's as simple as that

He'd have to play at a superstar level just to be an all-star reserve

That's just the way it is

Just hope he can continue to play with chip on his back and keep the smart shot selection

[SAUCERY_SWEET]

[quote="Dr Mufasa"]Smith yes, Monta no[/quo

[dice]

still can't believe a 13 ppg made the all star team smh..

quality scoring is the biggest factor, but it ain't the only factor

jason kidd averaged 15 the two years he was 1st team all nba. took a crap team to the finals. that ain't all-star, that's SUPERSTAR. 15 points a game

why didn't denver get an all star then???

it's an individual honor

[dice]

Anyone that considers PER, win shares and value added as "garbage" just excluded themselves from any serious conversation relating to the NBA.

again no response of substance to a detailed and thoughtful post

plenty of non-sheeple around here recognize that the stats you mention are very basic, flawed and unsophisticated. stick around the board a while and you'll come across 'em

when a poor offensive player and average rebounder like josh smith ends up with a good PER, why not question how valuable that stat really is? seriously

[SAUCERY_SWEET]

Smith yes, Monta no

Uh Huh!!

[Ruhiel]

It is funny how dice makes nothing but dumb comments, but no one is replying to his last post with all those stats.

His numbers are flawed because none of them are actual measurements of this season let alone metrics that people consider. My previous posts that list PER, win shares, value added, rebound rate, etc. all show the Smith is the superior player in almost every category worth mentioning. His idiotic comments are exactly the kind of troll posts that deserve no mention.

PER is a garbage statistic. win shares is a garbage statistic. value added is a garbage statistic. it's statistics like those that made the knicks think it would be a good idea to trade so many pieces for carmelo anthony. a trade the strong majority of people thought would make the knicks a contender. i was not one of them. i'm guessing you were

rebound rate is reasonable, but you're failing to take position into account. you can't praise a PF for outrebounding a SF

last year's rebound rate ranking of PFs:

http://www.hoopdata.com/advancedstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=PF&yr=2011&gp=40&mins=25

see josh smith there? right smack dab in the middle of the pack. and his rate this season is virtually the same (15.4 vs 15.0)

deng and iggy are better rebounders at their positions. it's fact. it's not disputable. josh smith is an average rebounder. ignoring that gives you no credibility

the defensive measurements i gave people actually DO use. the educated basketball people, including NBA FO people. if take the time to process what i've given you, maybe you'll take a step toward joining that club

and i'm sure you've heard of TS%? josh smith has a BAD TS%. BAD. you CANNOT be a good offensive player without at least an average TS%

so...josh smith is poor offensively, average on the boards, and a good defender. that's not an all-star combination. it just isn't, and hoping and dreaming and watching an endless loop of josh smith dunks and blocked shots won't make it so

finally, i have not stooped to insulting people in this thread. DESPITE their total lack of anything resembling a logical thought process. what YOU and others are doing is trolling. and it makes you look foolish. almost like a knick fan

i went too far with that last sentence. i apologize

Except Josh Smith is a SF. Who was he guarding tonight? The only reason he primarily guards SFs is because Marvin Williams is too soft too normally defend the post against most PFs.

Yet he was signed to an untradeable contract and we were never able to sign a true stretch PF.

His team signed a forward that cant rebound and so that handicaps him playing in transition, defending bigger players and so he has to be posting up bigger players or taking them off dribble not his strengths.

U penalize him for team construciton vs overall ability.

Where does Josh Smith rank at rebounding as a Small Forward? His natural position?

[_BBIB_]

Anyone that considers PER, win shares and value added as "garbage" just excluded themselves from any serious conversation relating to the NBA.

again no response of substance to a detailed and thoughtful post

plenty of non-sheeple around here recognize that the stats you mention are very basic, flawed and unsophisticated. stick around the board a while and you'll come across 'em

when a poor offensive player and average rebounder like josh smith ends up with a good PER, why not question how valuable that stat really is? seriously

Because PER and Win Shares are probably the most accurate stats that you could look at in ANY sport for showing impact that a player has on the game

THere is a reason why players who are elite in that category on the all-time list are all-time greats

You are the one who is not objective. Josh Smith is arguably the most impactful player on the Hawks

And there is no way Paul Pierce should have made the all-star game over him

[SAUCERY_SWEET]

I agree with the sentiment about Josh "snubbed again" Smith, didn't Pierce miss something like 10 games already and Deng also but they go ahead of a guy who has played every game like a warrior since Horford went down and kept the Hawks at least in the discussion of the top East teams. And don't even start me with Iguodala.

[dice]

The only reason he primarily guards SFs is because Marvin Williams is too soft too normally defend the post against most PFs.

U penalize him for team construciton vs overall ability.

i'm gonna assume you meant 'PFs' after the word 'guards' in that first sentence. anyway...

size-wise josh smith is a tweener. no question about that. but being an elite shot blocker his natural defensive position is PF. why would any coach have him defending wings on a consistent basis?

the guy's an undersized power forward

[Wone]

Coaches hate Josh Smith it's as simple as that

He'd have to play at a superstar level just to be an all-star reserve

That's just the way it is

Just hope he can continue to play with chip on his back and keep the smart shot selection

i dont get what coaches have against josh smith?

[_BBIB_]

Coaches hate Josh Smith it's as simple as that

He'd have to play at a superstar level just to be an all-star reserve

That's just the way it is

Just hope he can continue to play with chip on his back and keep the smart shot selection

i dont get what coaches have against josh smith?

He still hasn't shaken the reputation he had coming in the league has a knucklehead. Although it was a fair criticism of Josh, he's mature, his shot selection isn't nearly as bad as it used to be, and he deserves to make an ASG

[Ruhiel]

The only reason he primarily guards SFs is because Marvin Williams is too soft too normally defend the post against most PFs.

U penalize him for team construciton vs overall ability.

i'm gonna assume you meant 'PFs' after the word 'guards' in that first sentence. anyway...

size-wise josh smith is a tweener. no question about that. but being an elite shot blocker his natural defensive position is PF. why would any coach have him defending wings on a consistent basis?

the guy's an undersized power forward

Not sure if serious... so if he plays wings, he can't recover and help down and block shots? Have you seen the guy jump?

He'd probably get more blocks.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUlU70pjq-A[/youtube]

Have you even watched him play? Help defense is his best attribute. Not man to man.

[dice]

THere is a reason why players who are elite in that category on the all-time list are all-time greats

you can say the same thing about PPG

someone with a high PER is MOST LIKELY a very good player. but it's not always the case. josh smith is a perfect example of someone overrated by PER. carmelo anthony is another. monta ellis is a third...

PER rewards chucking and doesn't take defense sufficiently into account. two pret-ty big flaws

do you realize how much john hollinger gets bashed around here?

Josh Smith is arguably the most impactful player on the Hawks

i'll agree with that! doesn't mean he's a good player

And there is no way Paul Pierce should have made the all-star game over him

are you talking about the paul pierce whose PER is higher than josh smith's?

[dice]

Have you even watched him play? Help defense is his best attribute. Not man to man.

something i pointed out a couple of pages back

how many teams do you think josh smith would play small forward on? i'm thinking not many

[panthermark]

This thread still going on?

He didn't make it....deal with it. I had him in over Johnson....tough cookies for everyone.

If there is an injury, I'm assuming he will be the replacement....

[Ruhiel]

Have you even watched him play? Help defense is his best attribute. Not man to man.

something i pointed out a couple of pages back

how many teams do you think josh smith would play small forward on? i'm thinking not many

Doesn't matter. He's not a conventional SF. But All you got to do is luck into a Ryan Anderson and then you have yourself a wing version of Dwight Howard. If others rebound he can Get out in transition and is a homing missile on the rim. Nasty finisher in the pick and roll. A couple nice moves Posting up smalls and he has stamina this year to do it over and over again.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg_VMHfuS1o[/youtube]
Not his fault the closest thing he has to a STRETCH PF is Marvin Williams.

And again I'll ask you, where does his rebound rate rank him matched up against those in his natural SF position?

[dice]

Have you even watched him play? Help defense is his best attribute. Not man to man.

something i pointed out a couple of pages back

how many teams do you think josh smith would play small forward on? i'm thinking not many

Doesn't matter. He's not a conventional SF. But All you got to do is luck into a Ryan Anderson and then you have yourself a wing version of Dwight Howard.

i'll take your word for it

[SAUCERY_SWEET]

Oh yeah in other news tonight........never mind did I mention Josh Smith got snubbed?? Oh OK!

[dice]

in other news, luol deng said before tonite's game that after getting his all-star nod he's gonna take it easy the rest of the year