Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...)

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Re: Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...) 

Post#241 » by betta1 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:02 am

Rapcity_11 wrote:
betta1 wrote:
Actually, the real explanation is fringe Bulls fans trying to justify Deng getting the nod, while the rest of the basketball world knows he's this year's version of Mo Williams circa 2009.

2012
Deng : Rose

2009
Mo Williams : Lebron


1. Not a Bulls fan. Not even close.
2. Smith vs. Deng is very close in my eyes.
3. That isn't an excuse for the crap you've been posting.


Call it crap all you want. I will maintain that TS% is crap, to follow the theme here, in as far as evaluating All Star worthiness is concerned.
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Re: Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...) 

Post#242 » by og15 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:12 am

Why do some people post as if the All Star game is just about whether a guy deserves it or not in a vacuum. No, it's not in a vacuum, there are other players. So when you say that Monta Ellis for example deserves it, well you have to make a case for him over someone else that made it.

If someone else is producing better, or equally as well on a team that is as good or better, one is going to need a better argument than "everyone hates my team". I mean did someone really say that David Lee and Ellis should both be All-Stars? Maybe if they were putting up legendary numbers then two guys on a 9-14 team could make it, but outside of that, let's not get crazy. (and if they were both putting up legendary numbers, the team likely wouldn't be 9-14)
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Re: Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...) 

Post#243 » by Blame Rasho » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:22 am

og15 wrote:Why do some people post as if the All Star game is just about whether a guy deserves it or not in a vacuum. No, it's not in a vacuum, there are other players. So when you say that Monta Ellis for example deserves it, well you have to make a case for him over someone else that made it.

If someone else is producing better, or equally as well on a team that is as good or better, one is going to need a better argument than "everyone hates my team". I mean did someone really say that David Lee and Ellis should both be All-Stars? Maybe if they were putting up legendary numbers then two guys on a 9-14 team could make it, but outside of that, let's not get crazy. (and if they were both putting up legendary numbers, the team likely wouldn't be 9-14)



You get post of the week honors in my book my friend...
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Re: Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...) 

Post#244 » by coldgrip1 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:23 am

Not saying Ellis deserves to get in this year. I don't think he comes close. I think he was robbed the last 2 years. This year, no complaint. He's been hobbling off one knee for a while and has been wildly inconsistent.

Having said that, due to one Warriors coach after another doing whatever it took to hang on to his job, Ellis' minutes the last 4 years have been brutal and stupid. There's a reason nobody else in the league does it. Dude is gassed at end of games. His legs are gone. This is where stats gurus need to take into consideration the dramatic dropoff in linearity. Efficiency should drop off lightly playing 30 minutes versus 20 minutes. Efficiency should drop sharply playing 40 minutes versus playing 30 minutes. Anything over 40 minutes is just free fall from an efficiency (and even decision-making) standpoint. With reduced minutes, Ellis has proven over and over an efficient explosive multi-dimensional scorer in this league. No buts, no ifs, no stats that will change what my eyes see.

Again, not saying Nash didn't deserve it. Nash is the man. Just pointing out that the disrespect for Ellis' game is ridiculous. When pre-contract Biedrins had a decent year, everybody and their mama were on Ellis' jock. Empty stats my azz!!! Ellis doesn't play garbage minutes. He's the focus of the opposing defense every minute he's on the floor. Too many RGM'ers outsmart themselves pretending to be stat gurus when they should be watching games. Don't pretend like you do because I know most of you who diss Ellis rarely ever watch him play. Get the fock outta here and stop pretending!
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Re: Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...) 

Post#245 » by Rapcity_11 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:31 am

betta1 wrote:
Call it crap all you want. I will maintain that TS% is crap, to follow the theme here, in as far as evaluating All Star worthiness is concerned.


Why exactly is TS% crap?
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Re: Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...) 

Post#246 » by ChicagoStrong » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:37 am

Rapcity_11 wrote:
betta1 wrote:
Call it crap all you want. I will maintain that TS% is crap, to follow the theme here, in as far as evaluating All Star worthiness is concerned.


Why exactly is TS% crap?


Because it doesn't fit his argument.
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Re: Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...) 

Post#247 » by dice » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:51 am

if you look at the PERs of nugget players they are very close to the PERs of bulls players. and denver is barely over .500. yet the celtics (another team barely above .500) lag well behind in player PER. what does that tell you?
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Re: Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...) 

Post#248 » by og15 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:53 am

dice wrote:if you look at the PERs of nugget players they are very close to the PERs of bulls players. and denver is barely over .500. yet the celtics (another team barely above .500) lag well behind in player PER. what does that tell you?

Using PER as a be all end all stat is pretty stupid, especially in comparing whole teams where things like team defense etc come into play even more.
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Re: Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...) 

Post#249 » by betta1 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:58 am

Rapcity_11 wrote:
betta1 wrote:
Call it crap all you want. I will maintain that TS% is crap, to follow the theme here, in as far as evaluating All Star worthiness is concerned.


Why exactly is TS% crap?


I never said that. Re-read what I wrote.
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Re: Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...) 

Post#250 » by CB-Blazer » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:10 am

They're all Centers. Smith is a PF. What's the point in comparing him to Centers in this debate? Compare them to other Centers if it's relevant. Or better yet, why not compare Smith to other PFs who made it and see how he stacks up.


And he has been being compared to SF's this whole thread? Isn't it about who is more deserving, not about what position one plays?

The Hawk fan laid out criteria, why Smith deserves it over Deng (they aren't the same position either) and I countered with, well there are several players that deserved it more than Smith did, so there is no point in crying.

Don't get me wrong, Smith has the talent to be an All-Star but there deffinately isn't a big enough difference betweent Pierce, Deng, Iggy etc to call it a "Snub". I'd say at this point in time they have all been just about as deserving as the other and someone had to be left out, and the coaches made their choice as to whom.

To me, a snub is someone who OBIVOUSLY was left out for a lesser player and this isn't the case. Could have gone a different way and then we would have this same thread as to why Deng, Pierce, Iggy etc were "snubbed". That just further proves that it was a tough call to make and it really wasn't a "snub".
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Re: Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...) 

Post#251 » by Rapcity_11 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:43 am

betta1 wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
betta1 wrote:
Call it crap all you want. I will maintain that TS% is crap, to follow the theme here, in as far as evaluating All Star worthiness is concerned.


Why exactly is TS% crap?


I never said that. Re-read what I wrote.


Why is it crap, in as far as evaluating all-star worthiness?
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Re: Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...) 

Post#252 » by betta1 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:00 am

Rapcity_11 wrote:Why is it crap, in as far as evaluating all-star worthiness?


I thought I explained that in my previous so many posts. Let me know if you still want me to explain it to you, however.
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Re: Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...) 

Post#253 » by Ruhiel » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:27 am

ummm...Deng is a much lesser player than Smith.

I thought he was having some sort of at least average shooting year.

Deng is .507 TS% compared to Smith's .495 TS% ?
Or more properly
Deng 50.7%
vs
Smith's 49.5% that's a joke.

Smith's usually undersized, playing against bigger players that keep him out the paint, what's Dengs excuse?
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Re: Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...) 

Post#254 » by Effigy » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:31 am

My first reaction was that Josh's numbers aren't THAT good. They are good, and close to all-star caliber, but then I compared them to Deng and Iggy, and now I think he has a case. He's having better numbers than both of those guys.
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Re: Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...) 

Post#255 » by dice » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:38 am

Effigy wrote:My first reaction was that Josh's numbers aren't THAT good. They are good, and close to all-star caliber, but then I compared them to Deng and Iggy, and now I think he has a case. He's having better numbers than both of those guys.

he might have a case as compared to deng, but iggy is just so good outside of the scoring department
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Re: Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...) 

Post#256 » by orlandomanic » Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:47 am

Effigy wrote:My first reaction was that Josh's numbers aren't THAT good. They are good, and close to all-star caliber, but then I compared them to Deng and Iggy, and now I think he has a case. He's having better numbers than both of those guys.


.... better numbers
.... better record
.... helping his team win
.... less help from teammates, Rose > Joe, Ray/KG/Rond > Joe
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Re: Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...) 

Post#257 » by melonheadboy » Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:52 am

To me, it's obvious. The game itself is a meaningless highlight fest. It is however VERY important to players to be recognized as all stars. so why not add a few spots to the roster. I say increase it by 3 and while not eliminating snubs, at least then you could reward the three division leaders with 2 spots and allow for a few outstanding players(having outstanding seasons) from mid level teams. Josh Smith and Monta Ellis, along with Rudy Gay deserved to be selected. But so did Deng, Nash and Iggy. Come on NBA, get it right. You don't have to put in a player from every team, but a few more players wouldn't hurt.
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Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...) 

Post#258 » by BROWN » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:58 am

The whole Harden over Monta debate some guy was having before, just wanted to point out that it's clear that he's never played basketball before.

If you play with 2 other premiere players, the opponents #1,2 gameplan is NOT to stop you.

Harden is a 6th man, who puts up good efficient numbers, playing with STARS.

The last time Harden was the #1 guy, and defenses keyed on him was in college, and how did that pan out? Possibly the worst showcase from a top 5 pick in the tournament that year.

People amaze me sometimes, when they can't use basic logic. Take off your glasses put your thinking hat on, and pretend like you play basketball.

Back to Tony and Nash over Ellis.

Tony started heating up late, without Manu I was expecting allot more out of him, but it just didn't feel like when I was watching him that he was doing what he usually does, is pretty much dominate games like he did last year with Manu out..

And Nash well he got picked even though he was on a bad team... That's what irks me the most, Ellis lost Curry for nearly a month, and lost Brown and managed the Warriors better then he has in the past... Taking less shots, making the extra pass.. Etc. He tied the most points scored this season by a player on good shooting against the best team in the conference...he's posted huge assists numbers, he's taken major leaps from the past years as being a point, and dude still doesn't get any love.

Nash is having a great shooting year, on a bad team, he's leading the league in assists, but i feel like if your gonna pick someone on a bad team, might as well give it to the guy who's done work on a nightly basis playing 40+ min for 75+ games for 3 straight seasons... That takes a toll on someone's body and seriously changes the way people look at him.

They think, snap he's playing 40 a night he should be posting up huge numbers.. Like its 2k and fatigue doesn't kick in... He's the #1 option (which he shouldn't be), coaches game plan to stop him, and he manages to find ways to keep it up.

I guess coaches haves tendencies to pick guys who have already been there... And will only pick a new guy if the team is doing GREAT.
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Re: Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...) 

Post#259 » by coldgrip1 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:17 am

BROWN wrote:The whole Harden over Monta debate some guy was having before, just wanted to point out that it's clear that he's never played basketball before.

If you play with 2 other premiere players, the opponents #1,2 gameplan is NOT to stop you.

Harden is a 6th man, who puts up good efficient numbers, playing with STARS.

The last time Harden was the #1 guy, and defenses keyed on him was in college, and how did that pan out? Possibly the worst showcase from a top 5 pick in the tournament that year.

People amaze me sometimes, when they can't use basic logic. Take off your glasses put your thinking hat on, and pretend like you play basketball.

Back to Tony and Nash over Ellis.

Tony started heating up late, without Manu I was expecting allot more out of him, but it just didn't feel like when I was watching him that he was doing what he usually does, is pretty much dominate games like he did last year with Manu out..

And Nash well he got picked even though he was on a bad team... That's what irks me the most, Ellis lost Curry for nearly a month, and lost Brown and managed the Warriors better then he has in the past... Taking less shots, making the extra pass.. Etc. He tied the most points scored this season by a player on good shooting against the best team in the conference...he's posted huge assists numbers, he's taken major leaps from the past years as being a point, and dude still doesn't get any love.

Nash is having a great shooting year, on a bad team, he's leading the league in assists, but i feel like if your gonna pick someone on a bad team, might as well give it to the guy who's done work on a nightly basis playing 40+ min for 75+ games for 3 straight seasons... That takes a toll on someone's body and seriously changes the way people look at him.

They think, snap he's playing 40 a night he should be posting up huge numbers.. Like its 2k and fatigue doesn't kick in... He's the #1 option (which he shouldn't be), coaches game plan to stop him, and he manages to find ways to keep it up.

I guess coaches haves tendencies to pick guys who have already been there... And will only pick a new guy if the team is doing GREAT.


I already posted Harden's stats since he took over as a starter or played starter minutes after Selofosha went down. Harden's stats actually REGRESSED with more minutes and he had some DISASTROUS games.

His already-ordinary PPG actually went down with more minutes and efficiency took a sh*t.

All this, as OKC's 3rd, 4th option :lol:




But dude don't make us Warriors fans look bad. Ellis is having a down year. Wildly inconsistent. He had better years. No way I'd vote Ellis into the all-star game this year. Nash has been a shooting clinic.
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Josh Smith and Monta Ellis got screwed! (again...) 

Post#260 » by BROWN » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:22 am

I'm not making Warrior fans look bad at all, I'm saying If your picking players from bad teams, at least have the courtesy to give it to the guy who's been stuck on one for his whole career. Nash is also playing what 30 min a night? He's great, shooting numbers are outstanding, but again the double standards with the "not picking" on bad teams kick in...

The suns have had a favorable schedule compared to the warriors...

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