2011

[IronChef]

Something needs to be done to raise the standards of pitches in the EPL. Pitches like the one in Sunderland on saturday shouldn't be played on. I know teams use them as advantage to slow the game down, but they're also dangerous. Now Mertesacker is injured indefinitely from playing on it.

Was it Villa Park earlier this season where two or three players picked up fairly serious injuries from the pitch? Reckon it was the Villa/Man Utd game. Jermaine Jenas stumbled and ruptured his achilles with no-one near him, and a couple of other players got hurt in innocuous situations, too.

Yep, that was another one. There are a few teams that use it as strategy, Birmingham comes to mind as well. It's the EPL, pitch condition shouldn't be an issue.

[treiz]

Sepp Blatter said a few months ago that any racist actions should be dealt with a handshake and was ridiculed massively for it. So why does it matter so greatly if Suarez didn't shake Evra's hand? If the handshake according to guys like Rio doesn't justify or make up for the abuse then why is Suarez in the wrong? If Suarez and Evra did shake hands then why would that have been the end of it since Blatter was pretty much crucified for saying the exact same thing not that long ago?

Serious hypocrisy by everyone involved. Blatter was right all along i guess

Because this situation wasn't just about the handshake. The Suarez/Evra incident was investigated, and Suarez was found to be guilty and subsequently banned, which Blatter's "settle it with a handshake argument" seemed to suggest wasn't necessary.

It's what happened after that which made this whole thing worse. Despite accepting the ban, Suarez and Liverpool continued to claim they had been hard done by, seemingly on account of cultural differences. If cultural differences was really the case, then they should have recognised that culturally they understood why Evra took offence to Suarez making several references to his skin colour during their argument, and why culturally referring to a black person as "negro" - particularly in an acrimonious situation - is not acceptable in England, where the incident took place, and apologised. Instead, they tried to play the victim, right up until Suarez' return from his ban a couple of weeks ago where Dalglish ignited the whole situation again by saying "he should never have been banned in the first place".

Neither Liverpool nor Luis Suarez ever apologised to Patrice Evra for the original incident at Anfield. Several months later, there was an opportunity to bury the hatchet (as best as it could be) during the lineup before the game on Saturday, and Suarez (after allegedly telling Dalglish and Ayre that he would shake Evra's hand) found a way to make it worse again.

The lack of handshake wasn't the be-all and end-all, it just kept the wound open. We'll never know for sure, but you'd like to think that if Suarez had just taken Evra's hand on Saturday, Ferdinand would have taken Suarez' and there wouldn't have been the silliness we saw at half-time and full-time.

Thankfully, common sense has finally prevailed, Liverpool, Dalglish and Suarez have issued apologies, and perhaps now everyone can move on. Had they not, this whole thing would have carried on until the first fixture between the two clubs next season.

But that's not my point though, when Blatter said those things like everyone else I was outraged with what he said. My point is if the handshake wasn't going to redeem the racial abuse Suarez inflicted upon Evra then why have it in the first place? Not just that, but when Suarez refused to shake Evra's hand then why is everyone making a big fuss of it? If everybody said (including myself) that a handshake doesn't simply put these things under the carpet then why were there arrangements for it in the first place and why is everybody overreacting for something they were for which is a handshake doesn't all of a sudden mean he's forgiven. For goodness sake, whether Suare shook his hand or not wouldn't have mattered, he still would've been viewed as a racist simply because a handshake doesn't solve this problem. The Chelsea-QPR game dealt with it the only way the could

[Ted Lasso]

But that's not my point though, when Blatter said those things like everyone else I was outraged with what he said. My point is if the handshake wasn't going to redeem the racial abuse Suarez inflicted upon Evra then why have it in the first place? Not just that, but when Suarez refused to shake Evra's hand then why is everyone making a big fuss of it? If everybody said (including myself) that a handshake doesn't simply put these things under the carpet then why were there arrangements for it in the first place and why is everybody overreacting for something they were for which is a handshake doesn't all of a sudden mean he's forgiven. For goodness sake, whether Suare shook his hand or not wouldn't have mattered, he still would've been viewed as a racist simply because a handshake doesn't solve this problem. The Chelsea-QPR game dealt with it the only way the could

The difference is that this issue has already been addressed. The charge was taken seriously, the investigation is over, and a ban was served. At this point, a handshake would have been a good way of moving on.

That's not the process Sepp Blatter advocated at all.

Moreover, people took issue with Blatter's comments on behalf of potential racially abused individuals who would've been faced with having to accept a mere handshake as addressing the issue. They weren't speculating on whether the player who was charged with (and then found guilty of, which again, never would've happened in Sepp's world) racist abuse would have the audacity to refuse a handshake.

[Eoghan]

Evra is a complete piece of ****.

I'm not a fan of Evra in any way, but, how exactly is he in the wrong in this situation?

At least he tried to move on and shake hands, unlike Suarez who acts like a petulant child. Good on Liverpool for finally denouncing his actions, should have done it much sooner. He'll be gone in the summer.

Because he felt entitled to a handshake, b/c he got Suarez banned for racism even though he wrote that he didn't think Suarez was a racist, b/c he called him a "South American" in a negative connotation and allowed his xenophobia and the FA's ethnocentrism to ruin Suarez's season and maybe career. Oh, and b/c he danced like a child all around Suarez and tried to goad him into an argument several times despite Suarez trying to ignore him and behave.

[Ted Lasso]

I can only imagine Evra called Suarez "South American" in a friendly manner in an attempt to defuse the tension between them.

[IronChef]

Evra is a complete piece of ****.

I'm not a fan of Evra in any way, but, how exactly is he in the wrong in this situation?

At least he tried to move on and shake hands, unlike Suarez who acts like a petulant child. Good on Liverpool for finally denouncing his actions, should have done it much sooner. He'll be gone in the summer.

Because he felt entitled to a handshake, b/c he got Suarez banned for racism even though he wrote that he didn't think Suarez was a racist, b/c he called him a "South American" in a negative connotation and allowed his xenophobia and the FA's ethnocentrism to ruin Suarez's season and maybe career. Oh, and b/c he danced like a child all around Suarez and tried to goad him into an argument several times despite Suarez trying to ignore him and behave.

Is this a joke?

Felt entitled to a handshake? It's a ceremonious handshake that takes place before all games, Suarez made it a big deal. He didn't get Suarez banned, or ruin his career or season. He complained because he felt he'd been racially abused, and an independent panel looked at the facts and decided Suarez was guilty. He 'allowed the FA's enthnocentrism to ruin Suarez's career'? really, Evra did that?

I won't defend him dancing around at the end. That was childish. But, Suarez kept this thing going when he could have moved on. Hopefully everyone can give it a rest now and move on.

[Ong_dynasty]

This is the same Evra who has cried "racist" over and over again throughout his career in England.
This is the same Evra who used a derogitory term back to Suarez.
This is the same Evra who has a video of him using the "n" word like it is nothing (oh i forget thats fine right.)

I always find it P.C gone wrong when people "pick up" on the term black, but not on other offensive things done on the pitch.
If he said, i dont speak to french people or manc C*nts, is that fine? would he have gotten an 8 match ban?
I despise John Terry (and would always go along with the joke), but am I the only one that finds it hilarious that people are focusing on the term black rather than "c*nt"? is that not P.C gone wrong?
So nowadays calling your mum / sister a wh*re or you are a c*nt. that is part of the game right?

Why I am defending Suarez, is because I genuinely do not believe he is "racist". the terms he has said are things in the heat of the moment. and to be branded as one for the rest of your career how would you feel?
and this is why I understand why Suarez is aggrieved and understand why he does not want to shake Evra's hand.
I did think he should have made it clear from the very beginning to Liverpool, so I understand why he should have apologised to the fans and liverpool.

Also why doesnt Rio get any blame? what he did was really okay right?

anyways rant over

[treiz]

But that's not my point though, when Blatter said those things like everyone else I was outraged with what he said. My point is if the handshake wasn't going to redeem the racial abuse Suarez inflicted upon Evra then why have it in the first place? Not just that, but when Suarez refused to shake Evra's hand then why is everyone making a big fuss of it? If everybody said (including myself) that a handshake doesn't simply put these things under the carpet then why were there arrangements for it in the first place and why is everybody overreacting for something they were for which is a handshake doesn't all of a sudden mean he's forgiven. For goodness sake, whether Suare shook his hand or not wouldn't have mattered, he still would've been viewed as a racist simply because a handshake doesn't solve this problem. The Chelsea-QPR game dealt with it the only way the could

The difference is that this issue has already been addressed. The charge was taken seriously, the investigation is over, and a ban was served. At this point, a handshake would have been a good way of moving on.

That's not the process Sepp Blatter advocated at all.

Moreover, people took issue with Blatter's comments on behalf of potential racially abused individuals who would've been faced with having to accept a mere handshake as addressing the issue. They weren't speculating on whether the player who was charged with (and then found guilty of, which again, never would've happened in Sepp's world) racist abuse would have the audacity to refuse a handshake.

Just because there was an investigation and Suarez was found guilty makes the handshake ok? Let's be honest here whether Suarez was found guilty or not he would still hve been viewed as a racist. The same thing will happen to John Terry, if he is proven to be innocent his image will have been tarnished further and he will always have that 'racist' brand on his name. Just because there was a legal process undertaken doesn't sweep this under the carpet, do you actually believe that if Suarez and Evra shook hands everything will be back to normal?

Exactly, potentially. And now when put in practice everybody is doing what Sepp is advocating. Ok, let me try this. Remember the Oldham-Liverpool game a few months back when one of the Oldham players thought the crowd was shouting 'black c***' to him when really it was 'Manc ****'. If the guy was tried and found guilty and you were that player would you actually just simply accept a handshake?

[MitchellUK]

Sepp Blatter said a few months ago that any racist actions should be dealt with a handshake and was ridiculed massively for it. So why does it matter so greatly if Suarez didn't shake Evra's hand? If the handshake according to guys like Rio doesn't justify or make up for the abuse then why is Suarez in the wrong? If Suarez and Evra did shake hands then why would that have been the end of it since Blatter was pretty much crucified for saying the exact same thing not that long ago?

Serious hypocrisy by everyone involved. Blatter was right all along i guess

Because this situation wasn't just about the handshake. The Suarez/Evra incident was investigated, and Suarez was found to be guilty and subsequently banned, which Blatter's "settle it with a handshake argument" seemed to suggest wasn't necessary.

It's what happened after that which made this whole thing worse. Despite accepting the ban, Suarez and Liverpool continued to claim they had been hard done by, seemingly on account of cultural differences. If cultural differences was really the case, then they should have recognised that culturally they understood why Evra took offence to Suarez making several references to his skin colour during their argument, and why culturally referring to a black person as "negro" - particularly in an acrimonious situation - is not acceptable in England, where the incident took place, and apologised. Instead, they tried to play the victim, right up until Suarez' return from his ban a couple of weeks ago where Dalglish ignited the whole situation again by saying "he should never have been banned in the first place".

Neither Liverpool nor Luis Suarez ever apologised to Patrice Evra for the original incident at Anfield. Several months later, there was an opportunity to bury the hatchet (as best as it could be) during the lineup before the game on Saturday, and Suarez (after allegedly telling Dalglish and Ayre that he would shake Evra's hand) found a way to make it worse again.

The lack of handshake wasn't the be-all and end-all, it just kept the wound open. We'll never know for sure, but you'd like to think that if Suarez had just taken Evra's hand on Saturday, Ferdinand would have taken Suarez' and there wouldn't have been the silliness we saw at half-time and full-time.

Thankfully, common sense has finally prevailed, Liverpool, Dalglish and Suarez have issued apologies, and perhaps now everyone can move on. Had they not, this whole thing would have carried on until the first fixture between the two clubs next season.

But that's not my point though, when Blatter said those things like everyone else I was outraged with what he said. My point is if the handshake wasn't going to redeem the racial abuse Suarez inflicted upon Evra then why have it in the first place? Not just that, but when Suarez refused to shake Evra's hand then why is everyone making a big fuss of it? If everybody said (including myself) that a handshake doesn't simply put these things under the carpet then why were there arrangements for it in the first place and why is everybody overreacting for something they were for which is a handshake doesn't all of a sudden mean he's forgiven. For goodness sake, whether Suare shook his hand or not wouldn't have mattered, he still would've been viewed as a racist simply because a handshake doesn't solve this problem. The Chelsea-QPR game dealt with it the only way the could

You're right that a handshake on it's own doesn't solve the problem, but in this situation people felt it drew a line under the saga. I think people made a fuss of it because the victim offered his hand and the perpetrator was the one who ignored the gesture.

The question of whether the whole pre-match handshake ceremony should occur at all is a different debate altogether, but it happens before every game, this wasn't a special situation. I think there are certainly arguments both ways, and as you say, Chelsea-QPR removed it and that was for the better.

The difference in the Liverpool-Man Utd situation was that, according to Dalglish and his club, Suarez had indicated he would shake Evra's hand during the pre-match lineup, while with QPR Anton Ferdinand had said he wouldn't shake Terry's. I think Liverpool as a club thought, like everyone else, that if Suarez and Evra shook hands, it would draw a line under what had happened, the media could stop talking about it, it would be a public gesture of a truce, so to speak.

[MitchellUK]

Why I am defending Suarez, is because I genuinely do not believe he is "racist". the terms he has said are things in the heat of the moment. and to be branded as one for the rest of your career how would you feel?
and this is why I understand why Suarez is aggrieved and understand why he does not want to shake Evra's hand.
I did think he should have made it clear from the very beginning to Liverpool, so I understand why he should have apologised to the fans and liverpool.

Also why doesnt Rio get any blame? what he did was really okay right?

anyways rant over

I don't get this. So if a usually calm, mild-mannered and friendly person gets into a heated argument with someone and punches them in the face, breaking their jaw, they shouldn't be punished? They should feel like a victim if they get a jail sentence? They should be angry at their accuser for telling the police?

Context can make a person's actions more forgivable or understandable, but it doesn't change the fact that wrong is wrong. Suarez may not at heart be a racist person, but in the heat of that argument he made reference to someone's skin colour in an antagonistic manner, and they took offence. Boo hoo for Suarez.

I've not seen many people say that Luis Suarez is "a racist". They have said that what he said "was racist". It may follow him for the rest of his career, but those are the unfortunate consequences of what he said.

As for Rio, no, I don't think he deserves much blame. He was the next guy down the line from De Gea, in a split second decided he wouldn't take Suarez' hand after Suarez refused Evra's. Had Suarez shaken Evra's hand and then Ferdinand refused to do so, it would be a different situation. Evra himself does deserve criticism for his actions at the final whistle, where he was clearly trying to wind Suarez up and stir the pot. That was stupid and cost him the moral high ground.

[MitchellUK]

I always find it P.C gone wrong when people "pick up" on the term black, but not on other offensive things done on the pitch.
If he said, i dont speak to french people or manc C*nts, is that fine? would he have gotten an 8 match ban?
I despise John Terry (and would always go along with the joke), but am I the only one that finds it hilarious that people are focusing on the term black rather than "c*nt"? is that not P.C gone wrong?
So nowadays calling your mum / sister a wh*re or you are a c*nt. that is part of the game right?

I meant to address this as well.

Short answer to the P.C gone wrong, yes and no. I think there are certain things that warrant more attention than others, and when insults become racial in context, they deserve a heavier hand.

That said, I do find the level of swearing and generic abuse on the pitch and from the stands that is allowed to slide bizarre and disappointing. It's absurd the number of times cameras will zoom in on players as they insult the ref/linesman or tell someone to "f*** off". And regularly watching games in person, I know some of the stuff coming from the stands is even worse.

Clubs and their stewards need to do a better job of controlling supporters and ejecting them where necessary. The F.A (and it's counterparts in other countries where this is an issue, which is most countries with massive football leagues) need to take a harder stance on the general foul language and yobbish behaviour on the pitch. Telling a ref to eff off (or anything similar) should be an immediate red in my eyes. In fact, I am pretty sure that under the "foul and abusive language" laws of the game, it is, or at the very least should be a yellow, but referees tend to let it slide, and therein lies the problem.

So yeah, in that respect maybe Suarez might feel hard done by. Not that he got an 8-game ban - because that was deserved - but that other players who spend their Saturdays yelling abuse at each other don't get sent off and/or bans for their conduct, and that fans are allowed to yell obscenities from the stands with little or no risk of punishment.

[5DOM]

This is the same Evra who has cried "racist" over and over again throughout his career in England.
This is the same Evra who used a derogitory term back to Suarez.
This is the same Evra who has a video of him using the "n" word like it is nothing (oh i forget thats fine right.)

I always find it P.C gone wrong when people "pick up" on the term black, but not on other offensive things done on the pitch.
If he said, i dont speak to french people or manc C*nts, is that fine? would he have gotten an 8 match ban?
I despise John Terry (and would always go along with the joke), but am I the only one that finds it hilarious that people are focusing on the term black rather than "c*nt"? is that not P.C gone wrong?
So nowadays calling your mum / sister a wh*re or you are a c*nt. that is part of the game right?

Why I am defending Suarez, is because I genuinely do not believe he is "racist". the terms he has said are things in the heat of the moment. and to be branded as one for the rest of your career how would you feel?
and this is why I understand why Suarez is aggrieved and understand why he does not want to shake Evra's hand.
I did think he should have made it clear from the very beginning to Liverpool, so I understand why he should have apologised to the fans and liverpool.

Also why doesnt Rio get any blame? what he did was really okay right?

anyways rant over

I do think that if the term Evra used was African or Asian instead of South American, it would have been a much bigger deal. Same thing with Terry situation. If a player said white **** instead of black ****, I doubt it would have attracted this much attention.

[treiz]

@MitchellUK

But the thing is the handshake wouldn't have been the end of it, literally all they've done is try and sweep this situation under the carpet and it's just wrong and by actually having the handshake, they're actually agreeing with what Blatter said. My main thing that I am trying to get across here is the contradiction of everybody involved. Sepp said those things not long ago and he was ridiculed and yet put it in practice and they're preaching what he was ridiculed for. Its utterly ridiculous show fickle and idiotic the FA is. If this was dealt like the QPR-Chelsea game none of this fuss would've happened, it doesn't matter if there was pre-emotive knowledge. If they actually stuck to their guns and believe what they say then they know a handshake would never be enough.

Another thing as well, is calling someone a black **** really worse than calling someone a ****?

[IronChef]

I don't think that they're agreeing with Blatter about handshakes solving the problem. I think it just shows a willingness to accept that Suarez had served the punishment he had been given, and it was time to move on.

I would have been find with cancelling the handshakes, or cancelling them all together (for all games). His refusal to shake hands with Evra just added to the spectacle, gave the press more to write about, and dragged on a situation which should have been put to bed.

[treiz]

Doesn't matter which way you look at it, at the end of the day they're trying to sweep this under tha carpet with a handshake. It doesn't matter if Suarez accepeted it willingly or unwillingly. The FA is trying to move from this with a handshake, which is precisely what Blatter was advocating.

[IronChef]

Doesn't matter which way you look at it, at the end of the day they're trying to sweep this under tha carpet with a handshake. It doesn't matter if Suarez accepeted it willingly or unwillingly. The FA is trying to move from this with a handshake, which is precisely what Blatter was advocating.

No, that is not at all what is happening. The FA punished Suarez, to them it's over. Nobody is trying to sweep anything under a rug. That's a very different thing from moving on. The punishment has been served, Suarez's refusal to shake hands only provided talking points for the media and fans. They weren't supposed to shake hands because of what happened, they were supposed to shake hands because that's how every game starts.

This has nothing to do with Blatters comments, his comments were offensive because they inferred that when passionate players are in the heat of the moment, racial slurs just come out and it's no big deal, just shake hands and forget about it. Which also means he doesn't think an 8 game ban is necessary, which the FA clearly did.

[treiz]

I know that every game starts with the pre-match handshake. But in this scenario because of the circumstances it should've been canceled. Now I know the FA has punished Suarez for his actions, but this isn't about the FA doin what they needed to do. This is about Suarez and Evra and them two racially abusing each other. If this happened on let's say a construction workers site, do you think a handshake would suffice? To the FA it mightve been over if they did shake hands, but do you think for the two people involved it would be? There's no doubt in my mind they would be professional about it, but it certainly wont be forgotten.

But when Suarez and Evra said those comments, it was In the heat of the moment, and what the FA tried to do here is just shake hands and move on. That's what the context of Blatters comments is, shake hands and sweep it under the rug (or in your words forget about it) which is what the FA tried to do, even Fergie said to 'draw a line' under the incident

[Ted Lasso]

For crying outloud, Sepp Blatter said nothing about an investigation, nothing about independent arbiters, nothing about potential sanctions. Just because both scenarios end with a handshake, doesn't mean they are the same thing.

It's one thing to be critical of the way the FA has handled the matter, complete other to equate it to the ridiculousness Blatter spewed.

[treiz]

But no matter what way you look at it, you can take away the investigation you can even add whatever the hell you like to he situation. The FA is trying to move from this with a handshake. The investigation doesn't matter, the two clubs saying they will shake hands doesn't matter. The bigger picture of what I've been trying to get across is that everybody involved tried to move on past this with a damn handshake, and it's contradictory and in short defines what Sepp said, just because he didn't say whether the handshake should've been done before or after the investigation it's still the same. They're still trying to deal with it similarly.

Let me ask you then, if somebody racially abused you in your workplace and an investigation was held and they suspend the other person for let's say 2 months. When he/she comes back would you firstly shake hands with him? Secondly, if you do would you actually forgive and forget?

[Ted Lasso]

But no matter what way you look at it, you can take away the investigation you can even add whatever the hell you like to he situation. The FA is trying to move from this with a handshake. The investigation doesn't matter, the two clubs saying they will shake hands doesn't matter. The bigger picture of what I've been trying to get across is that everybody involved tried to move on past this with a damn handshake, and it's contradictory and in short defines what Sepp said, just because he didn't say whether the handshake should've been done before or after the investigation it's still the same. They're still trying to deal with it similarly.

I dunno what else to add to this discussion. I understand this is a complicated situation. I understand why people have been critical of how the FA has handled the matter. But what they've done and what Blatter suggested ought to be done are two completely different things.

Let me ask you then, if somebody racially abused you in your workplace and an investigation was held and they suspend the other person for let's say 2 months. When he/she comes back would you firstly shake hands with him? Secondly, if you do would you actually forgive and forget?

If the co-worker apologized, i most likely would shake his hand and forgive and forget. But i don't see how this is relevant for a number of reasons. Luis Suarez still maintains he is innocent. He hasn't apologized, not even for the bits he admitted to. And it was him, rather than Patrice Evra, who refused the handshake.