Is anyone else noticing this?

[Wannabe MEP]

The Suns are actually playing excellent basketball against units with traditional frontcourts such as Gasol + Bynum. But we're getting absolutely throttled by small ball or more versatile 4s. Last night the Warriors started the game with a David Lee/Biedrins frontcourt with Dorell Wright at the 3, which is a fairly traditional combo. We subsequently dominated them. If you saw the first quarter, you know that they couldn't do anything, while we were scoring at will.

Then they subbed Ekpe Udoh in for Biedrins, which moved Lee to the five: suddenly they're smaller but A LOT quicker, and the tables start to subtly shift. They pick away at the lead throughout the 2nd quarter. In the third quarter, they play Biedrins again, and we start rolling again, but they take him out quickly. When they take him out, we're ahead by 8. They replace him with a SG, Brandon Rush, so now they're really small: Curry-Ellis-Rush-Wright-Lee. Our lead evaporates. They keep either Lee or Udoh at the 5 for the rest of the game with a quick/shooter 4, typically with a guard (Rush or Klay Thompson) at the 3. We get outplayed the rest of the game and never really challenge again. They were just so much quicker than us.

This is not the first example. This has been a HUGE problem all season, but I don't feel like anyone is talking about it. Obviously the FO hasn't made any moves to address it, but neither has Gentry. (Umm...maybe that shouldn't be a surprise since we know he's incompetent.)

--If you're the FO, the solution is incredibly obvious, and has been for a long time: you need to trade for an athletic 4 who plays defense and move Frye to the 5.
--If you're Gentry, the solution is incredibly obvious, and has been for a long time: you need to go small when your team is getting out-quicked. We've been enormously successful with Dudley at the 4.

Neither the FO or Gentry have done sh*t.

[RunDogGun]

To be fair, GS had a ton of help last night from the officiating. Call after call went their way, and those smaller players were allowed to grab and hold us at every turn, travel excessively, and set moving screens one after the other.

Take those and sub Price for Telfail in the second quarter, never play Lopez, and we win by ten or more. But I see where you are going with this.

[wordsenuff]

i noticed this as well. gentry needs to take his head out of his ass sometimes and realize whats playing out on the floor. gortat and frye were raped by david lee. morris played well against him tho.

redd was terrible, someone teach this guy some D! if we want some one to chuck the ball why not play brown? at least he puts more defense on the floor.

[MathiasPW]

a great thread. Thank you Los Soles...

I didn't notice that until you pointed it out, which is actually what makes your point so precious.

And to think we were supposed to be the fast team in most of the games.

[YFZblu]

And to think we were supposed to be the fast team in most of the games.

Meh...The 2012 Suns are currently ranked 17th in pace at 91.2 possessions per 48 minutes.

[YFZblu]

The Suns are actually playing excellent basketball against units with traditional frontcourts such as Gasol + Bynum. But we're getting absolutely throttled by small ball or more versatile 4s. Last night the Warriors started the game with a David Lee/Biedrins frontcourt with Dorell Wright at the 3, which is a fairly traditional combo. We subsequently dominated them. If you saw the first quarter, you know that they couldn't do anything, while we were scoring at will.

Then they subbed Ekpe Udoh in for Biedrins, which moved Lee to the five: suddenly they're smaller but A LOT quicker, and the tables start to subtly shift. They pick away at the lead throughout the 2nd quarter. In the third quarter, they play Biedrins again, and we start rolling again, but they take him out quickly. When they take him out, we're ahead by 8. They replace him with a SG, Brandon Rush, so now they're really small: Curry-Ellis-Rush-Wright-Lee. Our lead evaporates. They keep either Lee or Udoh at the 5 for the rest of the game with a quick/shooter 4, typically with a guard (Rush or Klay Thompson) at the 3. We get outplayed the rest of the game and never really challenge again. They were just so much quicker than us.

This is not the first example. This has been a HUGE problem all season, but I don't feel like anyone is talking about it. Obviously the FO hasn't made any moves to address it, but neither has Gentry. (Umm...maybe that shouldn't be a surprise since we know he's incompetent.)

--If you're the FO, the solution is incredibly obvious, and has been for a long time: you need to trade for an athletic 4 who plays defense and move Frye to the 5.
--If you're Gentry, the solution is incredibly obvious, and has been for a long time: you need to go small when your team is getting out-quicked. We've been enormously successful with Dudley at the 4.

Neither the FO or Gentry have done sh*t.

I mean, at this point I'm assuming the Suns know they could make this team better; however perhaps at this point not tanking but not winning is what they want. Then again, I fully understand that NBA staff isn't invincible to looking like fools...Jeremy Lin, for example.

[mybloodisorange]

I know it cant be proven but I think Gentry is in stealth tank mode. Nothing else explains letting Telfair grind the offense to a halt as he does with such amazing skill.

[YFZblu]

I know it cant be proven but I think Gentry is in stealth tank mode. Nothing else explains letting Telfair grind the offense to a halt as he does with such amazing skill.

I'll never forget last season...Alvin just kept harping in media about not wanting it enough, not playing hard enough, etc...When in reality good teams don't play Hakim Warrick when Jared Dudley is sitting on the bench waiting for minutes. He legitimately pisses me off.

D'antoni was occasionally frustrating with his rotation, but at least that team was winning ball games. Not that we're dealing with the same level of talent or anything, I'm just saying.

[Wannabe MEP]

Exhibit B:
Tied 62-62 against Denver in the 3rd quarter. They sub in...a versatile stretch-4. Al Harrington. They're soon up 20.

Harrington is +26 for the game.

[RunSunRun]

Well, we also subbed in Brownstreaks for Redd, so that also contributed to the Nuggets going on a huge run.

I get what you are saying with more athletic small-ball teams, but I think our team just isn't that good period. If anything, we've overachieved up to this point.

[Wannabe MEP]

They only played two 4s last night: Faried and Harrington.

When Faried was in, we won 58-51 . . . +7
When Harrington was in, we lost 34-58 . . . -24

[Wannabe MEP]

Exhibit C: Lakers

Gasol-Bynum frontcourt, we won 54-38 . . . +16
Walton-Gasol frontcourt, we lost 13-47 . . . -34

[Wannabe MEP]

Exhibit D: Cavs

Thompson at the 4, we won 31-23 . . . +8
Jamison at the 4, we lost 59-78 . . . -19

[Wannabe MEP]

Exhibit A: Warriors

Lee-Biedrins frontcourt, we won . . . +10
Small-ball frontcourts, we lost . . . -16

[Wannabe MEP]

Exhibit E: Dallas

Dallas plays a stretch-4 pretty much all the time: Dirk, Odom, Marion, or Cardinal. So no matter what they do, we're f*cked...
All stretch-4s, we lost 188-220 . . . -32

[Wannabe MEP]

So to recap...

Exhibit A: Warriors
Lee-Biedrins frontcourt, we won . . . +10
Small-ball frontcourts, we lost . . . -16

Exhibit B: Denver
When Faried was in, we won 58-51 . . . +7
When Harrington was in, we lost 34-58 . . . -24

Exhibit C: Lakers
Gasol-Bynum frontcourt, we won 54-38 . . . +16
Walton-Gasol frontcourt, we lost 13-47 . . . -34

Exhibit D: Cavs
Thompson at the 4, we won 31-23 . . . +8
Jamison at the 4, we lost 59-78 . . . -19

Exhibit E: Dallas
Dallas plays a stretch-4 pretty much all the time: Dirk, Odom, Marion, or Cardinal. So no matter what they do, we're f*cked...
All stretch-4s, we lost 188-220 . . . -32

And the totals:
Against these 5 teams' traditional frontcourts, we are . . . +51
Against their small ball frontcourts/stretch-4s, we are . . . -125

[Cutter]

Based on our current roster, the only "small ball" option I see on the front court would be to sit Gortat early and run Frye at C, Morris at PF, and Childress at SF?

Frye stretchs the floor from the 5, and Nash - Morris PnR? Also, last couple of games Morris seems to have upped his low post game a bit. Start Chilldress at the 3 for the ability to slash to the rim.

Maybe get Hedo back and let him start at PF!

[Cash]

Correlation does not imply causation. One possible explanation is that most teams start a very conventional lineup, and are more likely to play small with reserves in the game. So maybe it's just a matter of the Suns' bench sucking. I'd like to see the with/without Nash splits compared to the conventional/small-ball splits in Los Soles' examples. (Very good examples, btw - thanks for putting in the work!)

But if the problem is that the Suns can't handle stretch 4s or small-ball or whatever, then the question becomes "why?" What's impacted - offense, defense, or rebounding? Traditional D'Antoni/Nash teams would often struggle against some small-ball lineups because they no longer had a speed advantage when on offense, and still got outrebounded even against the smaller lineup. Is that the case here as well, or is it more of a problem of our bigs being too slow to guard the opponents' stretch 4s? Honestly, I haven't watched enough games this year to suggest any answers (I miss you, League Pass), but I'm curious what you guys think.

[Wannabe MEP]

Based on our current roster, the only "small ball" option I see on the front court would be to sit Gortat early and run Frye at C, Morris at PF, and Childress at SF?

Nope. Dudley at the 4 next to Gortat, or Chilly at the 4 next to Frye.

But if the problem is that the Suns can't handle stretch 4s or small-ball or whatever, then the question becomes "why?" What's impacted - offense, defense, or rebounding?

The problem is that we're simply not quick enough at the 4. Frye and Markieff are both SLOW 4s--opposite identity from Amare and Lou.

What's impacted - offense, defense, or rebounding?

All of the above.

1) Offense:
We struggle against more mobile frontcourts. A traditional center is too slow to guard the Nash-Gortat pick-and-roll, but when teams go small and switch a more mobile PF-type onto Gortat, they have the mobility to hedge on Nash and recover to Gortat. The D'Antoni theory: "You can't guard us unless you go small...but good luck going small, because we OWN small-ball." Now we're daring teams to go small, except that we're TERRIBLE at it. Actually, we just never do it.

2) Defense:
We're playing "ice" traps approximately all the time--baseline traps with our big coming over on the baseline side to trap their guard in the corner. That means our other big has to zone guard both of their bigs. If one of their bigs can shoot or is a quick slasher, we're basically f*cked. We're not quick enough to scramble out of that trap and recover. With Lou, we would be. Either they get a wide open set shot because we're too slow closing out, or they hit the cutter for an easy dunk/layup while we're scrambling (See: "Lee, David").

3) Rebounding: Quick 4s fly in from the perimeter to steal offensive rebounds after we help. Closely related to #2.

[Miklo]

Another great Los Soles thread/observation.

This is also interesting in light of us having Gortat, who for us is largely unlike any piece we had on our awesome SSOL teams. We finally got what we constantly wished for, a legit, smart, strong center. But to me it seems like the coaching adjustments that go along with such a drastic roster change have not been put in place. You can work a more conventional big into the rotation without killing the possibility of playing or competing against small-ball - I'm just not sure of the best way.

My hope is that we either keep Gortat or replace him with another legit center - but we also need to make major decisions - will we rebuild into a run-n-gun team and if so how do we work a slightly less quick big into it. And of course, is Gentry capable of something this advanced? Okay, that last one was rhetorical.