Official Raptors 2012 NBA Draft Thread, Part 5

[Dr Positivity]

In no way is Harrison Barnes a concept. He is a reality, a second year starter, and while his game may never broaden as much as one would like, you can measure his achievements, and his NBA floor - too many people try to guess at people's ceiling when they should pay more attention to the floor - is probably Jamal Mashburn, which ain't bad at all.

Mash was a 24ppg scorer and 20/7/5 guy later in the NBA. I think he had more talent than Barnes (more explosive, more on the ball skill). Maybe his ceiling is a Mash career. No way would I put a floor that high... for like anyone

It'd be sweet if one of our draft picks made a couple hundred million off restaurants and tried to buy the team in 20 years though

[Dr Positivity]

Why isn't Terrence Jones in the conversation for drafting a SF? He isn't even on the poll? His stats, arguably, are better than MKG and HB, and his frame/athleticism is arguably better too.


Terrence Jones 6'9 7'2 Wingspan 19YO .493FG% .3553FG% 6.5RB 2.0BLK 1.3STL 1.3AST 12.2
Harisson Barnes 6'8 6'9 19 .468 .425 5.0 0.4 1.2 1.0 17.5
M Kidd-Gilchrist 6'7 6'10 18 .475 .282 7.7 1.1 1.2 2.2 12.3

He's definitely a PF in the NBA. Probably a pretty decent one too and worth a top 14 pick. But if he's at the PF position he's behind a longggg list of pretty good prospects

[Kevin Willis]

What makes Barnes that much a greater prospect than Lamb, Ross and MKG. He's a great player. He doesn't have the IT factor more than those others. I do think he's a better player but really is he that much better? I would say no and losing Barnes would not be a huge drop-off with the other players.

[augustine]

He's definitely a PF in the NBA. Probably a pretty decent one too and worth a top 14 pick. But if he's at the PF position he's behind a longggg list of pretty good prospects

Why say he is a PF? He has played more SF, he has the 3point shot, he has good handles, he has the size of a big SF. Is there a reason to say he projects at PF?

[Marlo Stanfield]

What makes Barnes that much a greater prospect than Lamb, Ross and MKG. He's a great player. He doesn't have the IT factor more than those others. I do think he's a better player but really is he that much better? I would say no and losing Barnes would not be a huge drop-off with the other players.

What "it" factor? He steps up in the 2nd half of games and makes clutch shots. Does he have to turn water into wine? Jeez...

[DreamTeam09]

What does it mean by HB doesn't have the IT factor?? He gets all his points iin the 2nd half unassisted too. Hit 5 game winners as a freshman n dropped 40 pts... That's IT ri there...

[Dr Positivity]

Let's just say if we draft Miller and/or Wroten I'd be conflicted through feelings of joy, confusion, surprise and a little bit of hornyness

Everybody here knows how much I love Miller and if BC ever found a way to get Miller AND Calderon

And it's entirely possible too. He just needs to deal the vets. But that's one thing about Colangelo I absolutely HATE. He often talks about and prides himself in being that guys who's not afraid to pull the trigger on risky moves blah blah blah. We've heard it all in his interviews. But one thing I've come to notice is he NEVER takes chances in trades on YOUTH. Young talented guys with swag. Your team needs that and every good basketball team has it.

The only young guy who he traded for for the sole purpose of trying him out was James Johnson and Bayless and even in his case, you can debate that he was just a throw in. O.J Mayo was about to be given away for nothing yet BC didn't acquire him. Rudy Fernandez was being given away for free too yet BC did nothing. He always wants "yes men" and a true star is not going to be a yes man. Hell even upper echelon players like Iggy and Kevin Martin aren't going to be yes men. It's the way of the game. A player who has more talent is going to have more voice. Like I don't see why he can't understand that.

Anyways, if I'm the team owner, I'd be watching him carefully. If he passes on talent because of ego, I would fire him the minute he makes the pick.

Is Q Mill really a talent/high risk pick though? His biggest criticism is that he's very slow for a perimeter player and not as dynamic an on ball player listed. Guys like PJIII, Wroten, T Jones fit the bill to me for talented enigmas. Q Mill isn't very enigmatic to me. The knock on him he's just not that good.

The biggest reason I would HATE the Q Mill pick is I really don't see him making it as a 3 in the NBA. He's too slow and not skilled enough. I don't know if he could even be a 3 in college if Baylor wanted to play him there, if he can't do that there's no chance of it in the NBA. To me if he's good in the NBA he's Ryan Anderson or a Charlie V/Al Harrington/Channing Frye without their character flaws (lazy, selfish, and pussy, respectively). Mismatch stretch 4 who hits 3pters. I think he'll have an NBA career but as a stretch 4, which is the last thing we need. With his size and OK skill level there's little reason IMO to think he can transition to the 3.

For the record I feel like it's going to be irrelevant because I see him staying. I don't think he makes top 16 if he declares this season. Might as well come back completley healthy and prove he's quicker than this. Even if he doesn't progress he still probably goes top 30-40 next year since stretch mismatch 4s can usually a guarantee to get role player minutes in the NBA and that's what teams want out of a pick from the late 1st round on

[Kevin Willis]

What makes Barnes that much a greater prospect than Lamb, Ross and MKG. He's a great player. He doesn't have the IT factor more than those others. I do think he's a better player but really is he that much better? I would say no and losing Barnes would not be a huge drop-off with the other players.

What "it" factor? He steps up in the 2nd half of games and makes clutch shots. Does he have to turn water into wine? Jeez...

All of them step up when needed. That's common between them. But some players are special in terms of mindset/cockiness. Rivers has it. Even Wroten has it. Playing good for one half doesn't mean he has something more than the others, just that he's inconsistent.

For instance Terrence Jones doesn't have it, he dissappears while MKG does not. Harden always had it more than his peers. I'm saying he doesn't have anything the others do not have.

[Dr Positivity]

I just thought of another excellent comparison for Q Miller: Tank Commandant Kleiza. And that's if he can really play SF

He's definitely a PF in the NBA. Probably a pretty decent one too and worth a top 14 pick. But if he's at the PF position he's behind a longggg list of pretty good prospects

Why say he is a PF? He has played more SF, he has the 3point shot, he has good handles, he has the size of a big SF. Is there a reason to say he projects at PF?

Weak ballhandling, shooting and lateral quickness indicates a player who'd fit more as a small, quick PF than a big SF. Size at SF helps if you're a skilled enough player to nail those jumpshots over your defender, or explosive enough to still get by your man. I don't see that in T Jones. You can get a lot more offensively out of him as a PF who can blow by his man and has a ballhandling advantage over most bigs, than as a SF who's bigger and stronger than his opponents but not good enough to do much with it other than jack up shots

He reminds me a lot of a dumber Derrick Williams, who I don't think has any chance to play SF long term in the NBA judging on his play so far. Williams is neither quick/explosive enough or skilled enough on the ball to be a 3 in the NBA offensively, and that's not considering the defensive atrocity he'd unleash on his team if they tried him there

In particular on our team T Jones would be a weak fit at SF because both he and Demar would be bad 3pt shooters and not guys you want dribbling the ball and running the offense.

I like him with a second pick (12+) - But as a BPA, we know this guy is a PF and we don't care, pick

[Marlo Stanfield]

What makes Barnes that much a greater prospect than Lamb, Ross and MKG. He's a great player. He doesn't have the IT factor more than those others. I do think he's a better player but really is he that much better? I would say no and losing Barnes would not be a huge drop-off with the other players.

What "it" factor? He steps up in the 2nd half of games and makes clutch shots. Does he have to turn water into wine? Jeez...

All of them step up when needed. That's common between them. But some players are special in terms of mindset/cockiness. Rivers has it. Even Wroten has it. Playing good for one half doesn't mean he has something more than the others, just that he's inconsistent.

For instance Terrence Jones doesn't have it, he dissappears while MKG does not. Harden always had it more than his peers. I'm saying he doesn't have anything the others do not have.

Being a silent killer is not a bad thing.... Barnes is EASILY better than both Rivers and Wroten.

[Dr Positivity]

Following up on the Q Mill "take a risk with talent" point Rapsfan07 made - Interesting how everyone has agreed for years that we should be rolling the dice with superstar talents instead of making the safe pick, but as soon as PJIII gets mentioned it's like people had Ipecac in their coffee - and Drummond is working his way up to that level - and the definition of the safe pick HBo is the most popular player here just as Kemba Walker was last year

We can all talk the talk, but who's willing to walk the walk with the risky all-star talent strategy?

Join the PJIII bandwagon. It's a quiet, awkward place where I'm trying to keep conversation with Steely Reserve while he plays some Norwegian death music, I think he might knife me if more people don't join this party soon

[Marlo Stanfield]

Following up on the Q Mill "take a risk with talent" point Rapsfan07 made - Interesting how everyone has agreed for years that we should be rolling the dice with superstar talents instead of making the safe pick, but as soon as PJIII gets mentioned it's like people had Ipecac in their coffee - and Drummond is working his way up to that level - and the definition of the safe pick HBo is the most popular player here just as Kemba Walker was last year

We can all talk the talk, but who's willing to walk the walk with the risky all-star talent strategy?

Join the PJIII bandwagon. It's a quiet, awkward place where I'm trying to keep conversation with Steely Reserve while he plays some Norwegian death music, I think he might knife me if more people don't join this party soon

I'll never join that bandwagon, there's a creepy homererotic feel to it...

[ATLTimekeeper]

I think PJIII is probably as safe a pick as Barnes, it's just that no one believes he has the brain and heart to fulfil his massive potential. Barnes definitely has some warts, but I don't know why he's considered to have a low-ceiling.

There always has to be rationality to risk/reward picks. For instance, no one was going to pick Hassan Whiteside with the first overall pick. Just like James Harden was always a better pick than Hasheem Thabeet.

[Consequence]

I really want to be on the PJIII wagon, but I just don't get to see him display enough perimeter skills to stay on board. Every time I watch him, he posts up instead of trying to take his man off the dribble or move from the triple threat or something.

[FluLikeSymptoms]

Whenever I watch Baylor play, Q looks like the better prospect to me than Perry and a much better shot to be an offensive hub in the NBA. I think he's much more relaxed and confident with the ball and he can still help when his shot isn't falling- not so with PJ3. Better defender and more consistently active on the boards.

I still think the lack of explosion could be at least partly chalked up to lack of trust in his knee. I've actually seen him take off uncharacteristically quickly from the FT line and get to the rim a couple times, think one was against Texas, there is more pop than he typically shows. Enough pop, IMO.

The key with him will be giving him the ball one or two dribbles from the rim unless it's for a spot-up 3 He's not a wing iso player. Still think using him like a young Pierce would work out really, really well and it has worked when Baylor has done so. He's crafty.

[dTox]

What makes Barnes that much a greater prospect than Lamb, Ross and MKG. He's a great player. He doesn't have the IT factor more than those others. I do think he's a better player but really is he that much better? I would say no and losing Barnes would not be a huge drop-off with the other players.

What "it" factor? He steps up in the 2nd half of games and makes clutch shots. Does he have to turn water into wine? Jeez...

All of them step up when needed. That's common between them. But some players are special in terms of mindset/cockiness. Rivers has it. Even Wroten has it. Playing good for one half doesn't mean he has something more than the others, just that he's inconsistent.

For instance Terrence Jones doesn't have it, he dissappears while MKG does not. Harden always had it more than his peers. I'm saying he doesn't have anything the others do not have.

How in the world can Rivers have "it" and not Barnes? Was it because of the NC vs Duke game last week? Barnes has been much more clutch and delivers more ppg in the 2nd half of games, the only reason you may think Barnes might not be clutch is due to the fact that NC always blows out teams as opposed to Duke who keeps their margin of victory closer.

[Undefeated]

My only concern with Barnes is his playmaking ability, but otherwise, there’s no reason to doubt his ability to create off the dribble. The reason Barnes plays off-the-ball is because it’s a product of Roy Williams’ double-post motion offense which focuses on feeding the bigs touches and the wings have to always move. The wing player should only dribble the ball to a) drive to the basket when the middle has a clear path, b) improve passing angles or c) to get out of trouble. Also, it doesn’t help that the paint is clogged at the collegiate level which makes dribble-penetration one-on-one even harder. I think it should be easier for Barnes to slash once he gets to the NBA.

Everyone runs pick-and-rolls in the NBA, and since Barnes’ strength is going away from the screen from the angle pick-and-roll, he’s going to have an immediate impact. Go under the screen, Barnes will knock down the jumper. Go over, he’ll turn the corner and blow by. He’s already good a protecting the ball dribbling through heavy traffic, and with more room in the paint, it’s going to be easier for him to score at the rim.

[Kabookalu]

Following up on the Q Mill "take a risk with talent" point Rapsfan07 made - Interesting how everyone has agreed for years that we should be rolling the dice with superstar talents instead of making the safe pick, but as soon as PJIII gets mentioned it's like people had Ipecac in their coffee - and Drummond is working his way up to that level - and the definition of the safe pick HBo is the most popular player here just as Kemba Walker was last year

We can all talk the talk, but who's willing to walk the walk with the risky all-star talent strategy?

Join the PJIII bandwagon. It's a quiet, awkward place where I'm trying to keep conversation with Steely Reserve while he plays some Norwegian death music, I think he might knife me if more people don't join this party soon

He has the talent and physical tools to be a superstar but not the mentality. It's as simple as that. I see his ceiling as Lamar Odom, which is an excellent player to have, but not one you can depend on.

[gojoorange]

What makes Barnes that much a greater prospect than Lamb, Ross and MKG. He's a great player. He doesn't have the IT factor more than those others. I do think he's a better player but really is he that much better? I would say no and losing Barnes would not be a huge drop-off with the other players.

How in the world can Rivers have "it" and not Barnes? Was it because of the NC vs Duke game last week? Barnes has been much more clutch and delivers more ppg in the 2nd half of games, the only reason you may think Barnes might not be clutch is due to the fact that NC always blows out teams as opposed to Duke who keeps their margin of victory closer.

I actually see where he's coming from. Our current roster really lacks a guy with that competitive fire, and the sort of unwillingness to lose games. I believe the last player we had with that sort of drive was TJ Ford. He just had a competitive side that would really help us win games. I think our roster really needs a player with that sort of drive, and honestly outside of Anthony Davis I think our best shot at getting a player with this sort of competitiveness is either Beal or Rivers. Luckily, I think Jonas will add a little bit of confidence to the roster as well which will help. But I really think this team needs a leader, and a guy that will not accept losing, which in my opinion, is either Davis, Beal, or Rivers.

What do you guys think?

[Marlo Stanfield]

Following up on the Q Mill "take a risk with talent" point Rapsfan07 made - Interesting how everyone has agreed for years that we should be rolling the dice with superstar talents instead of making the safe pick, but as soon as PJIII gets mentioned it's like people had Ipecac in their coffee - and Drummond is working his way up to that level - and the definition of the safe pick HBo is the most popular player here just as Kemba Walker was last year

We can all talk the talk, but who's willing to walk the walk with the risky all-star talent strategy?

Join the PJIII bandwagon. It's a quiet, awkward place where I'm trying to keep conversation with Steely Reserve while he plays some Norwegian death music, I think he might knife me if more people don't join this party soon

He has the talent and physical tools to be a superstar but not the mentality. It's as simple as that. I see his ceiling as Lamar Odom, which is an excellent player to have, but not one you can depend on.

In the potential world Perry Jones puts up Josh Smith beast night stats on a regular basis like 20pts/10rebs/5assists/2steals/3blocks, but in reality he'll probably be a 15pts/5rebs/3assists/1steal/1block type of guy. Mediocre...