David Robinson: Defensive GOAT

[bastillon]

I think Pippen should've been DPOY that year. anchored #2 defense in the league without any noted defensive talent on the roster.

Haha, yeah, the Bulls lucked out to play better defense in those 10 games than expected, because they had no "noted defensive talent" on the roster. Seriously, it is getting insane here. The Bulls were a really good defensive team without Pippen, maybe you should accept that fact before making such claims. No, Pippen was NOT the DPOY in 1994.

I'm talking about 95 Bulls. they were #2 defense without Grant. who were those "talented" teammates ?

[Doctor MJ]

Great thread. Going to dig in further, and I doubt I'll agree with the OP, but he's in particular has given us some fantastic info to ponder.

[mysticbb]

how do you calculate SOS then ?

Average SRS of the opponents plus adjustment for home/road games. Average HCA is 3.2 (different analyses showed 2.8 to 3.6 as HCA, I would recommened using the average, Vegas is using 3).

Paul Pressey 1989
in 109.9 / 104.3 (62g)
out 105.8 / 108.5 (20g)

in +5.6
out -2.7

that's +8.3 to 5.6
he played 5 games off the bench which I didn't count. he was probably at half speed anyway. I don't even know which games those were etc.

Wow, I had something else in my mind. The Bucks played really 5.3 points worse on defense, if we also exclude the games in which Pressey came from the bench and adjust for pace and opponents. They played better in those games with Pressey coming off the bench than in the games completely without Pressey.

[tsherkin]

Well here is game 2 I put up

Again, though, what you're seeing here is one player at his absolute peak, playing out of his mind in the face of a perceived snub and absolutely undressing another player's D individually. Consider that one of Hakeem's favorite moves is a turnaround fade; you can't actually guard that shot with any serious degree of consistency; the horizontal separation a player gets on that shot makes it basically impossible to guard without fouling. You see it with Dirk, you saw it with Jordan, when you master that shot, especially given the percentages those guys hit it at inside of 17 feet, a defender can only do so much. Nevermind that Hakeem tended to put you off-balance with a host of other moves and literally had an option no matter what the defender did.

You can't put all of that on Robinson.

[lorak]

MOV+SOS

Formulas?

[Doctor MJ]

89: Year before Robinson; 21-61, -7.45 SRS, 107.9 D rating (+0.1 relative to League average), 13th
The Spurs had the All-defensive team Alvin Robertson who won the DPOY just a few years earlier

90: Robinson Rookie; 56-26 (+35 wins), 3.58 SRS (11.03 SRS turnaround, 2nd best in history), 104.2 D rating (-3.9 LA, 4.0 turnaround relative to LA), 3rd
Robinson’s stats: 96.8 D rating (2nd), 7.2 DWS (2nd), 3.9 Blks (3rd), 5th in WS/48

The Spurs lose all-defensive team Alvin Robertson. Add Robinson, Cummings and Elliot but only Robinson is the one with a defensive reputation. This is the biggest turnaround in NBA history at the time

You're saying a 4.0 turnaround relative to LA was the biggest in history at the time? That's kind of amazing. I'd love to see your lists on this.

I can tell you that ElGee's estimates put Russell's arrival in Boston at a 6+ defensive turnaround in a league where the previous year the total range of defense varied less than 6 points. Whereas in Robinson's rookie year the range was over 10 points, which would imply that if there were no factors other than those two players, Robinson was having an impact that could lift the team up a bit less than halfway up the league's defensive ladder while Russell could literally make the worst team the best on defense. So obviously that implies an edge to Russell there even if it is clearly not complete enough to take too seriously.

I can tell you that when Russell retires we see another 6+ defensive turnaround relative to league average in the other direction, though now in a league with a defensive range more like Robinson's era, so by that point Russell was certainly not a worst-to-first guy.

I can also tell you that in that same year ('69-70), the Knicks saw an improvement of just over 4 on defense relative to the league average. And that in '70-71, the Bucks saw a raw defensive improvement of 5.5 (ElGee didn't do a league average this time so I don't know).

Also of note, the '71-72 Colonels of the ABA, who showed a defensive eFG shift of 0.24 which is slightly more than the '89-90 Spurs (0.23).

But I don't say this stuff to say "Gotcha!". Your assertion is clearly too bold, but it's not exactly easy to get all this data, and if those Spurs truly had the biggest DRtg turnaround b-r had posted to that point, that's good to know.

His first 1st place finish

92: 47-35, 2.81 SRS, 104.1 D rating (-4.1 LA), 1st , DPOY
DRob: 94.1 D rating (1st), 6.9 DWS (3rd , would finish 1st if he was healthy), 4.5 BLK (1st), 2nd in WS/48, 2.3 Steals per game (5th)

The 1st place D rating is amazing considering Robinson missed the last 14 games and playoffs. They finished 1st despite collapsing without him. This season might be Robinson’s best GOAT defensive case.

-68 G played: 102.6 D rating, 70.4 Dreb%, .512 TS%, +4.7 MOV
-14 G missed: 111.6 D rating (-9 D rating drop), 65.6 Dreb%, .534 TS% (2.2 TS% drop), -3.3 MOV (+8 with Robinson than without)
+9 D rating difference, -4.8 Dreb%, +2.2 TS%, +8 MOV
-Playoffs w/o Drob: 119.6 D rating, 63.2 Dreb%, .578 TS%, -9 MOV

As you can see, the team collapsed massively with almost all of it due to the team’s defense. The team went from -6.6 from the league average (this year’s Bulls level) with Robinson to being +3.4 from the league average which is 2nd to last. So Robinson was the difference between a dominant #1 finish and the 2nd worst defense in the league

Gotta be really careful here. Teams can easily coast down the stretch, and a 3-game sample size from the playoffs is sooo small.

That playoff series was against the offensively excellent Suns, who had done quite well against the Spurs in the regular season even when Robinson was in there (the Spurs had a -6 MOV in those 3 games, and yes I feel weird using "MOV in those 3 games").

1997: 20-62 (39 win drop), -7.93 SRS (13.91 SRS drop), 112.3 D rating (+5.8 LA), 29th (last)
This is one of the biggest declines in NBA history. The team dropped 9.9 D rating points relative to the league.

This is definitely something to bring up here, and it along with the next thing really hammer in the implication that Robinson might have been a +/- force for the ages.

1998: 56-26 (36 wins turnaround), 3.30 SRS (11.23 SRS turnaround), 99.4 D rating (-5.6 LA) (+12.9 D rating turnaround), 2nd
DRob: 93.6 D rating, 6.0 DWS (2nd), 2.6 BLK (5th), 1st in WS/48

Robinson engineers arguably the greatest Defensive turnaround in NBA history. The Spurs go from 3rd to last, to 2nd in D rating. A 13 D rating impact is absolutely ridiculous. That’s like the difference between the best defense and the Raptors. Robinson’s defense gets even better after his injury. Robinson missed 9 games and his impact did show.

With Robinson: 98.8 D rating, .480 TS%, 4.37 MOV
W/O Robinson: 103.9 D rating, .509 TS%, 0.89 MOV
Difference: +5.1 D rating, +2.9 TS%, +3.48 MOV

This whole thing should be used to argue for Robinson, but the way you've presented causes me to rebut.

You're saying he led a 13 point defensive impact, and then backing that up with specific in/outs that show him with a 5 point defensive impact. How is it not a salient point that there is an 8 point difference between those two impacts?

While we're at it, how is it not worth mentioning that Robinson didn't lead the team in blocks or rebounds that year, and that the guy who did would become the head of the greatest defensive dynasty in history since Bill Russell?

I mean, those facts aren't necessary when simply saying Robinson was good at defense, but when you're arguing him as Defensive GOAT, and the most amazing fact in his entire career really appears to imply that he may not have been the best defender on his team, this is a problem.

[Doctor MJ]

This was one hell of a useful collection of posts bast.

excellent post though I think that should be also brought up:

What about a contemporary of Hakeem though, that isn't considered to have great defensive help or coaching, David Robinson? He anchored better defenses than Hakeem did.

And Duncan's anchored elite defenses year after year, sometimes without great defensive help (although he's always had a great coach in Popovich, true).

I get what you're saying, that no one guy can really guarantee an elite defense, but it seems that Duncan and Robinson did that moreso than Hakeem did. They didn't have great defensive players around them at times either, but their defenses were better.

I might be looking at this too much from a team angle though, and not enough from an individual one.

I think you overlooked several factors. coaching is extremely important from the standpoint of team defense. you think OKC would have #20 defense in the league with Pat Riley or Phil Jackson ? Popovich is THE coach when talking about defense. he was one of the first to acknowledge the importance of sacrificing midrange defense for paint defense (Spurs D always gave up the most midrange 2s in the league), he was a guy who discovered Bowen, who made Tony Parker into a reasonably good team defender etc.

Larry Brown is another guy who comes to mind as all-time great defensive coach. recently I've come to realization that coach of that caliber can be nearly as effective as defensive anchor. if you look at Larry's history you'll notice teams always played great D. just looking at the 90s Spurs... they were tanking in 89 but still played avg defense. then added D-Rob and Cummings in 90, their defense improved to 3rd in the league. then 1st in 91, 1st in 92, but only one top3 finish in 93-96. so what happened in 93 ? Larry Brown left the team. Spurs defense was still great but clearly fell level below... and that's despite Rodman on the team in 94-95. at the time Larry Brown became Clippers coach and they also became much better defense. then he became Pacers head coach and they went from being one of the worst defensive teams in the league, to one of the best defenses in the league. meanwhile Clippers fell off a cliff after Brown left the team. then he became Philly's head coach and they also went on to produce top5 defenses year in year out. and we already know what happened in 04-05... best defensive team ever.

so comparing D-Rob's record without Larry to Hakeem's record... pretty close. always top10 defense, but never the best in the league. 10th in 93, 9th in 94, 5th in 95, 3rd in 96. that doesn't really seperate Robinson from Olajuwon at all. pretty much the only time Olajuwon didn't anchor top5 defense was in 92 and Rockets defense without Hakeem gave up like 10 pts more per game.

give Hakeem all time great defensive coach and reasonably good defensive personnel and you'll see him anchor dominant defenses too.

as well as this:

Admiral vs. Dream on Defense

I'm too young to have seen them play at their primes but it seems like everyone chooses Dream over Admiral on D as well. I understand that Hakeem roasted Robinson in the WCF and that that was a legacy making series that in some ways defined both their careers. I understand that Hakeem's complete offensive repertoire, while less efficient than D-Rob's attacking and jumpshooting style, translated better in the slowed down tougher playoffs environment.

But was Hakeem really the better defender? What exactly was the difference between the two as defenders? From 90-95 when they both played in the league and were roughly at their defensive primes, these are the numbers they posted...

Code: Select all

HO: 12.6 RPG, 4.0 BPG, 1.9 SPG, 3.7 PFG, 6.4 BLK%, 2.4 STL%, 41.6 DWS
DR: 11.7 RPG, 3.7 BPG, 1.7 SPG, 3.0 PFG, 6.0 BLK%, 2.3 STL%, 41.5 DWS

Both of them were anchoring great defenses during this time as well, with the Spurs posting a 104.7 DRtg (2nd in the league) and Rockets posting a 104.9 DRtg (3rd) over this span. I really don't see much of a difference at all here based on the team results and individual numbers.

Actually the biggest thing I see is that while Hakeem was slightly more active in terms of creating turnovers, he was more foul prone as well. 3.7 PF vs. 3.0 PF seems to be the only significant difference.

5.9 S+B/3.7 PF
5.4 S+B/3.0 PF

Hakeem definitely got into more foul trouble than Robinson. Why was this? Did the Admiral’s superior run and jump ability help him in this regard vs. Hakeem?

Also for those who watched them play, was Hakeem really a better low post man defender? I know both of these guys were good but it seems like people treat it as a fact that Hakeem was the superior man defender. They don’t even give examples and explanations, “Hakeem was the better man defender” is all they say without further comments.

From the videos I’ve watched it does appear that Hakeem had the stronger base, and his body is clearly wider than Robinson’s (clearly seen when they match up). And his longer arms do seem to make up for the slight height disadvantage vs. Robinson.

But was Hakeem really a better overall defender? Both of them anchored similarly dominant defenses, both of them posted eerily similar defensive numbers, both of them won DPOY’s and were recognized as tremendous defenders. So what gives? Why is Hakeem considered the better defender than Robinson by 90% of this board? I 100% agree that Hakeem was the better player because I prefer his offensive style, but I really can’t find a discernable difference in their defense. So can someone who watched them both play on D and has something to say other than “trust me” tell me why Hakeem was a better defender than Robinson?

I think Dream was a better overall defender although they're on the same platform. I'll quote a post where I broke down Dream's defense that you might be interested in.

Hakeem is most likely the greatest defender I've seen (1990/91-present).

Taking accomplishments into account, he has 2 Defensive Player of the Year awards and should've probably won more in retrospect. I don't see how one can make a great case for Rodman's selection in 1990. Yes, Rodman was a better man defender than Hakeem when locked in but he doesn't come close to providing the overall impact Dream did. Not to mention, Rodman was only playing 29.0 minutes per game compared to Hakeem's 38.3 which suggests that Dream was having more impact just by the virtue of staying in the game longer.

Now that statistics like DRtg are available, we can analyze and measure the impact these two had. Detroit, despite having better defenders around Rodman, posted a lower DRtg than Houston. Dream had the Rockets as #1 in the league and was far and away the best defensive player on the team. Buck Johnson was solid; great man defender but he couldn't dream (no pun intended) of matching Dream's impact. I don't use numbers to measure a player's defender but Hakeem's numbers that year (14.0 rpg/2.1 spg/4.6 bpg) make a good case in my book. He also finished runner up in Defensive Player of the Year voting in 1989 (would've won by one more vote) and 1990. Made 5 all-defensive first teams in his career, 9 in total.

As for his defense, I can mostly comment on post-1990 but he seemed to have some flaws early on in his career. He was a bit too aggressive which led to gambling, went for pumpfakes a bit too much and didn't seem as strong as he did in the early 1990s which is when he started lifting weight from what I remember. I think his defense peaked in the early 1990s around the time he won his first DPOY award. Around that time, he had significantly toned down his aggression, decreased the gambling and didn't get into foul trouble as much. Man defense was also great which is evident in the 1993 series with Seattle and the 1994 finals with New York.

He shut down the interior along with setting a record for blocked shots in a seven game series in the 1993 Western Conference Semi-finals. Dream also shut down Kemp limiting his penetration a bit and swatted away anything around the rim. Great help defense in this series. 1994 finals, he held Patrick Ewing to 36% shooting from the field. Did this by pushing him away from the basket and make him shoot turnaround jumpshots. His relatively low rebounding numbers are explained by him battling with Patrick outside the paint. Otis Thorpe picked up the slack in Dream's absence.

I would put guys like David Robinson, Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan on his level but would hesitate taking any of them before the Dream. Mostly because Admiral, while a great weakside shot blocker and interior defender, wasn't as good as a man defender. I also want to know how much of that great early 1990s Spurs defense is influenced by Larry Brown's defensive schemes and Admiral's defense. No doubt Admiral was a terrific defender and rightfully won a DPOY award but the Spurs DRtg took a hit in the 1992-93 season (first full year without LB) and this was with Admiral playing all 82 games. Their DRtg in 1994, 1995 and 1996 isn't as good, relative to league average, either. By no means am I implying Robinson didn't have a huge impact and he did because the Spurs were horrible without him when he went down late in the 1991-92 season but it does generate some food for thought.

Dream has a greater impact than Duncan on the defensive end due to his major edge in athleticism which is something Mario Elie commented on when comparing the two players. Garnett is a very good defender and better on the defensive glass but he doesn't have Dream's overall impact due to Dream being a greater paint defender and shot blocking threat. It's all subjective, though.

To give more examples of Hakeem's jaw-dropping defense, I'd point to the 1986 finals like bastillon mentioned. Parish couldn't manage anything against him. One thing I didn't talk about was his versatility as a defender. His determination in running the floor, protecting the basket and not giving up on any play. You should check out that chasedown block (all the way from halfcourt) he had on Rod Strickland in the 1994 playoffs. Just mind-boggling quickness and recovery time. He also had one on K.J. with K.J. falling flat on his arse. I've seen him guard power forwards as well. For reference, see his stellar defense on Karl Malone in game 4 of the 1994 Western Conference Semi finals. Otis Thorpe was in foul trouble and Dream got the job of checking Malone in the second half if I'm not mistaken. He shut Karl down and helped the Rockets take a big lead. It's the infamous game where the Utah time keeper doesn't start the clock. He also checked Barkley for stretches in the 1994 and 1995 conference semis and held his own. The thing about his defense was that he didn't let anyone get anything going inside. I remember being astonished at how Cedric Ceballos, the snake (great nose for the ball, terrific rebounder), couldn't finish around the basket because of Dream's presence. Most of the points he got that series were with Hakeem coming over to help on penetration. We had to take him out of games 6 and 7 and start AC Green although some of it had to do with the defensive mismatches we had (Thorpe posting up Chuck, Dream beasting etc).

I remember the start of the 1994-95 season. Rockets got off to a 9-0 start with Hakeem being a strong MVP candidate. There was a game against the Pacers where Dream absolutely annihilated Rik Smits by holding him to 1/11 shooting while putting up a 43 pts/16 reb/8 blks statline. Couple of games later, he took a dump on the Nets with 31 pts/10 reb/5 stl/5 blk and holding Derrick Coleman (back when he actually gave a F) to 1/15 from the field.

Just incredible all-around play. As for Admiral's defense, it was great but a couple of things stick out. How much of the early 1990s Spurs DRtg is influenced by Larry Brown's defensive schemes? And Hakeem having the series of his career against Robinson kind of sticks out here. I thought he could be taken one-on-one. He didn't seem as psychologically dominating/intimidating either, contrary to what his numbers imply. I'd point to the 1994 playoffs, here. Karl Malone had a greater impact on both offense and defense. I don't remember this series very well but I do remember the Jazz switching match ups by putting Karl on David and roughing him up. It proved to be successful as David was held to 41% shooting. Karl, meanwhile, beasted in the series with the Rodman/Robinson duo being unable to stop him. I'm not sure how much Robinson guarded Karl but it's a negative either way. Either he didn't step up to the challenge and guard Karl or he was unable to keep Malone from going off.

That said, I do think Robinson gets underrated due to his playoff failures. He was a great player; terrific on defense (weakside shot blocking, help defense, versatility). There's a game where he had 8 blks against MJ and the Bulls and along with Hakeem, he was the best center at getting those chasedown blocks.

Man defense seems to be the reason why people rate Hakeem above Robinson on defense. I don’t know if this is the truth or a copout response that is used because it’s hard to prove one way or the other. So I tried my best to answer my own question here.

From 1990-95 these were the top 8 scoring Centers in the NBA who played more than 200 games during this span (Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Alonzo, Daugherty, Seikaly, and Smits). These are some of their offensive numbers…

Code: Select all

SO: 27.3 PPG, .583 FG%, 3.0 TOV, 38.2 MPG
DR: 25.7 PPG, .527 FG%, 3.0 TOV, 38.3 MPG
PE: 25.3 PPG, .515 FG%, 3.2 TOV, 37.8 MPG
HO: 24.9 PPG, .515 FG%, 3.3 TOV, 38.9 MPG
AM: 21.3 PPG, .512 FG%, 3.1 TOV, 35.4 MPG
BD: 19.9 PPG, .535 FG%, 2.5 TOV, 37.2 MPG
SE: 15.9 PPG, .490 FG%, 2.9 TOV, 33.5 MPG (Seikaly)
SM: 14.7 PPG, .514 FG%, 1.8 TOV, 26.5 MPG (Smits)

These were the NBA Centers who played big minutes and were bigtime scoring options for their teams during 1990-95. So I took a look at both Hakeem and Robinson’s h2h numbers against these players during 90-95 to see how much they limited them.

Vs. Admiral / Vs. Dream
SO: 25.2 PPG -- .513 FG% -- 4.0 TOV -- 38.3 MPG (6 G)
SO: 20.7 PPG -- .557 FG% -- 2.8 TOV -- 40.3 MPG (6 G)
PE: 23.0 PPG -- .456 FG% -- 3.9 TOV -- 38.1 MPG (11 G)
PE: 24.1 PPG -- .441 FG% -- 3.1 TOV -- 38.6 MPG (12 G)
AM: 18.7 PPG -- .463 FG% -- 2.7 TOV -- 34.2 MPG (6 G)
AM: 15.0 PPG -- .464 FG% -- 4.6 TOV -- 36.2 MPG (5 G)
BD: 19.2 PPG -- .566 FG% -- 3.0 TOV -- 33.5 MPG (6 G)
BD: 14.4 PPG -- .509 FG% -- 1.8 TOV -- 34.2 MPG (5 G)
SE: 17.7 PPG -- .489 FG% -- 2.3 TOV -- 33.9 MPG (10 G)
SE: 13.3 PPG -- .487 FG% -- 3.7 TOV -- 33.4 MPG (11 G)
SM: 13.5 PPG -- .493 FG% -- 1.3 TOV -- 26.0 MPG (12 G)
SM: 10.7 PPG -- .516 FG% -- 2.0 TOV -- 23.1 MPG (10 G)

So what do you guys think about those numbers? Obviously this isn’t a perfect method as this doesn’t account for a whole bunch of things. There’s no such thing as one on one in the NBA, so any stats in an individual head to head matchup should be taken with a grain of salt. But if there is one position in the NBA where h2h stats have the most to do with individual play, it would be the Center position. We know that Hakeem and D-Rob guarded Centers 90% of the time, and we know that they were good enough to guard them in single coverage pretty much all the time as well (outside of Shaq and each other at times). So I think it is reasonable to assume that the numbers these opposing big men posted were primarily when they were being defended by Dream and Admiral. On to the actual results…

Looking at these numbers from these opposing bigs, the one thing that does jump out at you is the PPG they averaged. Outside of Ewing, every other big scored way less against Hakeem than they did Robinson. The FG%, TOV’s, and MP are roughly identical but Hakeem seems to have definitely had a greater impact on volume scoring than Robinson did. Could this be because of better general team defense, or did Hakeem just make it harder to get good looks inside? Despite D-Rob’s cartoon-like upper body, Hakeem did have the greater base strength based on his wider body and stronger legs, maybe this allowed him to keep the deep low post position easier than Robinson. No matter what the reason was, it’s a fact that opposing volume scoring centers found it easier to score in volume against Robinson. Here are the total numbers of these guys vs. Robinson and Hakeem without taking into account the individual games played (for example Shaq’s 6 G count the same as Ewing’s 11). And the total numbers of these 6 players vs. the entire league using the same method…

Vs. Admiral / Vs. Dream / Vs. NBA
20.7 PPG, .525 FG%, 2.8 TOV, 34.8 MPG
19.6 PPG, .497 FG%, 2.9 TOV, 34.0 MPG
16.4 PPG .496 FG%, 3.0 TOV, 34.3 MPG

So while these numbers suggest that Hakeem was a better man defender, it also suggests that the Admiral wasn’t far off. Sure the difference in volume scoring is notable, but Robinson held opponents to the same FG% and forced them into the same amount of turnovers. And like I mentioned above, he held Hakeem to a low FG% in h2h matchups as well. So I think it’s pretty obvious that Robinson was at the very least a very good individual man defender. But I think based on these stats and the video I’ve seen, Hakeem’s man defense was slightly better. And I think this also gives Hakeem the edge when it comes to who the better overall defender was.

[colts18]

I didn't say it was one of the biggest defensive turnarounds, it was one of the biggest overall turnarounds based on wins and SRS. Robinson was responsible for the 2 biggest turnarounds in history at the time (90 and 98). Though the celtics surpassed them since.

[Doctor MJ]

I didn't say it was one of the biggest defensive turnarounds, it was one of the biggest overall turnarounds based on wins and SRS. Robinson was responsible for the 2 biggest turnarounds in history at the time (90 and 98). Though the celtics surpassed them since.

By my list, the '89 Suns and '80 Celtics surpassed them also - but this doesn't really undermine your basic point. Robinson is the turnaround king.

[tsherkin]

I didn't say it was one of the biggest defensive turnarounds, it was one of the biggest overall turnarounds based on wins and SRS. Robinson was responsible for the 2 biggest turnarounds in history at the time (90 and 98). Though the celtics surpassed them since.

His point wasn't related to 1990, it was related to the 97-98 season and the elephant in the room you're ignoring. Rookie Duncan was basically matching Robinson's defensive rebounding rate while playing 6 more minutes per game and otherwise playing the brand of defense we'd come to expect from him over the following decade. Given his presence, it is impossible for anyone to credit Robinson fully for that turnaround. Having ANOTHER 21/10+/2.5+ player who plays elite frontcourt defense sort of changes the picture.

[Dr Pepper]

D-Rob, in general, has been pretty underrated since his retirement and his defense was great. Before entering the league, D-Rob was being compared to Bill Russell and had MJ-like athleticism for a 7 footer. Against Hakeem, I blame the Spurs coaching and gameplan moreson than D-Rob. IIRC they just single covered Hakeem or doubled him late, which just wasn't going to work.

OP's got some solid stuff and I tend to agree as imo D-Rob had some of the best prime/peaks for a NBA player. He was like a stronger and more athletic KG except also a master at shotblocking

Also agree with Tyler though, having the GOAT PF in Duncan helped greatly in that turnaround circa 98

[colts18]

I didn't say it was one of the biggest defensive turnarounds, it was one of the biggest overall turnarounds based on wins and SRS. Robinson was responsible for the 2 biggest turnarounds in history at the time (90 and 98). Though the celtics surpassed them since.

By my list, the '89 Suns and '80 Celtics surpassed them also - but this doesn't really undermine your basic point. Robinson is the turnaround king.

That;s based on SRS. According to some internet blog post, Robinson was responsible for the #5 and #6 turnarounds based on SRS.

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/01/08 ... s-coaches/

But according to wins, Robinson's 36 and 35 win turnarounds were 2nd and 3rd best in history

[magicman1978]

That;s based on SRS. According to some internet blog post, Robinson was responsible for the #5 and #6 turnarounds based on SRS.

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/01/08 ... s-coaches/

But according to wins, Robinson's 36 and 35 win turnarounds were 2nd and 3rd best in history

Isn't that Doctor MJ's blog?

[tsherkin]

Isn't that Doctor MJ's blog?

*inserts requisite sass*

Robinson was a really great player. I think we really need to define the full meaning of "defensive GOAT" though, before any productive discussion develops.

[colts18]

Isn't that Doctor MJ's blog?

*inserts requisite sass*

Robinson was a really great player. I think we really need to define the full meaning of "defensive GOAT" though, before any productive discussion develops.

We should have a RealGM top 100 list for defensive players, but only like the top 20-25 so people won't get uninterested.

[tsherkin]

We should have a RealGM top 100 list for defensive players, but only like the top 20-25 so people won't get uninterested.

bast has been trying to get something like that in motion since b-r dropped Play-Index+.

I'd do it, especially if it focused on only 20 people or so. But again, there would have to be explicit definitions in place, answers to all the usual questions (or rather, exclusions or specific contexts, etc).

A vague "who was the best" would only be useful in-era. We could do it by decade, though, that'd work. Top 5 each decade over the last 40 years?

[Doctor MJ]

I didn't say it was one of the biggest defensive turnarounds, it was one of the biggest overall turnarounds based on wins and SRS. Robinson was responsible for the 2 biggest turnarounds in history at the time (90 and 98). Though the celtics surpassed them since.

By my list, the '89 Suns and '80 Celtics surpassed them also - but this doesn't really undermine your basic point. Robinson is the turnaround king.

That;s based on SRS. According to some internet blog post...

Best not to take it too seriously then, eh?

[Doctor MJ]

I think we really need to define the full meaning of "defensive GOAT" though, before any productive discussion develops.

What specific concerns do you have? To me the key thing is the idea that a player's defensive focus may wax and wane over his career for totally valid reasons, and so one might prefer to talk about peak defensive GOAT as opposed to career defensive GOAT.

[tsherkin]

What specific concerns do you have? To me the key thing is the idea that a player's defensive focus may wax and wane over his career for totally valid reasons, and so one might prefer to talk about peak defensive GOAT as opposed to career defensive GOAT.

Well, what's more important? Impact relative to era? Because the rules and quality/style of the game are very different.

How important is innovation? Russell would lose a lot of overall efficacy and importance in the modern era because of the 3pt line and because he kind of set the mold for the idea of the shot-blocking defensive center. Scouting techniques, video access, etc, etc. Lots of stuff has changed. His teams rate out as really great defensively, but how do rank that kind of player against someone like Olajuwon, or Robinson, etc, etc?

Then what about teammates and coaching and separate that out? Is that even possible?

It's all those little details. When you include players from different eras, all the minutiae can be pivot points around which the entire argument swings.

[Doctor MJ]

We should have a RealGM top 100 list for defensive players, but only like the top 20-25 so people won't get uninterested.

bast has been trying to get something like that in motion since b-r dropped Play-Index+.

I'd do it, especially if it focused on only 20 people or so. But again, there would have to be explicit definitions in place, answers to all the usual questions (or rather, exclusions or specific contexts, etc).

A vague "who was the best" would only be useful in-era. We could do it by decade, though, that'd work. Top 5 each decade over the last 40 years?

bast I think is more interested in a defensive RPOY project, though I could be wrong.

It's my intention to have a thread discussing what projects we'd most like to participate in as the season winds down, and run a summer project. (Though if another mod wanted to run something, that would be fine too.)

As far as how far we'd go with a Top X defensive GOAT project, I was think 50, but if people only wanted 25 that'd be just fine by me. I would not consider going to 100.