Marvin Williams wants out

[HMFFL]

The feeling among some in Atlanta is that the Hawks' rotation was thrown out of whack by the return of Kirk Hinrich. The Hawks started the season 13-5 but have gone just 6-8 since Hinrich returned from shoulder surgery. Though he's struggled this season, one would think Hinrich could help a club if made available.

Frustration abounds in Atlanta right now, and sources say Marvin Williams wants out because he wants to play somewhere where he'll have an increased role offensively. Williams is averaging just 9.6 points per game, his lowest since his rookie season. http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_ ... ke-beasley

The feeling is mutual Marvin. I wanted you gone the day your name was called in the draft.

[NekiEcko]

I think he will get his wish besides this core needs to be blow up or something like that. Right now if the Play-offs starts today, we have to go against the 76ers, and we did a wonderful job against them. He can take JJ with him too.

[HMFFL]

We have the same "core" group that Billy Knight put together. BK is suppose to be a thing of the past but his team is still here and I am getting very tired of it.

[Social Lubrication]

I'm looking at his advanced stats and I like what I see on both sides of the ball. What's not showing up in the numbers?

I haven't watched him play very much and I know he hasn't lived up to his draft position, but he doesn't seem like a bad player.

[joe56755]

i dont think hes a bad player , but hes not worth the money he gets . and it hard watching deron williams and chris paul knowing the hawks could have had either instead of marvin . i think a change in teams could help him . i hope he and hinrich are traded soon .

[Rip2137]

Marvin's usage is just pathetic and its a function of this offense. Also, that first paragraph about the team chemistry being off since Kirk came back is a NO DUH type of thing. Drew has eliminated Pargo's minutes, reduced Teagues and to some extents eliminated T-macs all so that he can play Kirk who has been down right BAD.

I think that in the right situation, Marvin is going to be able to add alot. I would see if Golden State would bite on a Marvin for Biedriens trade.

Also, I would try and see if a Marvin/Zaza/Hinrich for Gasol and picks would work...I would think the Lakers would be able to get a better deal but who knows.

I know some are down on Gasol, but he would give us about the same production as all 3 of those guys combined, plus more rebounding. Sure, 4 years left on that contract is rough, but I think we owe Marvin and Zaza 4 more years too, so still...

[smittylo]

Marvin Gaye Williams, now you know you need a time out. Went to Portland and bought tickets for all 50 of his family and friends and played like boo boo. Now you want a trade. Sit down young fella.

[Rip2137]

He shot 5-7 and 2-4 from 3 in 24 minutes of action. Thats "boo boo" ?

He has gotten more than 10 shots in a game 4 times this year. He has gotten over 25 minutes 8 times this year. He simply isn't being used.

He is overpaid for his role and his role doesn't match his skills that he has already displayed at the NBA level. Not to mention the consistant "Josh or Joe miss the game, marvin plays really well" thing that kinda proves the point that without being the 5th option on offense he could produce something.

[MaceCase]

I remember Mr. H before he retired from message boards mentioned a loooong time ago that the Marvin resigning would be terrible if at the same time we decided to retain Joe and he's right. He came into the league as a slasher, post-up guy with a deadly mid range jumper and has been forced into being strictly a floor spacer who gets lucky to have two pindowns called for him in a game. The superstar talent isn't there but whatever is isn't being utilized due to there being other more important mouths to feed in the pecking order.

[fullcourt]

this is great, it always seems like Marvin doesn't care. nobody has a problem if Marvin becomes more aggressive on offense, especially with Horford out.

coming out of college, Marvin was suppose to be the next Carmelo Anthony, a 25ppg guy who gets to the line ten times a game.

with Joe out, Marvin better put his money were his mouth is, and play in the Knicks game and get +20 points.

for a guy who is suppose to be a high IQ guy, Hinrich really doesn't make anybody better and make alot of bonehead plays, and he doesn't have the athleticism or play making to make up for his bonehead plays. Hinrich is really hurting the team and pisssing Pargo, TMac, and Marvin off

[Ruhiel]

Weaknesses
Offensively, Marvin has only shown that he can score in one of four ways: open stand still jumpshots, lay-ups / dunks on fast breaks, put-backs and free throws. Marvin hasn’t shown he has the ability to put the ball on the floor and create his own shot consistently, whether it’s driving around a defender to get all the way to the rim or merely shooting off the dribble. If Marvin is going to be a great small forward in the NBA he will need to develop this part of his game. Also, Marvin has shown no post moves outside of trying to overpower his opponents with a drop-step toward the basket. When surrounded by defenders in the paint Marvin often gets his shot blocked because he has yet to show a jump hook, a fadeaway or an up-and-under move. In fact, Marvin’s best offensive move in the paint is trying to get to the free throw line. He will not be able to draw fouls easily against more experienced defenders. If Marvin is going to be a great power forward in the NBA he will need to develop this part of his game.

Defensively, Marvin still needs to improve his footwork to be able to guard quicker players on the perimeter and he needs to add some strength to guard some of the stronger players in the post. He also needs to improve his defensive communication, especially on pick and roll situations. While Marvin has the tools to be a good shotblocker we have yet to see it from him. Per minutes played, he was only equal to Jawad Williams and slightly behind Rashad McCants in this aspect of the game.

Here might lay the biggest question mark with Marvin. While his versatility can viewed as a strength, the fact he is still a bit of a tweener can not. Is he going to primarily play small forward or power forward in the NBA? Can he become great at one of the forward spots or will he merely be good at both? That’s the tough part about Marvin. At this point in his career it’s almost impossible to project just what kind of player he is going to be or what position he will end up playing the most.

From DraftExpress.com - 2005


We all know this is too good to be true. If he was 6'10 he'd be the perfect inside out big man. But he isn't. And he's the shameful part of the core reducing ability to capitalize on mismatches.
Lmao about opportunities. He still has the same weaknesses 7 years in.

Go kick rocks and good riddance!! Get me some Leuer or Renardo.

And here's the best celebration gif I could find. Lets be honest, his repertoire is garbage. Best news we've had all season. Get rid of this absolute bust of a tweener.

[Superiorblogman]

Trust me. Marvin, Teague, T-Mac, Pargo, Vlad Rad would probably all welcome a trade. The only reason Ivan would not is because he is just happy to be getting a NBA check.

[parson]

Marvin hasn’t shown he has the ability to put the ball on the floor and create his own shot consistently, whether it’s driving around a defender to get all the way to the rim or merely shooting off the dribble.

Wrong ... ridiculously wrong. Since you love videos, here: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNtwNpbPOCU[/youtube]

This was the first video I found. On it, you'll find several (as in, more than a handfull) of clips of Marvelous doing exactly what you said he hasn't demonstrated.

We use him in certain ways. That usage is Woodson and Drew's choice. Maybe it's his personality but he certainly can drive on defenders. I remember the CLE games when they defended him with Eyenga. I remember the MIL playoff series. And, of course, I remember the games when Joe and/or Horford and/or Smith couldn't play.

What's the matter? Did Horford's injury rob you of someone to hate on? You didn't used to hate on Marvelous so much.

[Andrew McCeltic]

I'm sure Minnesota would trade Darko and a nice steak dinner to get Williams.

[parson]

The REAL problem with Marvelous is his (recent) lack of vertical lift. He came into the association with a 11'11" vertical reach. That's only 3 inches less than Josh Smith's vertical reach. He was jumping 35" with a no-step vertical of 29.5.

He certainly aint got that now. What happened? It's easy to guess his back's the problem, but I don't know.

By the way, Marvelous's mutiny makes 2 players publicly wanting out. Drew is living on borrowed time.

The ASG needs to look in the mirror: they hired Woodson and they hired his clone. They chose to keep the philosophy almost identical to Woodson's. This is exactly the style of play they wanted.
How many times are we going to use Joe like Allen Iverson instead of Reggie Miller?
How many times are we going to use Jeff Teague like Mark Price instead of Derrick Rose?
How many more offenses will we concoct that put Marvelous over on the corner and tell him to stand there and be quiet?
I'm no longer blaming Smith for his long shots - it seems to be the design of our offense. The coaches may throw him to the wolves and claim they don't want him to shoot those shots, but in a perimeter offense, what other shots are there?

Our owners have a vision that stinks. Worse, it ignores the obvious talents of the players and forces square pegs into round holes.

[Rip2137]

Just to add on to what you said, when you look back in years like 2008 when Joe was either out or hobbled, Marvin was getting to the line 5-6 times per game. Back when they RAN PLAYS FOR HIM. When Josh Smith was injured and they put him at the 4, he was getting to the rim well too because he is a offensive mismatch against 4's.

To say marvin hasn't proven to have the ability to be a strong contributor in this league is just lying. He has continously shown the ability, but he also has consistantly been regulated to the 5th offensive option when honestly, Josh Smith should have been behind him in the offensive tier of this team. If you look at his numbers, 10, 5 44 percent from 3 all while only getting 7 shots a game and playing 24 minutes a game that honestly are so sporatic that they don't allow for him to get rhythm(same can be said for teague since Hinrich has come back).

Ruhiel has spent the whole year blaming the offensive and defensive woes of this team on a guy that plays 24 minutes a game, all while pining for worse players to come and replace him. Sometimes its a blessing that ownership doesn't listen to some of its fans.

Marvin hasn’t shown he has the ability to put the ball on the floor and create his own shot consistently, whether it’s driving around a defender to get all the way to the rim or merely shooting off the dribble.

Wrong ... ridiculously wrong. Since you love videos, here: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNtwNpbPOCU[/youtube]

This was the first video I found. On it, you'll find several (as in, more than a handfull) of clips of Marvelous doing exactly what you said he hasn't demonstrated.

We use him in certain ways. That usage is Woodson and Drew's choice. Maybe it's his personality but he certainly can drive on defenders. I remember the CLE games when they defended him with Eyenga. I remember the MIL playoff series. And, of course, I remember the games when Joe and/or Horford and/or Smith couldn't play.

What's the matter? Did Horford's injury rob you of someone to hate on? You didn't used to hate on Marvelous so much.

[Bucked19]

This would be nice

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=8595atz

[Ruhiel]

My goodness, are you guys serious? You guys are ridiculous to put outdated "season highlights mixes" to prove a point? Is that what I'm doing for the Hawks players?

How about current reality. Marvin Williams has gained 25 lbs since being drafted.

He comes off of weakside screens for the ball like Jamal used to do. Like Willie green does. Just like Joe Johnson does. Difference is Marvin Williams lack of handle.

The offense has opportunities, to post up, to come off a screen and iso/call your own play. Marvin would be better in a different offense (I see his best chance for signficantly improving is as a Pick and roll ballhandler).

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-hPJuLarXw[/youtube]

But what does Rich Jefferson do for Popovich? Same thing.

But this is a good conversation. yeah Teague should be used like Rose and Joe like Miller. but anyone want to compare Josh Smith to another 6'8 sf? Marvin and Josh are redundant and holding each other back its bad basketball.

We have clearly defined roles but the matchups aren't there. We play a run and jump sf at pf/center. So yes the team will have breakdowns.

here's Smith's 2008 draftexpress Overview & I still think some of it applies:

Josh Smith An elite run-jump athlete who is still polishing his other skills. One of the League’s most explosive leapers, and his length and height make him one of the game’s most impressive highlight-reel dunkers. Possesses ideal size for a small forward, and has improved his strength during his time in the NBA. Very fast for a player his height. Extremely versatile triple-double threat who makes an impact all over the court.

Yeah Smith is an ideal small forward but a bit too perimeter oriented to play power forward. Its a design of the roster as much as the offense. When are we going to do something about the fact Marvin/Smith are each better off with a pf than another sf?

[Rip2137]

Josh. Smith. Can. Not. Defend. The. Small. Forward. Position. Full. Time.

Also, you are suggesting "Hey, if we take our shot blocker and only intimidator at the rim, and move him out to defend perimeter players, we will totally be okay offensively."

Marvin Williams is
A: A better jumpshooter than Smith.
B: A better Ball handler than smith.

These two items simply cannot be disputed.

you can dispute C: A better defender of the SF postion.

I know, you disagree because you figure that if josh is good in a switch he could do it full time. I think that is insane, but to each their own.

Mehmet Okur has ideal size for a post up Center. Eric Gordon has ideal size for a Point Guard. Size does not equal reality.

[Ruhiel]

Josh. Smith. Can. Not. Defend. The. Small. Forward. Position. Full. Time.

But Marvin Williams can because he's 250 lbs slower and his clumsy frame attempting to navigate around screens always leads to Josh Smith switching onto Small Forwards anyways.

You've completely lost credibility when we had Marvin Williams and Josh Smith switch positions against the Orlando Magic and you couldn't respond.

Its literally been on the scouting report for years. Josh Smith is a better small forward than Marvin Williams. Its asinine to even debate.

Marvin Williams is
A: A worse passer than Smith.
B: A worse post player than Smith.
C: A worse rim runner in transition than Smith.
D: A worse ball handler in transition than Smith.
E: Uses his size worse defending the wing than Smith. He has slower feet.
F: A worse shot creator than Smith.
G: slower and less effective wing finisher in transition than Smith.
H: worse paint finisher than Smith
I: worse defensive rebounder (boxing out and pursuing) than Smith
J: worse offensive rebounder (weakside especially) than Smith


These 10 items simply cannot be disputed. Jump shooter can be disputed seeing as how he misses a ton of his 2 pt jumpers. 3 pt shooting, no. Ball handler? absolutely disputable.

The only reason Smith isnt at the SF full time is because, yeah we're scared we're losing a shot blocker/"intimidator at the rim".

Yet our defensive rating goes up with Smith at the SF.

We just got blown out 2 games in a row by size. Thats incredibly ridiculous. Josh Smith is a freak athlete that is athletic enough to come from help side and blocks shots no matter what. Lots of times those small forwards will try to drive on him and try to shoot over him (blocked shot) or penetrate and realize they cant score over him and try to pass out of his troublesome length (steal).

What we're doing is funneling help to him like he's Dwight Howard instead of Gerald wallace or Lebron.

With Smith at the wing PF/C has to hold ground and play good enough man to man defense for Smith to come help though. Josh Smith averages 2 blocks playing 35 minutes a game. His blocks could even go up.