Official Raptors 2012 NBA Draft Thread, Part 6

[ash_k]

I don't think Anthony Davis is a "clear cut #1". I think MKG will be the better pro.

As a SF?

He is not a shooting Guard

How does he matchup versus Granger, CAron Butler, Stephen Jackson size wise ( I dont want to bring up the LBJ and Carmelos of this world)

How does he match up offensively and defensively?

[raptor21_85]

if so, what should be do with Bargs??? (Reignman)

[ty123]

I don't think Anthony Davis is a "clear cut #1". I think MKG will be the better pro.

Really, I don't think you can make a case for anyone else as the #1 so it is clear cut.

I'm also pretty sure Barnes will go ahead of MKG.

If you want to project based on peripherals (size, skill, athleticism) then the only guys that look to have more potential at the #1 are Drummond and PJ3 but their on-court performances have been less than desireable.

Bradley Beal looks like a pretty sure thing on both sides of the ball. But what is potential? When you use size and length to evaluate potential instead of already existant skills you fall into trouble. When you look at his comparisons, KG and Tim Duncan, they were way more skilled right off the bat.

How many big guys with really good size and athleticism with limited offensive skillset actually reached their potential? I can't think of many.

[Reignman]

if so, what should be do with Bargs??? (Reignman)

Honestly, my gut instinct would be to trade him because we'd need to send out some talent to get some talent in return. Since we'd need a viable perimeter option trading him might be our best bet.

However, there is a whole lot of intrigue with a J Val / AD / Bargs frontcourt. Specifically the 2012 version of Bargs.

I guess we wouldn't have to rush into anything. We could move Ed and/or Amir to clear the glut and let the other 3 play while hoping a guy like Demar becomes a legit option from SG. But realistically, I don't think you roll with all 3 bigs long-term. You have to balance out some of the talent from a position of strength and Barg might have to go down the road.

That is until FAs start taking our team seriously and decide they could be the missing piece to our championship aspirations.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Never said "he had too much fat"

Was tryin to open you eyes about Body weight; being 228 doesnt mean you are strong.

With your own eyes, you can clearly see Wade is bigger and stronger than MKG but again Wade is 220 vs 228.

Same for George with your own eyes, you can clearly see he is bigger than MKG and again Paul George is listed at 210 vs MKG 228.

Looking at MKG during games; he has narrow shoulders too, looks very lanky out there

Looking at MKG during games, is he getting bullied on post-ups? Is he having troubling muscling his way into the paint and finishing? Is he having trouble grabbing rebounds in traffic or boxing guys out??? Does he struggle to fight through screens?

If you didn't say he had too much fat, than why did you claim his excellent weight for his size and age was due to body fat?

[sunny]

im starting to become a real big supporter of MKG. I'd definitely be happier with him on the raptors than Barnes.

I like both guys but I don't think I could take MKG over Barnes. Casey could probably get Barnes to play top level D (he is a decent defender already and has the body/length/size you want at the SF spot) but I don't see how he could help MKG get Barnes' jumper / offensive repetoire.

Barnes' jumper pushes him over the top. That jumper alone could make him a very high end offensive player.

I understand that Barnes will be picked earlier in the draft. I just will be happier if the raptors end up with MKG rather than Barnes.

[Reignman]

I don't think Anthony Davis is a "clear cut #1". I think MKG will be the better pro.

Really, I don't think you can make a case for anyone else as the #1 so it is clear cut.

I'm also pretty sure Barnes will go ahead of MKG.

If you want to project based on peripherals (size, skill, athleticism) then the only guys that look to have more potential at the #1 are Drummond and PJ3 but their on-court performances have been less than desireable.

Bradley Beal looks like a pretty sure thing on both sides of the ball. But what is potential? When you use size and length to evaluate potential instead of already existant skills you fall into trouble. When you look at his comparisons, KG and Tim Duncan, they were way more skilled right off the bat.

How many big guys with really good size and athleticism with limited offensive skillset actually reached their potential? I can't think of many.

I like Beal, in fact, I think I'm higher on him than Lamb but he definitely lacks the athleticism.

Size, skill and athleticism has always made scouts drool, that's been the case for a long long time and you're right that there have been many busts by going that route (I was huge fan of Hassan Whiteside at our pick a couple of years ago so I've fallen victim to it as well); however, teams will continue looking at those 3 things and PJ3/Drummond are at the top of that chart.


I'm not high on them but if some team did decide to go with another player over A Davis, it would likely be one of those guys. Unlikely, but those would be the 2.

[Reignman]

im starting to become a real big supporter of MKG. I'd definitely be happier with him on the raptors than Barnes.

I like both guys but I don't think I could take MKG over Barnes. Casey could probably get Barnes to play top level D (he is a decent defender already and has the body/length/size you want at the SF spot) but I don't see how he could help MKG get Barnes' jumper / offensive repetoire.

Barnes' jumper pushes him over the top. That jumper alone could make him a very high end offensive player.

I understand that Barnes will be picked earlier in the draft. I just will be happier if the raptors end up with MKG rather than Barnes.

They are 1a / 1b to me. Here's the thing, Barnes has great size and length for the SF spot. He's a decent defender as well (not MKG level but decent). I think Casey can mould Barnes into a high-level defender considering his work ethic and coachability.

Now here's the thing, Casey cannot get MKG Barnes' jumper. That jumper is going to be the difference between the two and IMO, Barnes could become an elite off-the-ball shooter. That jumper is a thing of beauty and you don't see it very often from prospects. Perfect form.

I also don't think we've seen Barnes' full offensive repetoire in Roy's system because it's PG initiated --->goes inside and then Barnes plays of that. From time to time Barnes loosens up and he'll make you say "did he just do that?". I think there's more than meets the eye there.

Again, this isn't a knock on MKG, I love what he brings but Barnes brings much more to the table on the offensive end and has the size to boot.

[ty123]

I just hope we don't end up getting first pick and picking a guy who wasn't the best player in the draft.

[Reignman]

I just hope we don't end up getting first pick and picking a guy who wasn't the best player in the draft.

Amen!

[gerrit4]

if so, what should be do with Bargs??? (Reignman)

Still don't quite understand the question. If next year we had Bargs, Jonas and AD, the two rookies would still have a potential of 30 minutes a game each - more than any rookie big man is playing this year.

If we get the #1 and draft Davis, he and Jonas will be the most foul prone front court in the league next year. That's not to say they won't have incredible potential together, but they won't be playing 40 minutes a game either.

When your team is as terrible as the Raptors, you should never draft based on position. I mean, if the Timberwolves had the #1 pick in the draft 3 years ago, would they have been crazy to draft Blake Griffen when they already had Kevin Love? The dropoff between Griffen and Tyreke Evans is pretty steep - today, you could trade Blake for any or all of the players on the Kings.

[Reignman]

Agreed, there would be no need to rush into a trade. You could just roll with all 3 for a season or 2 and then make a decision. Ed and/or Amir would likely have to go though.

[ash_k]

Never said "he had too much fat"

Was tryin to open you eyes about Body weight; being 228 doesnt mean you are strong.

With your own eyes, you can clearly see Wade is bigger and stronger than MKG but again Wade is 220 vs 228.

Same for George with your own eyes, you can clearly see he is bigger than MKG and again Paul George is listed at 210 vs MKG 228.

Looking at MKG during games; he has narrow shoulders too, looks very lanky out there

Looking at MKG during games, is he getting bullied on post-ups? Is he having troubling muscling his way into the paint and finishing? Is he having trouble grabbing rebounds in traffic or boxing guys out??? Does he struggle to fight through screens?

If you didn't say he had too much fat, than why did you claim his excellent weight for his size and age was due to body fat?

Going back to what I said earlier about you should talk to nutritionist and discover a thing or two about body fat...

Looking at MKG, does he overwhelm you with muscular shoulder? No..
Looking at the competition is up against.

MIss St (and others ) does not have Caron Butler, Stephen Jax, Granger, Wallace, Deng ( I am being careful not to bring up KD , LeBron and them)

How does he match up against those guys physically on both ends?

Barnes matches up with them just fine as a SF

Say no to MKG folks

[Marlo Stanfield]

If you end up with Davis it's no problem at all. Having a 4 big rotation is not a huge deal. Davis, Bargnani and Valanciunas get the most PT with Amir/Ed coming in to spell them when they're gassed. Then, as we've all assumed one of Ed/Amir are dealt for another piece. That would be the top big man rotation in the league if projections are accurate. And as was said before, you compliment them with shooting/slashing at the wings with a drive and kick, pick and roll beast at the point.

[sunny]

They are 1a / 1b to me. Here's the thing, Barnes has great size and length for the SF spot. He's a decent defender as well (not MKG level but decent). I think Casey can mould Barnes into a high-level defender considering his work ethic and coachability.

Now here's the thing, Casey cannot get MKG Barnes' jumper. That jumper is going to be the difference between the two and IMO, Barnes could become an elite off-the-ball shooter. That jumper is a thing of beauty and you don't see it very often from prospects. Perfect form.

I also don't think we've seen Barnes' full offensive repetoire in Roy's system because it's PG initiated --->goes inside and then Barnes plays of that. From time to time Barnes loosens up and he'll make you say "did he just do that?". I think there's more than meets the eye there.

Again, this isn't a knock on MKG, I love what he brings but Barnes brings much more to the table on the offensive end and has the size to boot.

What you are saying is true. However, I view Barnes as a guy with great fundamentals and tools that has the possibility of being molded into a great player. In contrast, I view MKG as a guy who has ability to impact the game on another level and create problems for the opposing teams. He sort of reminds me of a guy like Shawn Marion in the sense that they both cannot shoot, but manage to positively impact his teams offense in other ways.

[theocratic_n'_nature]

Picking Drummond would be silly, especially based on the premise that you already think AD will fail.

First off, I didn't say AD will fail, I said IN THE EVENT that neither does well their first year, we still have a better shot at trading for 2013 1st overall (ie Shabazz) with Drummond and our 2013 first than with a Davis and 2013.

Size, skill and athleticism has always made scouts drool, that's been the case for a long long time and you're right that there have been many busts by going that route (I was huge fan of Hassan Whiteside at our pick a couple of years ago so I've fallen victim to it as well); however, teams will continue looking at those 3 things and PJ3/Drummond are at the top of that chart.

I'm not high on them but if some team did decide to go with another player over A Davis, it would likely be one of those guys. Unlikely, but those would be the 2.

Wait, you just make fun of me because I wanted to take Drummond 1st overall?!? (And not even to keep, but to trade for Muhammad, which leads me to the last point...)

Here's the thing, if you can't have a Lebron, Kobe or Wade (we can't and their doesn't seem to be one in this draft) then you go the other way and put in a defensive front court that can make their life a living hell.

We can. Muhammad is in the next draft and is projected to be the next Kobe. So really the strategy I laid out is simple: Would you rather have Anthony Davis or Shabazz Muhammad?

[ash_k]

If you end up with Davis it's no problem at all. Having a 4 big rotation is not a huge deal. Davis, Bargnani and Valanciunas get the most PT with Amir/Ed coming in to spell them when they're gassed. Then, as we've all assumed one of Ed/Amir are dealt for another piece. That would be the top big man rotation in the league if projections are accurate. And as was said before, you compliment them with shooting/slashing at the wings with a drive and kick, pick and roll beast at the point.

I would even say if you get Anthony Davis then you trade both Amir and Ed.

Worst case Anthony D is Marcus Camby, he is way too long!

[Marlo Stanfield]

If you end up with Davis it's no problem at all. Having a 4 big rotation is not a huge deal. Davis, Bargnani and Valanciunas get the most PT with Amir/Ed coming in to spell them when they're gassed. Then, as we've all assumed one of Ed/Amir are dealt for another piece. That would be the top big man rotation in the league if projections are accurate. And as was said before, you compliment them with shooting/slashing at the wings with a drive and kick, pick and roll beast at the point.

I would even say if you get Anthony Davis then you trade both Amir and Ed.

Worst case Anthony D is Marcus Camby, he is way too long!

You have to keep one of them. What happens if someone gets hurt? Yea...

[Reignman]

Picking Drummond would be silly, especially based on the premise that you already think AD will fail.

First off, I didn't say AD will fail, I said IN THE EVENT that neither does well their first year, we still have a better shot at trading for 2013 1st overall (ie Shabazz) with Drummond and our 2013 first than with a Davis and 2013.

Size, skill and athleticism has always made scouts drool, that's been the case for a long long time and you're right that there have been many busts by going that route (I was huge fan of Hassan Whiteside at our pick a couple of years ago so I've fallen victim to it as well); however, teams will continue looking at those 3 things and PJ3/Drummond are at the top of that chart.

I'm not high on them but if some team did decide to go with another player over A Davis, it would likely be one of those guys. Unlikely, but those would be the 2.

Wait, you just make fun of me because I wanted to take Drummond 1st overall?!? (And not even to keep, but to trade for Muhammad, which leads me to the last point...)

Here's the thing, if you can't have a Lebron, Kobe or Wade (we can't and their doesn't seem to be one in this draft) then you go the other way and put in a defensive front court that can make their life a living hell.

We can. Muhammad is in the next draft and is projected to be the next Kobe. So really the strategy I laid out is simple: Would you rather have Anthony Davis or Shabazz Muhammad?

Look, the way I see it is this, if you have a chance to draft Davis you do it with your eyes closed. Nobody is close and I think there's a bit of a drop off after him. You don't risk missing on that because of the "next best thing".

I'll be honest, everyone is hyping Shabazz like crazy and there's absolutely no guarantee he becomes a franchise player. This happens all the time.

Demar was ranked #1 at one time
Jennings was ranked #1 as well.
Barnes came in with the greatest hype of all time.

Obviously these guys were all overhyped to a certain extent in HS. I mean, last summer all I could hear was Austin Rivers this, Austin Rivers that and now he looks like Jamaal Crawford to me.

If we get the #1, take Davis and worry abou tthe rest later. BTW, we won't be in contention for the #1 pick next year anyway, with or without our pick. The only way that happens is if our entire team gets injured.

[Man of Steel]

We can. Muhammad is in the next draft and is projected to be the next Kobe. So really the strategy I laid out is simple: Would you rather have Anthony Davis or Shabazz Muhammad?

It may seem like a simple decision, but in reality it's nowhere near as easy a decision as A. Davis vs. Shabazz. I'd do that trade in a heartbeat but how many GMs do you know that would trade a guy projected to be the next Kobe for A. Davis and a presumably low lottery pick?

Also, the hype around Shabazz is warranted given what we have seen but obviously we would want to see him play some college ball first. Barnes had similar hype (in terms of comparison) when he left high school and that's been dampened significantly, so take it with a grain of salt.