Ryan Braun tests positive for PED

Moderator: TyCobb

User avatar
trwi7
RealGM
Posts: 111,672
And1: 27,260
Joined: Jul 12, 2006
Location: Aussie bias
         

Re: Ryan Braun tests positive for PED 

Post#41 » by trwi7 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:44 pm

Synthetic testosterone that was three times higher than any player ever tested for yet he didn't get any bigger, stronger or faster which is what testosterone does.

MLB has been testing players for PEDs for several years now, I don't know exactly how many, but for this discussion, let's go with 8 years. Ryan Braun's urine sample tested for a level of testosterone that was THREE TIMES higher than ANYONE had ever tested for. While you consider this, don't forget, this would include any player who has been caught, and has served a suspension under this program.

What do you suppose was the recorded speed of the most egregious speed limit violator on I-90 over the last eight years? I'm sure the actual speed was much higher, but since we play nice here at Brewerfan, let's say that fastest speed was 100 MPH.

If a driver passed you on I-90, going three times faster than the fastest speed recorded in the last eight years, or in this case, 300 MPH....do you think you would have suspected this fella was speeding even without the help of law enforcement? Yes, of course you would...you would notice that this car was moving much faster than all of the other cars, even the naughty cars...you could see that for yourself, even if no one ever showed you a reading of the car's speed.

OK, so we're supposed to believe, that while Ryan Braun got no bigger, or stronger, or faster, or had any changes in mood or demeanor, he somehow DID have three times more testosterone in his body than any other MLB player has had in their body over the last eight years.

Not only do I find that completely implausible, I doubt it's scientifically possible.

Testosterone is intensely powerful, it produces a swift and measurable result, which is precisely why cheaters use the stuff. It completely defies logic to think that someone could cram THAT MUCH of the stuff into their body with no outward signs of it...in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it caused something on the level of cardiac arrest or stroke.

I realize, challenging the positive test result in itself would put the player in an almost "no win" situation, because the player bears the burden of proof...you'd get a highly scientific version of "is too, is not"...you'd also get a 50-game suspension. This is why Braun's team chose to attack the testing method, or in this case the chain of custody...and guess what, an independent arbitrator upheld the appeal...for reasons none of us have heard yet.

The bottom line is, for me, it is the test result itself that made me believe this was a "not guilty." Anyone with any understanding of hormone therapy would know...you simply cannot put a "fly me to the moon" level of testosterone in your body, without showing outward signs of it...testosterone is much more powerful than that.


Narveson declined to address what he knew about the specifics of Braun’s defense, but dismissed the idea that a technicality settled the case. He has a particular education on MLB’s testing policies because of his work with the union.

“If somebody mishandles a sample, that’s not just a technicality, that’s an error,” Narveson said. “I don’t know all of the details so I don’t want to comment too much. Put it this way: This isn’t the first time we’ve had issues with the people [in charge of testing] in Milwaukee. There have been other issues with timing.”


Once again, his teammates don't even know all the details. The only people that do know all the details are Braun, his legal team, the collector, Shyam Das and anyone else who was in the room during Braun's appeal. Why is anyone here acting like they know what happened?
stellation wrote:What's the difference between Gery Woelful and this glass of mineral water? The mineral water actually has a source."


I Hate Manure wrote:We look to be awful next season without Beasley.
User avatar
th87
RealGM
Posts: 11,531
And1: 13,440
Joined: Dec 04, 2005

Re: Ryan Braun tests positive for PED 

Post#42 » by th87 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:23 pm

GYBE wrote:
From the above article wrote:
“This,” one baseball official said, “is like a criminal getting off because he wasn’t read his Miranda rights.”




Not at all, because criminal law assumes innocence until proven guilty, whereas in this case, the burden of proof was on Braun to show that he should be exonerated. This means that he couldn't have established reasonable doubt to get off - he had to PROVE that something was up.

Also, didn't three Brewers test positive for even higher levels of testosterone, but the results were dismissed as being unrealistic? Seems like there were some irregularities all around, which is what Narveson seems to allude to.
User avatar
GYBE
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 9,000
And1: 358
Joined: Feb 14, 2005
Location: Kanada

Re: Ryan Braun tests positive for PED 

Post#43 » by GYBE » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:59 pm

trwi7 wrote:Synthetic testosterone that was three times higher than any player ever tested for yet


That's not what TJ Quinn of Outside the Lines reports.

TJ Quinn wrote:Re: Braun claim his 20-1 t/e ratio was 3X highest ever recorded: according to experts, have recorded as high as 70-1, and 20-1 not unusual


http://twitter.com/#!/TJQuinnESPN
Pharmcat
RealGM
Posts: 56,838
And1: 19,323
Joined: Oct 05, 2002

Re: Ryan Braun tests positive for PED 

Post#44 » by Pharmcat » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:02 pm

do we know for sure braun doesnt have a medical condition that wouldve caused a spike?
Image
User avatar
trwi7
RealGM
Posts: 111,672
And1: 27,260
Joined: Jul 12, 2006
Location: Aussie bias
         

Re: Ryan Braun tests positive for PED 

Post#45 » by trwi7 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:45 pm

GYBE wrote:
trwi7 wrote:Synthetic testosterone that was three times higher than any player ever tested for yet


That's not what TJ Quinn of Outside the Lines reports.

TJ Quinn wrote:Re: Braun claim his 20-1 t/e ratio was 3X highest ever recorded: according to experts, have recorded as high as 70-1, and 20-1 not unusual


http://twitter.com/#!/TJQuinnESPN


I'm not qualified to talk about this since I don't know a lot about this at all but this guy has been right on Braun from the moment the leak happened so I'll just post what he said about synthetic T.

No, you can't spontaneously sprout synthetic T in urine sample, but the test that "determines" that synthetic T is present does not actually find synthetic T in urine. What it does is identify the metabolites produced when T is used up by your body processes. It identifies them only by very precisely detemining when the remnants of those metabolites pass in front of a sensor after the urine sample has been literally turned into a gas. The gas rises up a tube and the different remnant rise at microscopically different rates. A sensor records data about these remnants as they pass by. This data is turned into a printout (though it can also be evaluated just as numbers). Then you look on your printout for a peak at a given "time" on the graph, you measure that peak and make a determination as to what that means.

Here's the catch. What if two different things are passing by the sensor at a give time? If you are predisposed to think that everything passing by that sensor at that specific time is indicative of synthetic T, you're going to get a big peak that looks like a lot of synthetic T that is actually only a mcuh smaller amounts of two different things. (And that small amount, for reasons alluded to in posts long ago, would not mean that there was a small amount of synthetic T, either. A determination of synthetic T being present can only be made by comparing ratios of different carbon ions, both of which are present in nature, and then making a statistical hypothesis that a certain ratio is "out of whack" with what would normally be expected in a given sample. It's diagnostic art and statistics as much as anything.

This is a vast oversimplification, but the point is that you don't "find' synthetic T waving back at you from under a microscope. These tests are extraordinarily complex in nature. Just reading this simplified version should provide further insight into why I say it's virtually impossible for the athlete to challenge the conclusion of the testers when they say they're right.
stellation wrote:What's the difference between Gery Woelful and this glass of mineral water? The mineral water actually has a source."


I Hate Manure wrote:We look to be awful next season without Beasley.

Return to The General MLB Board